New Covenant, the 144,000 and NT scriptures

Radrook

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I once believed that the New Covenant which involves being in heaven with Jesus to reign in his kingdom as kings and priests after the Christian is resurrected is limited to 144,000. The consequences of that belief on how I perceived the NT scriptures which mentioned those things were profound since every single time I read about the heavenly promises I felt obligated to exclude or distance myself from the message while others who had no such belief felt that God was talking personally to them.

Are JWS the only ones who hold that 144,000 belief?
 

Ken Behrens

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Read it again. It's 144,000 Jews (12,000 from each tribe), and a countless number of others. The numbers are symbolic anyway. They are defined as "those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes". I'm sure you wish to be one of them, so follow Jesus wherever He goes. I'll see you up there.
 
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BABerean2

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I once believed that the New Covenant which involves being in heaven with Jesus to reign in his kingdom as kings and priests after the Christian is resurrected is limited to 144,000. The consequences of that belief on how I perceived the NT scriptures which mentioned those things were profound since every single time I read about the heavenly promises I felt obligated to exclude or distance myself from the message while others who had no such belief felt that God was talking personally to them.

Are JWS the only ones who hold that 144,000 belief?

. The 144,000- Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (Who are the firstfruits?)

Compare to the following verse from Paul in the Book of Romans describing Christians.

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. (Who are the firstfruits of the Lamb?)

They are clearly Christians, since they are the firstfruits of Christ.

However, they are most likely a symbol since there are exactly 12,000 in each tribe.

If you go to the modern State of Israel and ask the people which tribe they are from, you will get a blank stare.

During the Diaspora the intermarriage confused the tribal identities. Most modern Jews are not from a single tribe, as Paul was.
.
 
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Radrook

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. The 144,000- Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (Who are the firstfruits?)

Compare to the following verse from Paul in the Book of Romans describing Christians.

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. (Who are the firstfruits of the Lamb?)

They are clearly Christians, since they are the firstfruits of Christ.

However, they are most likely a symbol since there are exactly 12,000 in each tribe.

If you go to the modern State of Israel and ask the people which tribe they are from, you will get a blank stare.

During the Diaspora the intermarriage confused the tribal identities. Most modern Jews are not from a single tribe, as Paul was.
.

Well, I no longer believe in the JWs interpretation.
Actually, I was once told by a non JWS that the 144000 were Jews.
So I guess there are different views on that.
Me? Well, I don't feel any longer restricted in participating in the Lord's Evening Meal [Mass] as a consequence of my changed perspective.
 
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Radrook

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Read it again. It's 144,000 Jews (12,000 from each tribe), and a countless number of others. The numbers are symbolic anyway. They are defined as "those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes". I'm sure you wish to be one of them, so follow Jesus wherever He goes. I'll see you up there.
Well, just because I am non-denominational doesn't disqualify me from being one right now-does it? The only denomination I claim to be is Christian.
 
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BABerean2

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Well, just because I am non-denominational doesn't disqualify me from being one right now-does it? The only denomination I claim to be is Christian.

The Apostle Paul was non-denominational.

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

.
 
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bloodygrace

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. The 144,000- Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (Who are the firstfruits?)

Compare to the following verse from Paul in the Book of Romans describing Christians.

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. (Who are the firstfruits of the Lamb?)

They are clearly Christians, since they are the firstfruits of Christ.

However, they are most likely a symbol since there are exactly 12,000 in each tribe.

If you go to the modern State of Israel and ask the people which tribe they are from, you will get a blank stare.

During the Diaspora the intermarriage confused the tribal identities. Most modern Jews are not from a single tribe, as Paul was.
.

Nice post!
 
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NJA

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Using the historicist understanding of Revelation, I suggest that the order of the sealing of the tribes refers to the "land grab" that took place as the Roman Empire fell (chapter 6), So, Reuben (the Franks) got France, Judah already had Israel and Benjamin (Iceland and the Normans) came last. This explains why Dan is omitted, the Danites were already there, in Ireland & Denmark ("Danmark"). Way back in Deborah's time they were already at sea (Judges 5:17).

Thwe actual sealing seems to refer to New Testament salvation, which a remnant of each of these European countries will receive, the same salvation as the great multitude from all nations, for theer is "one hope of your calling", to rule and reigh with Jesus, not 2 hopes, one heavenly, the other earthly, as the JWs teach.
 

