After Death??

now faith · Dec 10, 2016

vinsight4u said:
Jonah drowned before the fish ate him.
He prayed from hell. God heard that prayer...
then later he prayed from inside the fish recalling
the account of the prior prayer.

Jonah: 2. 2. And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. -

The Text does not state that Jonah Died and went to Hell.
The Narrative is in the form of a metaphor.
Jonah still uses terminology such as belly ,Jonah is equating the Belly of the fish to Hell.
As a Marine might say after a battle it was Hell out there,it is not in the literal sense.

vinsight4u · Dec 10, 2016

now faith · Dec 15, 2016

Schripture ?

vinsight4u · Dec 15, 2016

/nvm.

now faith · Dec 19, 2016

Jonah: 1. 17. Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Jonah: 2. 1. Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, 2. And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. 3. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. 4. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. 5. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. 6. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. 7. When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple. 8. They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy. 9. But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD. 10. And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

God prepared the great fish to swallow Jonah.
Then Jonah prayed from the fishes belly.
The passage is in narritive but as long as we

ABlessedAnomaly · Dec 19, 2016

11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened—the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11-15 (NET)

What have we here?

v12a -- John saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. So did they all die at the exact same time?
v12b -- The books were opened, and another book. Seems they were closed prior. So this appears to be a moment.

v13 -- The sea gave up the dead that were in it, including Death and Hades, and each were judged. Biblically the sea is the grave. Death and Hades are people/beings (not places). They are the "guardians" that gave up these dead. These are the unsaved.

v14 -- Death and Hades -- persons! - are thrown into the lake of fire.

v15 -- all these who came out of the sea, whose names are not found in the book of life, are thrown into the lake of fire.

One event for the dead. They are in "holding," perhaps sleep, but likely not. For a reference consider:

Sheol below is stirred up about you,
ready to meet you when you arrive.
It rouses the spirits of the dead for you,
all the former leaders of the earth;
it makes all the former kings of the nations
rise from their thrones.
10 All of them respond to you, saying:
‘You too have become weak like us!
You have become just like us!
11 Your splendor has been brought down to Sheol,
as well as the sound of your stringed instruments.
You lie on a bed of maggots,
with a blanket of worms over you.
Isaiah 14:9-11 (NET)

Sheol is the grave. The [spiritually] dead arrive there. There are spirits of the dead there. Those who are there "respond to you." They are weakened. They lie on beds of maggots and worms crawl over them. Ick!

This is the sea that Death and Hades call forth the dead for Judgement.

---

The saved? Yes, I agree: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There is no wait, no sleep, no grave for the [spiritually] alive! Hallelujah!! Praise God!

wstu · Dec 21, 2016

Thanks Bob for your response, good things to chew on. See my comments below

ABlessedMan said:
11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened—the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11-15 (NET)

What have we here?

v12a -- John saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. So did they all die at the exact same time?

I would not think so, nothing in the verse would indicate that. From my study of this verse I believe this group is all the unsaved folks who chose not to except God's forgiveness

v12b -- The books were opened, and another book. Seems they were closed prior. So this appears to be a moment.

v13 -- The sea gave up the dead that were in it, including Death and Hades, and each were judged. Biblically the sea is the grave. Death and Hades are people/beings (not places). They are the "guardians" that gave up these dead. These are the unsaved.

My notes on this verse are lacking and I need to do some more digging. I find it interesting it says the "sea" AND "Death & Hades" so the dead are coming from multiple locations. I am leaning that the sea is the earth. Which makes sense but need to research whether the word "sea" is ever used that way in the bible. Will get back to you once I get into it more.

v14 -- Death and Hades -- persons! - are thrown into the lake of fire.

Not sure Death is a person so I will need help see that one. So, from that perspective I believe the unsaved waiting in Hades and the existence of death will be thrown..... Death will no longer be an issue for anyone

v15 -- all these who came out of the sea, whose names are not found in the book of life, are thrown into the lake of fire.

