Proof "Queen of Heaven" IS actually Pagan. And Mary was NOT sinless.

justinangel said:

What gives you the idea that I'm implying that?

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I am not stating that you believe those things, but that they are very probable implications that could be reached if one desired to do so.

bbbbbbb said:

Well, we can do that for most female characters in the Bible. For example, we could say that Mary is a type of Deborah or Ruth or Orpah or Naomi or Esther.

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Actually the ancient Hebrew heroines prefigure Mary in God's plan of salvation. Or don't you believe in the blood of the new and everlasting covenant?

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justinangel said:

What commonalities would these be? And what Scriptural passages are there that equate the two in salvation history? It appears the Fathers and Doctors of the Church couldn't see any significant parallel between the two. So how is it easy for you?

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There are precisely as many passages that equate King David and Jesus Christ as there are that equate Sarah and Mary - zero to be exact.

The commonalities between King David and Jesus Christ are as follow:

David was the first king of Israel to whom God promised that his throne would last forever. Jesus Christ is the last king of the Davidic line and his throne is eternal, according to the promise made to David.

David was called by God prophetically as a priest after the order of Melchezidek (Psalm 110) and Jesus Christ is the eternal High Priest after the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7-10)

David was the shepherd of God's people, Israel. Jesus is the Shepherd of God's people, the Church.

David was called by God as being a man after God's own heart. Jesus is the true Man after God's own heart.

There are many messianic psalms which were written concerning David, but prophetically also apply to Jesus Christ.

Would you like me to continue?

justinangel said:

Actually the ancient Hebrew heroines prefigure Mary in God's plan of salvation. Or don't you believe in the blood of the new and everlasting covenant?

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We are in agreement, I see.

bbbbbbb said:

I am not stating that you believe those things, but that they are very probable implications that could be reached if one desired to do so.

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People can draw conjectures, but not create implications. These exist extrinsically of ourselves in the objects of the intellect. But we have no reason to conjecture that Mary demonstrated a lack of faith simply by reading the Gospels. Zechariah doubted, and so God struck him mute (Lk. 1:20). Elizabeth, on the other hand, praised Mary for having believed in the word of the Lord (Lk. 1:45). And Jesus alluded to the Annunciation when he told the woman in the crowd, "Blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it" (Lk. 11:28). Mary was more blessed for her faith than she was in birthing and nurturing Jesus. In the same way as we draw a parallel between Mary and Sarah, we can safely typify Jesus with David in spite of the latter's sinfulness. The NT makes it clear that Jesus was without sin. 'Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him' (2 Cor. 5:21). Certainly, you see Jesus as David's anti-type. Do you think that by drawing a parallel between the two, we risk conjecturing Jesus committed mortal sins? I should think not. In Biblical typology, the similarities between two subjects don't have to be completely identical. Mary can be designated as the new Ark of the Covenant without necessarily being made of acacia wood and ornamented with gold, though these natural substances symbolize her "exemption from putridity and corruption" (cf. Lk 1:28, 46). (St. Hippolytus, d.235). The same can be said for Jesus' body which resembled a form of the Ark, according to the same Church Father. 'In him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily' (Col. 2:9).

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bbbbbbb said:

There are precisely as many passages that equate King David and Jesus Christ as there are that equate Sarah and Mary - zero to be exact.

The commonalities between King David and Jesus Christ are as follow:

David was the first king of Israel to whom God promised that his throne would last forever. Jesus Christ is the last king of the Davidic line and his throne is eternal, according to the promise made to David.

David was called by God prophetically as a priest after the order of Melchezidek (Psalm 110) and Jesus Christ is the eternal High Priest after the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7-10)

David was the shepherd of God's people, Israel. Jesus is the Shepherd of God's people, the Church.

David was called by God as being a man after God's own heart. Jesus is the true Man after God's own heart.

There are many messianic psalms which were written concerning David, but prophetically also apply to Jesus Christ.

Would you like me to continue?

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What are the commonalities between Mary and David which you claimed you could cite from the Scriptures? I don't disagree that Jesus is David's anti-type. Yet you seem to imply that we can just as easily typify Mary with Eve, Sarah, and the Ark as we could with David to suit our purpose. But I'm afraid there is no significant parallel between Mary and David in the economy of salvation. There is, though, with respect to Eve, Sarah, and the Ark.

You may continue if you promise to stay on track and make sense.

