Is the UMC Itinerant Process Biblical?

Rawtheran

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So I was at drill this weekend for the National Guard and when we were released for the day I was hanging out with some friends at Buffalo Wild Wings and the topic of how pastors are hired came up. My friend is a Baptist who was asking about how the UMC hires its pastors. I told him that in our denomination it is different because pastors are called by God and then sent by the Bishops in each Annual Conference to a charge or appointment in an area that is open, and there are times when pastors move from church to church. He didn't quite understand this and asked how this was a Biblical concept? He asked why would the denomination move a pastor of a congregation especially if that pastor and his staff are doing a great job in that particular place? Since I really didn't know how to answer this question, I wanted to come on here and ask some of the more experienced members of the UMC on how is the Itinerant process of the UMC Biblical and justified? In other words how do we know that this system is God's plan for our denomination and not just another tradition of man?
 

Qyöt27

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Not everything a church does has to have a Scriptural precedent, and just because it's not in Scripture doesn't mean it's automatically bad (Sunday school, the liturgical structure, using light bulbs instead of candles, grape juice rather than wine, these things simply develop or happen with time and circumstance, there's nothing intrinsically moral or immoral about them, although there's always going to be dissenters - after all, the Amish might have a bone to pick over the light bulbs). The Apostles themselves were itinerant, if you want to get technical, but that's a bit of a different situation to pastors. The fuller answer to the UMC's itinerant pastors is still probably going to be foreign or even scandalous to Baptist-type thinking.

Methodism originated in the Church of England in the 1700s, but due to the outbreak of the American Revolution, all of the priests in the colonies were recalled back to England and left no one to consecrate the elements for the Eucharist (since Methodists consider Communion to be a Sacrament, having properly ordained clergy to perform it is important). The first explicitly Methodist clergy were appointed and charged with serving in North America against this backdrop, and this action is what caused the split between the Church of England and the Methodists in the colonies. Because the new Methodist clergy were so few in number and the congregations so spread apart, they had to split their time amongst all the congregations in the area they served, and this is where the tradition of itinerant pastors in Methodism (not just the UMC; most, if not all, denominations in the Wesleyan family do this, to my knowledge) actually comes from. Eventually the number of clergy grew, and the travel distance between congregations they had to serve decreased, but the tradition of a pastor only serving a congregation for a time before moving onto another remained (at the discretion of the bishop, since making decisions about where priests/pastors serve has been in their job description since the Early Church period).

An important effect of it is also that because pastors are appointed from the top-down, there's far less of a threat of a pastor becoming beholden to the congregation in a way that becomes spiritually toxic or neglectful, since the congregation doesn't have the authority to throw out a pastor they've decided they have a problem with (like because the pastor doesn't just stick to telling the congregation what they want to hear instead of what they need to hear).
 
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Dave-W

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LOL!!! This has been an ongoing debate as to what the most biblical church government system is. My dad (ordained Wesleyan Methodist) and a good friend (ordained Free Methodist) had an ongoing friendly debate all their lives; dad on the side of congregationalism and his friend Vern on the side of bishops assigning pastors to congregations.

As I read the bible, no one is actually using the biblical example of a ruling group of elders who come up thru the ranks in that congregation and pastor the congregation for life.
 
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circuitrider

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I'd absolutely argue that you have to really stretch the text to get the Bible to support Congregationalism.

You can much more easily support an episcopal system (with Bishops/overseers having oversite over other clergy like the Apostles over other pastors in their day.)

Or a Presbyterial system (Like the Jerusalem Council giving advice to the Gentile churches)

I don't seeevidence for independently run congregations who pick their own pastors and are not under the authority of the Apostles and their teaching in the New Testament.
 
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Dave-W

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I'd absolutely argue that you have to really stretch the text to get the Bible to support Congregationalism.

You can much more easily support an episcopal system (with Bishops/overseers having oversite over other clergy like the Apostles over other pastors in their day.)

Or a Presbyterial system (Like the Jerusalem Council giving advice to the Gentile churches)

I don't seeevidence for independently run congregations who pick their own pastors and are not under the authority of the Apostles and their teaching in the New Testament.
Indeed.

The only system I find worse than Congregationalism is Independent, where the pastor sets up his own little fiefdom.

I know some would put Neo-apostolic at the bottom, but I have traditionally held it fairly high on the list. Recent events, however, have lowered it in my estimation.
 
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circuitrider

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Indeed.

The only system I find worse than Congregationalism is Independent, where the pastor sets up his own little fiefdom.

I know some would put Neo-apostolic at the bottom, but I have traditionally held it fairly high on the list. Recent events, however, have lowered it in my estimation.

Agreed. independent congregations with no connection to the wider church are the farthest extreme of congregationalism and can lead to the largest danger of doctrinal error since there is no over site at all by anyone beyond the congregation.
 
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Dave-W

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Agreed. independent congregations with no connection to the wider church are the farthest extreme of congregationalism and can lead to the largest danger of doctrinal error since there is no over site at all by anyone beyond the congregation.
Well, at least in congregationalism, the membership can vote out an errant leader. That is not possible in independent structured congregations.
 
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circuitrider

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Well, at least in congregationalism, the membership can vote out an errant leader. That is not possible in independent structured congregations.

Yes, but what do you do with an errant congregation? Or even a toxic one?
 
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Dave-W

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Good question. It has been my experience that errant leaders will produce an errant congregation.

Look at cult leaders like Jim Jones or Sun Myung Moon.
 
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circuitrider

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Good question. It has been my experience that errant leaders will produce an errant congregation.