One event for the dead. They are in "holding," perhaps sleep, but likely not. For a reference consider:

Sheol below is stirred up about you,
ready to meet you when you arrive.
It rouses the spirits of the dead for you,
all the former leaders of the earth;
it makes all the former kings of the nations
rise from their thrones.
10 All of them respond to you, saying:
‘You too have become weak like us!
You have become just like us!
11 Your splendor has been brought down to Sheol,
as well as the sound of your stringed instruments.
You lie on a bed of maggots,
with a blanket of worms over you.
Isaiah 14:9-11 (NET)

Sheol is the grave. The [spiritually] dead arrive there. There are spirits of the dead there. Those who are there "respond to you." They are weakened. They lie on beds of maggots and worms crawl over them. Ick!

Interesting it says "spirits". 1 Peter 3:19 also notes that Jesus preached to spirits there. Per Eccl 12:7 it says the spirit goes back to God. So, with these two verses in mind I wonder since a Believer gets a new spirit when born again (2 Corinthians 5:17, Ezekiel 36:26) could it be that spirit goes back to God yet when a non-believer dies their spirit stays with them since they have not received a new renewed spirit.

This is the sea that Death and Hades call forth the dead for Judgement.

---

The saved? Yes, I agree: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There is no wait, no sleep, no grave for the [spiritually] alive! Hallelujah!! Praise God!

As far as I can see Eccl 12:7 is the only proof of that and you have to weight that with the many scriptures that say the opposite. But like someone mentioned in an early post and like I mentioned in my original post it really does not matter. We are good to go either way PRAISE GOD!!! I am just enjoying the research and discussion.

ABlessedAnomaly · Dec 21, 2016

wstu said:
Thanks Bob for your response, good things to chew on. See my comments below

Not sure Death is a person so I will need help see that one. So, from that perspective I believe the unsaved waiting in Hades and the existence of death will be thrown..... Death will no longer be an issue for anyone

I'm sure.

So I looked and here came a pale green horse! The name of the one who rode it was Death, and Hades followed right behind. They were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill its population with the sword, famine, and disease, and by the wild animals of the earth.
Revelation 6:8

Death and Hades rode horses. They are also given authority over a quarter of the earth. Authority is only given to persons.

Interesting it says "spirits". 1 Peter 3:19 also notes that Jesus preached to spirits there. Per Eccl 12:7 it says the spirit goes back to God. So, with these two verses in mind I wonder since a Believer gets a new spirit when born again (2 Corinthians 5:17, Ezekiel 36:26) could it be that spirit goes back to God yet when a non-believer dies their spirit stays with them since they have not received a new renewed spirit.

As I've quoted the unsaved dead have a conscience. And they are not with the Lord when shown in scripture.

As far as I can see Eccl 12:7 is the only proof of that and you have to weight that with the many scriptures that say the opposite. But like someone mentioned in an early post and like I mentioned in my original post it really does not matter. We are good to go either way PRAISE GOD!!! I am just enjoying the research and discussion.

That the saved goes immediately to the Lord? You quoted that, didn't you? "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." (2 Cor 5:8) You are your spirit and soul, not your body. Your spirit and soul will leave your body at death.

now faith · Dec 23, 2016

Well we have our Lord's account of ,the rich man and Lazarus.
This was prior to Christ preaching to the spirits in the days of Noah.
So leading captivity captive ,I suppose those in Christ go to Paradise.
This being based on Christ at the cross telling the thief beside him ( this day you will be with me in Paradise).
Soul sleep according to the S.D.A translates this passage to be a proclaimed statement .
I tell you today,would be their proof of soul sleep.
I nevertheless take it for what Christ said meaning today you will be with me in Paradise.

michael soh · Dec 23, 2016

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live

Back then we are asked to choose life over death. Jesus was send to remind us to choose. Have you chosen? Have you made your choice? Jesus prayed that we be kept in this world (John 17:15,20) Obviously it is His will that we stay, but it is a choice we have to make for ourselves.

Die but resurrected:
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

Never die but rapture up:
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Choose life and our Lord will take care of those who are death. Little is known about death, rightfully so. Because there is a lot of work to do here in this world (field) but workers are few.

hhodgson · Dec 25, 2016

now faith said:
As a Marine might say after a battle it was Hell out there, it is not in the literal sense.