To see how Mary is Sarah's anti-type, please read my blog. At least make an honest effort to try to understand instead of simply wishing not to believe it.

https://blessedaboveallwomen.co/2016/04/04/behold-thy-mother/

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justinangel said:

What are the commonalities between Mary and David which you claimed you could cite from the Scriptures? I don't disagree that Jesus is David's anti-type. Yet you seem to imply that we can just as easily typify Mary with Eve, Sarah, and the Ark as we could with David to suit our purpose. But I'm afraid there is no significant parallel between Mary and David in the economy of salvation. There is, though, with respect to Eve, Sarah, and the Ark.

You may continue if you promise to stay on track and make sense.

To see how Mary is Sarah's anti-type, please read my blog. At least make an honest effort to try to understand instead of simply wishing not to believe it.

https://blessedaboveallwomen.co/2016/04/04/behold-thy-mother/

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There are a number of commonalities between Mary and David.

First, there is the genealogical record. Mary and David stand at both ends of the Davidic lineage.

Second, both deeply loved God in ways that were vastly superior to most other people.

Third, both were sinners uniquely saved by God's grace.

So, there you have three distinct correlationships. Do you need more?

bbbbbbb said:

There are a number of commonalities between Mary and David.

First, there is the genealogical record. Mary and David stand at both ends of the Davidic lineage.

Second, both deeply loved God in ways that were vastly superior to most other people.

Third, both were sinners uniquely saved by God's grace.

So, there you have three distinct co-relationships. Do you need more?

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Typology is the method we use to understand the historical and theological relationships between people and events recorded in Sacred Scripture. None of the criteria above form any Biblical typology between the two in the proper sense of the term.

1. Being a descendant of David doesn't make Mary a type of David. It just make her his descendant. Mary and David do stand at each end of the royal lineage, but this is purely incidental with respect to Mary. The important thing is that she is the mother of Jesus who has inherited the throne of his regal ancestor. Mary is a type of Queen Mother (Gebirah) in the kingdom of heaven, whereas Jesus is a type of the Davidic king.

2. We all should love God and be people after His own heart, but by doing so that doesn't make us types of David in the economy of salvation.

3. David wasn't immaculately conceived preserved free from the stain of original sin and all personal sins by virtue of being the King of Israel. Mary was by virtue of being the Mother of God. David relied on God's grace, but chose to sin. Mary relied on God's grace, but chose not to sin by the influence of His grace.


Shall I go on?

https://blessedaboveallwomen.co/2016/04/13/hail-full-of-grace/

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justinangel said:

Typology is the method we use to understand the historical and theological relationships between people and events recorded in Sacred Scripture. None of the criteria above form any Biblical typology between the two in the proper sense of the term.

1. Being a descendant of David doesn't make Mary a type of David. It just make her his descendant. Mary and David do stand at each end of the royal lineage, but this is purely incidental with respect to Mary. The important thing is that she is the mother of Jesus who has inherited the throne of his regal ancestor. Mary is a type of Queen Mother (Gebirah) in the kingdom of heaven, whereas Jesus is a type of the Davidic king.

2. We all should love God and be people after His own heart, but by doing so that doesn't make us types of David in the economy of salvation.

3. David wasn't immaculately conceived preserved free from the stain of original sin and all personal sins by virtue of being the King of Israel. Mary was by virtue of being the Mother of God. David relied on God's grace, but chose to sin. Mary relied on God's grace, but chose not to sin by the influence of His grace.


Shall I go on?

https://blessedaboveallwomen.co/2016/04/13/hail-full-of-grace/

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The Queen Mother is a Catholic innovation as such a person is never described in the Bible. It is about as valid as making a city gate into an anatomical feature.

bbbbbbb said:

The Queen Mother is a Catholic innovation as such a person is never described in the Bible. It is about as valid as making a city gate into an anatomical feature.

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King Solomon wasn't a Catholic.