Look at cult leaders like Jim Jones or Sun Myung Moon.

True, but also dysfunctional congregations can really do harm to good ministers.

It has been my experience that trouble makers gravitate to congregationalist churches where they can set up little kingdoms and queendoms. In such situations pastors are chewed up and spit out on a regular basis because there is no one protecting them.
 
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Dave-W

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It has been my experience that trouble makers gravitate to congregationalist churches where they can set up little kingdoms and queendoms. In such situations pastors are chewed up and spit out on a regular basis because there is no one protecting them.
Yeah - I guess it cuts both ways.

Rev Dan Juster wrote a book about a congregation that went off the deep end while he was attending Wheaton Seminary in Chicago in the late 1960s. It is called "Dynamics of Spiritual Deception."
722426.jpg


Dynamics of Spiritual Deception
 
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GraceSeeker

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When I look at the Bible, I see the following story of the spread of the church beyond Jerusalem:


"19 Now those who had been scattered by the persecution that broke out when Stephen was killed traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, spreading the word only among Jews. 20 Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus. 21 The Lord’s hand was with them, and a great number of people believed and turned to the Lord. 22 News of this reached the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch."

Is anyone going to claim that this sending of Barnabas isn't Biblical? That is exactly what Methodist bishops do to this very day, they hear about the needs of various congregations of the church and they send people to pastor them. Yes, sometimes that means moving them from one place where they have been successfully serving to another (just like in a local congregation a 5th grade Sunday school teachers sometimes changes grades to serve 3rd grade class and a new teacher comes in to take over the 5th grade class), but then it still is intended to build up the Church which is the entirety of the body of Christ. Because there is only one United Methodist Church and several thousand branches of it spread out around the globe.
 
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Dave-W

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22 News of this reached the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch."

Is anyone going to claim that this sending of Barnabas isn't Biblical?
Barnabas was beginning his life as an itinerant preacher. At the beginning of Acts 13 we see he and Saul/Paul being called out as evangelists and apostles to the gentiles. So Barnabas was only at Antioch for a chapter and a half.
 
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GraceSeeker

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Barnabas was beginning his life as an itinerant preacher. At the beginning of Acts 13 we see he and Saul/Paul being called out as evangelists and apostles to the gentiles. So Barnabas was only at Antioch for a chapter and a half.
Point being, Barnabas was sent to Antioch. UM pastors are sent to their appointments. It IS a biblical model. The fallacy might be that some people believe there is only one model to be found in the Bible; that simply isn't true. God got his people where he wanted them in lots of different ways. Some were sent. Some were called. Some were inspired, recruited and transformed for ministry on the spot. Some were even chased. But, probably the most common model to be found in the scriptures is what I call the flower model, "Bloom where you are planted."
 
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Dave-W

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The fallacy might be that some people believe there is only one model to be found in the Bible;
Very true.

In one of my past congregations, I was teaching a membership class based on Dr Prince's "Foundation Series." The pastor wanted an addition session on church governments and why the "independent" was best. So I did some study on "Episcopal," "Presbyterian," "Congregational," "Independent," and "Neo-apostolic." I looked at congregational submission, congregational affiliation, congregational interdependence and congregational independence.

I found that the "congregational" and "independent" congregational leadership styles and the "congregational independence" translocal leadership had absolutely no scriptural example at all. The rest seemed to have at least a modicum of biblical support.
 
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circuitrider

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Very true.

I found that the "congregational" and "independent" congregational leadership styles and the "congregational independence" translocal leadership had absolutely no scriptural example at all. The rest seemed to have at least a modicum of biblical support.

Agreed. That is just one of many reasons I'm a United Methodist now having grown up in a congregationalist denomination.

I definitely see an episcopal model as one of the Biblical models but I can find no evidence that congregationalist is Biblical.
 
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Maid Marie

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An important effect of it is also that because pastors are appointed from the top-down, there's far less of a threat of a pastor becoming beholden to the congregation in a way that becomes spiritually toxic or neglectful, since the congregation doesn't have the authority to throw out a pastor they've decided they have a problem with (like because the pastor doesn't just stick to telling the congregation what they want to hear instead of what they need to hear).
My former Nazarene pastor has discovered this for himself. He is on loan to a UMC as their pastor for a year. He is pleasantly shocked over how much more emotionally mature his new congregation is versus all the Nazarene churches he's encountered because of this system.
 
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circuitrider

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My former Nazarene pastor has discovered this for himself. He is on loan to a UMC as their pastor for a year. He is pleasantly shocked over how much more emotionally mature his new congregation is versus all the Nazarene churches he's encountered because of this system.

I'm sure there are some immature UMC congregations.

But I having been a Baptist pastor previously, I can tell you that Methodist churches I've served don't expect you to have to agree with the views of the congregation as you aren't a member of the congregation. You are temporary, even if you are there six, eight or 10 years.

They didn't hire you so there is no feeling that you are their employee to be bossed around, hired and fired.

I feel the relationship is on a more even footing.
 
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Maid Marie

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I'm sure there are some immature UMC congregations.

But I having been a Baptist pastor previously, I can tell you that Methodist churches I've served don't expect you to have to agree with the views of the congregation as you aren't a member of the congregation. You are temporary, even if you are there six, eight or 10 years.

They didn't hire you so there is no feeling that you are their employee to be bossed around, hired and fired.

I feel the relationship is on a more even footing.
And that's why I said that they are more emotionally mature. It is so different in the CotN that I really dread when my current pastor leaves because I know that they won't handle it well at all, yet do look forward to it because I know that the longer he stays, the worse it will be.
 
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