This is good... for you should know since you have a couple of those "jarheads" in your family. They will be "always faithful" (Semper-Fi).

Thank you for this opening to my post here. This is a good time on CF Forums and every other Christian Forum to honor our beloved VETS stationed somewhere around the world, and... (in harms way), for many of them, as they have sacrificially answered the call for their service to our country. They are our "sons and daughters" who may be stationed abroad in a hostile environment going through lonely moments... in a lonely place, during a lonely time, and yes... (especially) during Christmas season.

They need to know that they are loved as they may be (at this moment) defending themselves in a foxhole. As I have seen during my tour of duty (69/70) in Vietnam... is that Christmas season was the worst of all major holidays that... (did not) stop the enemy from taking advantage of us (having one of those lonely moments) focusing on the holiday thinking about their family, friends, and loved ones who are safely back home celebrating Christmas with the rest of their family.

Please understand that it is not my intention here to paint a negative picture that may stimulate fear within ourselves concerning the safety of our troops being in harms way, but... "war is war." However, there is GOOD news.

So... as we are gathering around our Christmas trees with our families (in the comforts of our homes), sharing gifts with each other... Can we stop for a moment and offer up a big "thank you" to the Lord with a (prayer of faith) for their protection and safe return back home to their loved ones? I believe that ..."AS"... the very moment we are praying (Mark 11:23), God will find a way to comfort them, protect them, and show them that they are loved and being prayed for back home. God has assigned angels to minister to us, and as we pray for our (veterans), God releases them, on our behalf. (Hebrews 1:14). God even released His angel to help strengthen and comfort Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.

That's the good news. So, while your praying for our troops... just (believe) in what you "can't see" and (trust) God for a miracle for their safety. Is God able to do that? Absolutely! Many are saying that (Christians) praying and voting made the difference in the presidential election this year which they say was a miraculous intervention of God... and that God is using (Trump) as a modern day King Cyrus.

With all the chaos around our nation and the world with China asserting itself, Russia getting more aggressive in the Middle East and the growing threat of Iran, North Korea, the world is becoming increasingly dangerous and our country (United States of America) is going to have a challenge either way. One author in CHARISMA Magazine recently said, "With Trump, I believe we have a Cyrus to navigate through the storm" (Isaiah 45).

I believe God gives leaders even (non-Christians) "common grace" to be instruments of His purposes to fulfill His plan for mankind. God "anointed" King Cyrus for such a purpose and later in (Isaiah) He says, "I have even called you by your name ... though you have not known Me."

Here is just one other example out of many recorded in the Bible where God intervenes. We are told: God used Moses and he brought them forth…and there was not one feeble person among their tribes (Psalms 105:37). Can you imagine three million people all well and strong? Not one (feeble), not one (weak), and not one (sick)? (Deuteronomy 7:15). Forty years of wandering in the wilderness and their clothes and shoes did not wear out, not did their feet swell! God supplied supernatural food and drink! He can also do it for our troops stationed abroad.

As with God... who can prepare a table in the wilderness for them, He can do the same for our troops: (Psalms 78:19).

And... Let's not forget also to honor our returned vets who (many) may be suffering from experiencing traumatic events whether (in or out) of combat they have faced that also may include any injuries received during their deployment in the hostile environment they were sent to. Pray for them as they re-adjust back to their familiar surroundings.

Keep this in mind during this season... (in-between) Christmas and New Years... and on-going... to also pray for the "thousands" of our injured and disabled vets who may be spending their time in VA Hospitals and VA facilities across the country. If there is a VA facility or VA Hospital in your area... we would encourage anyone to stop in and thank them "for their service" to our country and, also... tell them Jesus Loves them. It WILL make their day...

now faith · Dec 28, 2016

hhodgson said:
This is good... for you should know since you have a couple of those "jarheads" in your family. They will be "always faithful" (Semper-Fi).