'The Gebirah, the Queen Mother of the Kingdom of Judah, was an official position held by the mother of the Davidic kings. She was the most important and influential woman in the royal court and the king's chief councilor. The Hebrew word gebirah is found 15 times in the Old Testament and can be translated as "Queen Mother," or "Great Lady" [Genesis 16:4, 8, 9, 1 Kings 11:19 (used for the Egyptian Queen Mother); 15:13; 2 Kings 5:3; 10:13; 2 Chronicles 15:16; Psalm 123:2; Proverbs 30:23; Isaiah 24:2; 47:5, 7; Jeremiah 13:18; 29:2]. In Sacred Scripture the mother of the Davidic king is listed along with her son in the books of 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles when he assumes the throne. The only queen mother not listed are those of King Jehoram, who married wicked Athaliah, daughter of Ahab and Jezebel of Israel [2 Kings 8:17-18]; King Ahaz [2 Kings 16:2-3]; and King Asa [1 Kings 15:10]. In the case of Jehoram and Ahaz, their mothers may have died prior to their sons assuming the throne of David, and in the case of Asa, his grandmother is named as the Gebirah, his mother having died or perhaps his grandmother, the former Gebirah, did not relinquish her power and authority upon the succession of her grandson. Scripture indicates that the Gebirah assumed a throne alongside her son [see 1 Kings 2:19] and exercised her role as counselor [2 Chronicles 22:3] and intercessor to the king [1 Kings 2:13-21]. In times of conquest, both the king and his mother represented royal power [2 Kings 24:12]. The Gebirah was clearly the most important woman in the Kingdom of Judah; a king had many wives, but only one mother. The Gebirah of the eternal Davidic Kingdom of Jesus Christ is Mary of Nazareth. She appears in this role in Revelation 12:1. The institution of the Gebirah was not practiced in the Northern Kingdom. The mothers of those kings are not listed in Scripture.'

http://agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Institution of the Gebirah.htm

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justinangel said:

King Solomon wasn't a Catholic.

'The Gebirah, the Queen Mother of the Kingdom of Judah, was an official position held by the mother of the Davidic kings. She was the most important and influential woman in the royal court and the king's chief councilor. The Hebrew word gebirah is found 15 times in the Old Testament and can be translated as "Queen Mother," or "Great Lady" [Genesis 16:4, 8, 9, 1 Kings 11:19 (used for the Egyptian Queen Mother); 15:13; 2 Kings 5:3; 10:13; 2 Chronicles 15:16; Psalm 123:2; Proverbs 30:23; Isaiah 24:2; 47:5, 7; Jeremiah 13:18; 29:2]. In Sacred Scripture the mother of the Davidic king is listed along with her son in the books of 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles when he assumes the throne. The only queen mother not listed are those of King Jehoram, who married wicked Athaliah, daughter of Ahab and Jezebel of Israel [2 Kings 8:17-18]; King Ahaz [2 Kings 16:2-3]; and King Asa [1 Kings 15:10]. In the case of Jehoram and Ahaz, their mothers may have died prior to their sons assuming the throne of David, and in the case of Asa, his grandmother is named as the Gebirah, his mother having died or perhaps his grandmother, the former Gebirah, did not relinquish her power and authority upon the succession of her grandson. Scripture indicates that the Gebirah assumed a throne alongside her son [see 1 Kings 2:19] and exercised her role as counselor [2 Chronicles 22:3] and intercessor to the king [1 Kings 2:13-21]. In times of conquest, both the king and his mother represented royal power [2 Kings 24:12]. The Gebirah was clearly the most important woman in the Kingdom of Judah; a king had many wives, but only one mother. The Gebirah of the eternal Davidic Kingdom of Jesus Christ is Mary of Nazareth. She appears in this role in Revelation 12:1. The institution of the Gebirah was not practiced in the Northern Kingdom. The mothers of those kings are not listed in Scripture.'

http://agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Institution of the Gebirah.htm

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Wow! Bathsheba, who was hardly the first nor the most significant of David's wives, is now aggrandized as the Great and Magnificent Queen Mother, the antetype of Mary. The fact that kings had mothers hardly means that this was an office. The king reigned supreme. In fact, if you take a king such as Ahab, his wife (not his mother), Jezebel, exercised far more control over the kingdom than Bathsheba ever did during Solomon's reign. Speaking of Solomon, there is the ticklish situation concerning Jeroboam and Rehoboam, both of whom, oddly, had mothers, but not the same mother. Solomon set the record for the number of wives and concubines. Which of these was the "Queen Mother" who was responsible for the divided kingdom?

Back to Jezebel, we don't see Catholics making anything out of the office of Queen in the Old Testament, although Mary is lauded as Queen of Heaven and not as Queen Mother of Heaven. If Mary is the Mother of God ought not her title be Queen Mother of Heaven and not Queen of Heaven. The clear implication of the title of Queen is that the Queen is either sole monarch, as in the case of Queen Elizabeth I, or is the wife of the King. If Mary is Queen, who is her husband?

bbbbbbb said:

Wow! Bathsheba, who was hardly the first nor the most significant of David's wives, is now aggrandized as the Great and Magnificent Queen Mother, the antitype of Mary. The fact that kings had mothers hardly means that this was an office. The king reigned supreme.

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Bathsheba must have been the most significant of David's wives, since it was her son Solomon who ascended to the throne.

In 1 Kings, we see that the Gebirah sat on a throne alongside her son and had a role as counsellor and intercessor to the king.

Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand. Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay. - 1 Kings 2, 19-20

But to sit on my right hand, or on my left, is not mine to give to you, but to them for whom it is prepared. - Mark 10, 40

And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye. - John 2, 3-5

The title Gebirah (גְּבִירָה ) occurs 6 times in the OT. The word is literally defined a "queen" or "great lady". It's short definition is "queen mother " since the queen was the king's mother, not his wife. The NASB has translated Gebirah "queen mother".

In John 2:4, the Greek word for woman is γύναι (gunai) meaning "my lady". Here it doesn't mean "wife". But it could also mean "woman" in the generic sense if Jesus is implicitly referring to his mother as Eve's anti-type (cf. Luke 1:42) besides our heavenly queen.

And also Maachah his mother, even her he removed from being queen (Gebirah), because she had made an idol in a grove; and Asa destroyed her idol, and burnt it by the brook Kidron.
- 1 Kings 15, 13 [KJB]

Say unto the king and to the queen, Humble yourselves, sit down: for your principalities shall come down, even the crown of your glory.
- Jeremiah 13, 18

Now these are the words of the letter which Jeremias, the prophet sent from Jerusalem to the residue of the ancients that were carried into captivity, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people, whom Nabuchodonosor had carried away from Jerusalem to Babylon: After that Jechonias the king, and the queen, and the eunuchs, and the princes of Juda, and of Jerusalem, and the craftsman, and the engravers were departed out of Jerusalem. - Jeremiah 29, 1-2

The king and the queen: Jehoiachin, and his mother Nehushta, of the southern kingdom of Judah, as it is generally interpreted by Jewish commentators, who, with many princes and officers, were carried captive into Babylon (2 kings 24:12).

The only queen mothers not chronicled among the rulers of Judah and their mothers are those of King Jehoram, who married wicked Athaliah, daughter of Ahab and Jezebel of Israel [2 Kings 8:17-18]; King Ahaz [2 Kings 16:2-3]; and King Asa [1 Kings 15:10]. In the case of Jehoram and Ahaz, their mothers may have died prior to their sons assuming the throne of David, and in the case of Asa, his grandmother is named as the Gebirah, his mother having died or perhaps his grandmother, the former Gebirah, did not relinquish her power and authority upon the succession of her grandson.

In times of conquest, both the king and his mother represented royal power. Notice that the king's wives aren't mentioned at all as part of the state's governing apparatus.

And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign. - Kings 24, 12

In fact, if you take a king such as Ahab, his wife (not his mother), Jezebel, exercised far more control over the kingdom than Bathsheba ever did during Solomon's reign.

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Non sequitur. Jezebel married King Ahab of the Northern Kingdom, Israel, during the time when ancient Israel was divided into Israel in the north and Judah in the south. The institution of the Gebirah was not preserved in the Northern Kingdom after the rebellion of the 10 northern tribes against Rehoboam and the division of the united monarchy of Israel.

And thou Bethlehem the land of Judah art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come forth the leader that shall rule my people Israel.
- Matthew 2, 6

Speaking of Solomon, there is the ticklish situation concerning Jeroboam and Rehoboam, both of whom, oddly, had mothers, but not the same mother. Solomon set the record for the number of wives and concubines. Which of these was the "Queen Mother" who was responsible for the divided kingdom?

Click to expand...

Niether did Solomon and Adonijah have the same mothers, but since Solomon ascended to the throne, his mother Bathsheba became queen by virtue of being his mother. Adojinah's mother was Haggith, one of David's other wives. I suppose we can say that she was more like a princess. Rehoboam was an Israelite king. According to I Kings and II Chronicles, he was initially king of the united monarchy of Israel, but after the ten northern tribes of Israel rebelled (932/931 BC) to form the independent northern Kingdom of Israel (Samaria), he remained as king of only the Kingdom of Judah, the southern kingdom. He was a son of Solomon and a grandson of David. His mother was Namath the Ammonite. He is the first monarch listed among the 20 kings and queen mothers in the chronicle of the rulers of Judah from after Solomon's reign and as his lawful successor. His son Abuja, who succeeded him to the throne, was born in Judah, where Jesus was born. Jeroboam I was the first king of the northern Kingdom of Israel after the revolt of the ten northern Israelite tribes against Rehoboam that put an end to the united monarchy under his lawful rule.