Thank you for this opening to my post here. This is a good time on CF Forums and every other Christian Forum to honor our beloved VETS stationed somewhere around the world, and... (in harms way), for many of them, as they have sacrificially answered the call for their service to our country. They are our "sons and daughters" who may be stationed abroad in a hostile environment going through lonely moments... in a lonely place, during a lonely time, and yes... (especially) during Christmas season.

They need to know that they are loved as they may be (at this moment) defending themselves in a foxhole. As I have seen during my tour of duty (69/70) in Vietnam... is that Christmas season was the worst of all major holidays that... (did not) stop the enemy from taking advantage of us (having one of those lonely moments) focusing on the holiday thinking about their family, friends, and loved ones who are safely back home celebrating Christmas with the rest of their family.

Please understand that it is not my intention here to paint a negative picture that may stimulate fear within ourselves concerning the safety of our troops being in harms way, but... "war is war." However, there is GOOD news.

So... as we are gathering around our Christmas trees with our families (in the comforts of our homes), sharing gifts with each other... Can we stop for a moment and offer up a big "thank you" to the Lord with a (prayer of faith) for their protection and safe return back home to their loved ones? I believe that ..."AS"... the very moment we are praying (Mark 11:23), God will find a way to comfort them, protect them, and show them that they are loved and being prayed for back home. God has assigned angels to minister to us, and as we pray for our (veterans), God releases them, on our behalf. (Hebrews 1:14). God even released His angel to help strengthen and comfort Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.

That's the good news. So, while your praying for our troops... just (believe) in what you "can't see" and (trust) God for a miracle for their safety. Is God able to do that? Absolutely! Many are saying that (Christians) praying and voting made the difference in the presidential election this year which they say was a miraculous intervention of God... and that God is using (Trump) as a modern day King Cyrus.

With all the chaos around our nation and the world with China asserting itself, Russia getting more aggressive in the Middle East and the growing threat of Iran, North Korea, the world is becoming increasingly dangerous and our country (United States of America) is going to have a challenge either way. One author in CHARISMA Magazine recently said, "With Trump, I believe we have a Cyrus to navigate through the storm" (Isaiah 45).

I believe God gives leaders even (non-Christians) "common grace" to be instruments of His purposes to fulfill His plan for mankind. God "anointed" King Cyrus for such a purpose and later in (Isaiah) He says, "I have even called you by your name ... though you have not known Me."

Here is just one other example out of many recorded in the Bible where God intervenes. We are told: God used Moses and he brought them forth…and there was not one feeble person among their tribes (Psalms 105:37). Can you imagine three million people all well and strong? Not one (feeble), not one (weak), and not one (sick)? (Deuteronomy 7:15). Forty years of wandering in the wilderness and their clothes and shoes did not wear out, not did their feet swell! God supplied supernatural food and drink! He can also do it for our troops stationed abroad.

As with God... who can prepare a table in the wilderness for them, He can do the same for our troops: (Psalms 78:19).

And... Let's not forget also to honor our returned vets who (many) may be suffering from experiencing traumatic events whether (in or out) of combat they have faced that also may include any injuries received during their deployment in the hostile environment they were sent to. Pray for them as they re-adjust back to their familiar surroundings.

Keep this in mind during this season... (in-between) Christmas and New Years... and on-going... to also pray for the "thousands" of our injured and disabled vets who may be spending their time in VA Hospitals and VA facilities across the country. If there is a VA facility or VA Hospital in your area... we would encourage anyone to stop in and thank them "for their service" to our country and, also... tell them Jesus Loves them. It WILL make their day...

Amen ,my friend.
Our last one is home safe,and He and The Wife had a baby girl at year ago.
As civilian's we have no idea of the hard times our boys went through.
But you know and for that I thank you Sir.

now faith · Dec 28, 2016

ABlessedMan said:
I'm sure.

So I looked and here came a pale green horse! The name of the one who rode it was Death, and Hades followed right behind. They were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill its population with the sword, famine, and disease, and by the wild animals of the earth.
Revelation 6:8

Death and Hades rode horses. They are also given authority over a quarter of the earth. Authority is only given to persons.

As I've quoted the unsaved dead have a conscience. And they are not with the Lord when shown in scripture.