The Samaritans occupied the northern country formerly belonging to the tribe of Ephraim and the half-tribe of Manasseh. The capital of the country was Samaria, formerly a large and splendid city. When the ten tribes were carried away into captivity to Assyria, the king of Assyria sent people from Cutha, Ava, Hamath, and Sepharvaim to inhabit Samaria (2 Kings 17:24; Ezra 4:2-11). These foreigners intermarried with the Israelite population that was still in and around Samaria. The Samaritans embraced a religion that was a mixture of Judaism and idolatry (2 Kings 17:26-28). Because the Israelite inhabitants of Samaria had inter-married with the foreigners and adopted their idolatrous religion, Samaritans were generally considered “half-breeds” and were despised by the Jews.

When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.
The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” For Jews do not associate with Samaritans. Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
- John 4, 7-10

Back to Jezebel, we don't see Catholics making anything out of the office of Queen in the Old Testament, although Mary is lauded as Queen of Heaven and not as Queen Mother of Heaven. If Mary is the Mother of God ought not her title be Queen Mother of Heaven and not Queen of Heaven. The clear implication of the title of Queen is that the Queen is either sole monarch, as in the case of Queen Elizabeth I, or is the wife of the King. If Mary is Queen, who is her husband?

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Again, Jezebel was queen of the northern kingdom Israel, where the institution of the queen mother didn't exist, not the southern kingdom Judah where it continued to exist without interruption until the reign of Zedekiah (597-586 B.C.) and the destruction of the southern kingdom and the exile of its people into captivity.

Mary is the Queen of Heaven by virtue of her Son's kingship in the royal line of the kings of Judah and the united monarchies of David and Solomon. She is Queen and implicitly Queen Mother because our King of kings is her Son. (Luke 1:31-33).

καὶ εἰσελθὼν ὁ ἄγγελος πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν Χαῖρε κεχαριτωμένη ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξίν - Luke 1, 28

καὶ ἔλεγον Χαῖρε ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων· καὶ ἐδίδουν αὐτῷ ῥαπίσματα - John 19, 3


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justinangel said:

Bathsheba must have been the most significant of David's wives, since it was her son Solomon who ascended to the throne.

In 1 Kings, we see that the Gebirah sat on a throne alongside her son and had a role as counsellor and intercessor to the king.

Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand. Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay. - 1 Kings 2, 19-20

But to sit on my right hand, or on my left, is not mine to give to you, but to them for whom it is prepared. - Mark 10, 40

And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye. - John 2, 3-5

The title Gebirah (גְּבִירָה ) occurs 6 times in the OT. The word is literally defined a "queen" or "great lady". It's short definition is "queen mother " since the queen was the king's mother, not his wife. The NASB has translated Gebirah "queen mother".

In John 2:4, the Greek word for woman is γύναι (gunai) meaning "my lady". Here it doesn't mean "wife". But it could also mean "woman" in the generic sense if Jesus is implicitly referring to his mother as Eve's anti-type (cf. Luke 1:42) besides our heavenly queen.

And also Maachah his mother, even her he removed from being queen (Gebirah), because she had made an idol in a grove; and Asa destroyed her idol, and burnt it by the brook Kidron.
- 1 Kings 15, 13 [KJB]

Say unto the king and to the queen, Humble yourselves, sit down: for your principalities shall come down, even the crown of your glory.
- Jeremiah 13, 18

Now these are the words of the letter which Jeremias, the prophet sent from Jerusalem to the residue of the ancients that were carried into captivity, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people, whom Nabuchodonosor had carried away from Jerusalem to Babylon: After that Jechonias the king, and the queen, and the eunuchs, and the princes of Juda, and of Jerusalem, and the craftsman, and the engravers were departed out of Jerusalem. - Jeremiah 29, 1-2

The king and the queen: Jehoiachin, and his mother Nehushta, of the southern kingdom of Judah, as it is generally interpreted by Jewish commentators, who, with many princes and officers, were carried captive into Babylon (2 kings 24:12).

The only queen mothers not chronicled among the rulers of Judah and their mothers are those of King Jehoram, who married wicked Athaliah, daughter of Ahab and Jezebel of Israel [2 Kings 8:17-18]; King Ahaz [2 Kings 16:2-3]; and King Asa [1 Kings 15:10]. In the case of Jehoram and Ahaz, their mothers may have died prior to their sons assuming the throne of David, and in the case of Asa, his grandmother is named as the Gebirah, his mother having died or perhaps his grandmother, the former Gebirah, did not relinquish her power and authority upon the succession of her grandson.

In times of conquest, both the king and his mother represented royal power. Notice that the king's wives aren't mentioned at all as part of the state's governing apparatus.

And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign. - Kings 24, 12



Non sequitur. Jezebel married King Ahab of the Northern Kingdom, Israel, during the time when ancient Israel was divided into Israel in the north and Judah in the south. The institution of the Gebirah was not preserved in the Northern Kingdom after the rebellion of the 10 northern tribes against Rehoboam and the division of the united monarchy of Israel.

And thou Bethlehem the land of Judah art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come forth the leader that shall rule my people Israel.
- Matthew 2, 6



Niether did Solomon and Adonijah have the same mothers, but since Solomon ascended to the throne, his mother Bathsheba became queen by virtue of being his mother. Adojinah's mother was Haggith, one of David's other wives. I suppose we can say that she was more like a princess. Rehoboam was an Israelite king. According to I Kings and II Chronicles, he was initially king of the united monarchy of Israel, but after the ten northern tribes of Israel rebelled (932/931 BC) to form the independent northern Kingdom of Israel (Samaria), he remained as king of only the Kingdom of Judah, the southern kingdom. He was a son of Solomon and a grandson of David. His mother was Namath the Ammonite. He is the first monarch listed among the 20 kings and queen mothers in the chronicle of the rulers of Judah from after Solomon's reign and as his lawful successor. His son Abuja, who succeeded him to the throne, was born in Judah, where Jesus was born. Jeroboam I was the first king of the northern Kingdom of Israel after the revolt of the ten northern Israelite tribes against Rehoboam that put an end to the united monarchy under his lawful rule.

The Samaritans occupied the northern country formerly belonging to the tribe of Ephraim and the half-tribe of Manasseh. The capital of the country was Samaria, formerly a large and splendid city. When the ten tribes were carried away into captivity to Assyria, the king of Assyria sent people from Cutha, Ava, Hamath, and Sepharvaim to inhabit Samaria (2 Kings 17:24; Ezra 4:2-11). These foreigners intermarried with the Israelite population that was still in and around Samaria. The Samaritans embraced a religion that was a mixture of Judaism and idolatry (2 Kings 17:26-28). Because the Israelite inhabitants of Samaria had inter-married with the foreigners and adopted their idolatrous religion, Samaritans were generally considered “half-breeds” and were despised by the Jews.

When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.
The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” For Jews do not associate with Samaritans. Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
- John 4, 7-10



Again, Jezebel was queen of the northern kingdom Israel, where the institution of the queen mother didn't exist, not the southern kingdom Judah where it continued to exist without interruption until the reign of Zedekiah (597-586 B.C.) and the destruction of the southern kingdom and the exile of its people into captivity.

Mary is the Queen of Heaven by virtue of her Son's kingship in the royal line of the kings of Judah and the united monarchies of David and Solomon. She is Queen and implicitly Queen Mother because our King of kings is her Son. (Luke 1:31-33).

καὶ εἰσελθὼν ὁ ἄγγελος πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν Χαῖρε κεχαριτωμένη ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξίν - Luke 1, 28

καὶ ἔλεγον Χαῖρε ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων· καὶ ἐδίδουν αὐτῷ ῥαπίσματα - John 19, 3


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I owe my Muslim friends a sincere apology for believing that Christians worship three gods - Father, Mother, and Son.

bbbbbbb said:

I owe my Muslim friends a sincere apology for believing that Christians worship three gods - Father, Mother, and Son.

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What a ludicrous thing to say, and not in the least erudite. I take it you're tongue-tied in our discussion. I strongly suggest you do your research before making bald claims based on what you wish to presume.


However, there are Christians outside the Church in modern time who claim to worship the same God and adore the same Jesus as the Apostles and Church Fathers did, but actually don't. Their heavenly father is a rapist and his son a pompous narcissist.