That the saved goes immediately to the Lord? You quoted that, didn't you? "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." (2 Cor 5:8) You are your spirit and soul, not your body. Your spirit and soul will leave your body at death.

I have a question: who is Apollyon?
He is referred to as the Angel of the bottomless pit.

Revelation: 9. 11. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
In the Hebrew the name is a place as well.
It is mentioned in Proverbs and Job.
??

ABlessedAnomaly · Dec 29, 2016

now faith said:
I have a question: who is Apollyon?
He is referred to as the Angel of the bottomless pit.

Revelation: 9. 11. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
In the Hebrew the name is a place as well.
It is mentioned in Proverbs and Job.
??

Yikes!

My original response was more specifically about Revelation 20 and the Great White Throne Judgement. Here Death and Hades are persons.

Hades is certainly used in scripture as both a place and a person. When as a place it is a Greek reference to the Hebrew Sheol; and is further compartmentalized as Paradise and the Place of Torment. So instead of expanding this and trying to cover all the bases, let's follow your specific question: Apollyon.

Apollyon is the Greek name for an angel that guards the abyss, or the bottomless pit. In Hebrew his name is Abaddon. Abaddon can also be used as a place: the place of destruction; or as an act: the act of destruction; or as a person: the destroyer.

There are some who would say this is Satan. But slow down a bit and consider:

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.
Revelation 20:1-3

An angel with the keys to the bottomless pit. Apollyon! He seals the serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, into the bottomless pit.

So could Apollyon, the destroyer, actually be an Angel of God?

Matthew Henry believed this angel to be the Antichrist; some identify the angel as Satan. The Methodists believe it to be an angel of God. I'm not Methodist (by a long shot) but I agree with this latter.

For instance, note:

For the Lord will pass through to strike Egypt, and when he sees the blood on the top of the doorframe and the two side posts, then the Lord will pass over the door, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you.
Exodus 12:23

So is "the destroyer" actually Apollyon (Abaddon)? The Lord passed through Egypt and either allowed or did not allow the destroyer to strike. It's an interesting line of thought.

And again, in scripture Abaddon is sometimes used simply as (an act of or a place of) destruction.

There is a LOT here to study and take in. Not necessarily easy answers.

now faith · Dec 29, 2016

Sorry to go off topic,but when a Blessed Man is in the house
You have to ask a hard question or 5.
Thank You,my friend God Bless your New Year.

I agree with your assessment of this being ,to be a type of warrior from God.
A very powerful one to sling the devil back to hell and lock him up.
Another event of great power was brought by a Angel of death.

2 Kings: 19. 34. For I will defend this city, to save it, for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake. 35. And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

wstu · Jan 9, 2017

ABlessedMan said:
I'm sure.

So I looked and here came a pale green horse! The name of the one who rode it was Death, and Hades followed right behind. They were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill its population with the sword, famine, and disease, and by the wild animals of the earth.
Revelation 6:8

Death and Hades rode horses. They are also given authority over a quarter of the earth. Authority is only given to persons.

I have to agree with you on this, cannot argue with the Word :- ) It is my understanding that in the Jewish culture they often called a group of people as the area they came from. Example Matt 3:4 but I think that is pretty weak

ABlessedMan said:
As I've quoted the unsaved dead have a conscience. And they are not with the Lord when shown in scripture.

Totally agree, I think the scriptures are clear on that

ABlessedMan said:
That the saved goes immediately to the Lord? You quoted that, didn't you? "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." (2 Cor 5:8) You are your spirit and soul, not your body. Your spirit and soul will leave your body at death.

Regarding 2 Cor 5:8 i mentioned this from article I found
The passage does not read, "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Neither does it read, "absent from the body, present with the Lord." It reads, "absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." It states nothing about when or how believers get to be with the Lord. Believers have a living hope but that hope is not death. It is the return of Jesus Christ from Heaven. The context of this passage is plainly dealing with things that will happen when He returns.

Also, I found in the last couple days 2 Cor 12:2-4 which mentions that John saw Paradise in the 3rd heaven and that vision (or whatever it was) was will after the resurrection . This seems like after the resurrection Paradise was moved there and no longer is with Sheol in the center of the earth Mt 12:40, Isa 14:9

So, if that is true, why would God move it to His realm and not use it as a holding place for the righteous dead?

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, been really really busy lately.

now faith · Jan 9, 2017

2 Corinthians: 5. 8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

And is a conjuction in grammer.

Here is the Webster definition of a conjuction :
noun

1.
GRAMMAR
a word used to connect clauses or sentences or to coordinate words in the same clause (e.g., and, but, if ).
2.
the action or an instance of two or more events or things occurring at the same point in time or space.
"a conjunction of favorable political and economic circumstances"
synonyms: co-occurrence, concurrence, coincidence, coexistence, simultaneity, contemporaneity, concomitance, synchronicity, synchrony
"a conjunction of planets"

Now why without it being stated ,would someone think there is a delay in time ,when absent from the body?
A conjuction is added to mean the opposite, and tells us it is occurring in the same time period.

Ecclesiastes: 12. 6. Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 8. Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

now faith · Jan 9, 2017

Ephesians: 4. 8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Peter: 3. 18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

ABlessedAnomaly · Jan 17, 2017

wstu said:
Regarding 2 Cor 5:8 i mentioned this from article I found
The passage does not read, "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Neither does it read, "absent from the body, present with the Lord." It reads, "absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." It states nothing about when or how believers get to be with the Lord. Believers have a living hope but that hope is not death. It is the return of Jesus Christ from Heaven. The context of this passage is plainly dealing with things that will happen when He returns.

I think you are leaning on English translations a little too much here.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8

Looking at context and the juxtaposition of verse 6 and verse 8.

Verse 6 says that "while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord." Immediate condition. We can be only one or the other.

Verse 8 is the juxtaposition of that -- being "absent from the body and [thus] present with the Lord."

The word "and" is kai in the Greek. It can be rendered as "and"; also it can be rendered as: also, even, then, so, likewise.

Further, if one is absent from the body -- assuming that we don't join the Lord until He returns -- just where do we go?

Also, I found in the last couple days 2 Cor 12:2-4 which mentions that John saw Paradise in the 3rd heaven and that vision (or whatever it was) was will after the resurrection . This seems like after the resurrection Paradise was moved there and no longer is with Sheol in the center of the earth Mt 12:40, Isa 14:9

This is true.

Paradise is shown in the story of Lazarus and the rich man to be in a holding place in Sheol. Abraham and Lazarus are obviously shown in a safe place. But they can see across the abyss into the fires of hell at the rich man. When stories as such name people by name they are truthful accounts; when stories do not name names they are parables. This seems consistent throughout scripture.

So Jesus on the cross looks to the thief and says: "Today you wlll be with Me in Paradise." But we know from the account of Jesus coming from the tomb on resurrection day and talking with Mary, that He had not yet ascended to His Father in Heaven. This was on the third day of the crucifixion.

So where is Paradise? Well, in Sheol. Jesus died on the cross and descended. Scripture tells us as much:

9 Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Ephesians 4:9

He descended first. He proclaimed victory to the spirits in bondage (1 Pet 3:19). He took our sins to the wilderness (longer teaching about the atonement (Lev 16) and the results of the cross (Heb 9). And when this was completed He led the captives free.

Paradise was originally the Garden of Eden. The Tree of Life was there. In Revelation we see the Tree of Life in Heaven (Rev 2:7, 22:2, 14).

Jesus died on the cross and met the thief in Paradise in the midst of Sheol. Today. On the third day He rose and took the captives free to Paradise in Heaven.

So, if that is true, why would God move it to His realm and not use it as a holding place for the righteous dead?

I can't speak to the "why," but I can tell you that nowhere in scripture do we see such a concept. Heaven is about being free, not held captive in a holding pen.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, been really really busy lately.

No worries. As you can see, I suffer from the busies too.

ABlessedAnomaly · Jan 17, 2017

now faith said:
Ephesians: 4. 8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Peter: 3. 18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Amen x2.

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