PAX

justinangel said:

What a ludicrous thing to say, and not in the least erudite. I take it you're tongue-tied in our discussion. I strongly suggest you do your research before making bald claims based on what you wish to presume.


However, there are Christians outside the Church in modern time who claim to worship the same God and adore the same Jesus as the Apostles and Church Fathers did, but actually don't. Their heavenly father is a rapist and his son a pompous narcissist.

PAX

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I am bowing out of this conversation. As we used to say in the government, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, bury them with mature male bovine manure". I have been well-buried, thank you.

bbbbbbb said:

The Queen Mother is a Catholic innovation as such a person is never described in the Bible. It is about as valid as making a city gate into an anatomical feature.

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Just for historical purposes - St Athanasius referenced Mary as "Queen" in the late 300s. I'm not trying to convince you that the Bible does or doesn't state that she is Queen, but I did find it interesting when I saw that passage in St Athansius' writings. Was St Athanasius' Marian theology as developed as the current beliefs of the Catholic Church? I personally don't think it was (especially about the IC), but the concept of Mary as queen did exist at that time.

"“It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him Who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God Master Who was born of you. For this reason you are called 'full of Grace'..." (373 St. Athanasius)."

ETA: I just saw that you wanted to bow out of the conversation...no need to respond if you don't want to get back in the thread

AntoineL said:

When the bible mentions a "Queen of Heaven" it isn't positive:

This title referred to Ishtar, an Assyrian and Babylonian goddess also called Ashtoreth and Astarte by various other groups. She was thought to be the wife of the false god Baal, also known as Molech. The motivation of women to worship Ashtoreth stemmed from her reputation as a fertility goddess, and, as the bearing of children was greatly desired among women of that era, worship of this “queen of heaven” was rampant among pagan civilizations.

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While I agree with your opinion that Mary is NOT the 'queen of heaven'. You do have some misunderstanding. Baal when used by itself is not Molech. Molech was one of the Baalim but not Baal. He was Baalzebub. Baal was both son and consort of Ashtoreth. Molech was the twin brother of Ashtoreth. Baal is just a title meaning 'lord' while there were specific titles of lord of a specific thing or attribute for several of the pagan deities. Even Ashtoreth is called Baalah, ie 'mistress'.

Ashtoreth wasn't just a fertility goddess but a goddess over witchcraft to give power to woman to manipulate and control men. Ashtoreth was the dominant member in her relationship with Baal as his mother. Queen Jezebel was a high priestess of Ashtoreth/Astarte as well as a witch. Her name basically means 'Baal is my consort', a reference to Ashtoreth/Astarte.

Another thing to note is the Hebrew word Shammayim, 'heavens' also means 'sky'. Her title of 'queen of heaven/sky' was from being queen mother of Nimrod at Babel as in 'queen of the Tower'. She was mother of both Nimrod and Sidon, Canaan's eldest son and the primary deity of the city he founded, ie Sidon.

Not everything believed was written down.
The passages of the Bible were answered questions per request by Bishops of the early Church...in the regions per the scriptures titles. Ephesians, Corinthians etc.
The Gospels were also requested in later periods after many years of preaching.
As Paul said to Timothy to keep the oral teachings and the scriptures [Old Testament as evidence of the fulfillment]

So what did the early Church teach?
Certainly nobody would have depicted icons of our Lady in the catacombs of the first Christians if it was not something they already believed.


So...
Our Lady of the Sign Catholic Church - Icon of Our Lady of the Sign History
Elements present in the icon of Our Lady of the Sign


The icon of Virgin Mary is facing the viewer directly with her hands raised in the orans (prayerful) position, and with the image of the Christ depicted within a round aureole representing the womb.

The colors have a special meaning: red and purple are signs of the divine while blue often represents the earth.

Her aureole signifies that She is Holy and the Queen. The gold cuffs on her sleeves are fit for a Queen, and indicate her intercession for the people.

Mary is sometimes called “Platítera”, i.e. “Greater than Heaven", since the Virgin has conceivedin her womb Him whom the heavens can not contain.

The three stars on the Virgin (forehead, right shoulder, left shoulder) signify that She was a Virgin before, during and after the birth of Christ. She is dedicated to the coming of theKingdom of the Son of God..

Marian Icons in Rome and Italy

This is a sad thread, such a misunderstanding of Christ's Kingship