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BABerean2

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I suggest that the order of the sealing of the tribes refers to the "land grab" that took place as the Roman Empire fell (chapter 6)

Are you promoting the idea of "British-Israelism"?

The end of Revelation chapter 6 contains the Second Coming of Christ with those characters who are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb. Some of these same characters are found in chapter 19.



Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders(Gk5506), the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 
Rev 6:16  and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 
(The Lamb must be present on earth at this point, if they are hiding from His wrath. We also find God's wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet.)


Rev 6:17  For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" 

Rev 19:18  that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains(Gk5506), the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." 

.
 
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NJA

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Are you promoting the idea of "British-Israelism"?
I'm promoting the bible prophecies about the independent existance of all tribes in the last days. Since they were to multiply as the sand on the shore and the stars of heaven they must be nations. Britain is only one of them.

The end of Revelation chapter 6 contains the Second Coming of Christ with those characters who are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.


No it describes in symbolic form the political and religious upheaval caused by the Roman Empire becoming "Christian" after centuries of paganism. Some people thought this was the end of the world but if you look at history and understand Revealtion from the historicism perspective you will realise it can't be.
 
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BABerean2

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I'm promoting the bible prophecies about the independent existance of all tribes in the last days. Since they were to multiply as the sand on the shore and the stars of heaven they must be nations. Britain is only one of them.

Compare what your are claiming with the words of James, the half brother of Christ.

Jas 1:1  James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. 


Jas 1:2  My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 

Jas 1:3  knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 

James knew the twelve tribes scrattered abroad and spoke of them as his Christian Brothers.

There is no separation of races of people under the New Covenant.

I am not accusing you of this.
However, some have used British-Israelism to keep the races separate. Many of them are followers of the doctrine of Herbert Armstrong.


.
 
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NJA

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Jas 1:1  James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad:

James is writing hundreds of years before the fall of the Roman empire.


Jas 1:2  My brethren, ..
James knew the twelve tribes scrattered abroad and spoke of them as his Christian Brothers.

No, fellow Israelites (related by blood) were also referred to as "brethren", for example:

Act_2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David ...

Act_2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Act_3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;



There is no separation of races of people under the New Covenant.
True, all spirit-filled people are in the body of Christ and co-heirs.
 
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BABerean2

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True, all spirit-filled people are in the body of Christ and co-heirs.

The problem is that British-Israelism, just like modern Dispensational Theology puts an emphasis on bloodline.

I am glad to hear that you are not one of those who divides the races.

Have you ever done any research into the history of British Israelism?

The letter James wrote was written to the Church.
Therefore, "brethren" could also mean his fellow Christians.


.
 
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NJA

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...
Have you ever done any research into the history of British Israelism?

.
I have done plenty of research into how the many promises, prophecies and parables concerning I srael in general, the tribes in particular and the Throne of David have been fulfilled. So I am familiar wioth what you would call "British Israelism".
 
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jgr

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However, they are most likely a symbol since there are exactly 12,000 in each tribe.

Here's an explanation from Dr. H. C. Heffren, a dear old friend of mine gone to his richly deserved reward:

Twelve is the Biblical number that signifies completeness. Twelve tribes of Israel and twelve apostles were chosen to introduce both the Old and New Testaments. The 144,000 is the square of twelve multiplied a thousandfold. Thus it represents all the redeemed from both the Old and New Testament times. They represent the true church, undefiled by the world, separate from evil and joined in holy wedlock to Christ. In the church are manifest all the Christian graces, and through it Christ spreads His blessings. If you are redeemed and can sing the new song of deliverance from sin, then you can have assurance of being included in this perfect number of completeness that signifies all the redeemed.

His complete, detailed, and inspirational exposition can be found here.
 
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BABerean2

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Here's an explanation from Dr. H. C. Heffren, a dear old friend of mine gone to his richly deserved reward:

Twelve is the Biblical number that signifies completeness. Twelve tribes of Israel and twelve apostles were chosen to introduce both the Old and New Testaments. The 144,000 is the square of twelve multiplied a thousandfold. Thus it represents all the redeemed from both the Old and New Testament times. They represent the true church, undefiled by the world, separate from evil and joined in holy wedlock to Christ. In the church are manifest all the Christian graces, and through it Christ spreads His blessings. If you are redeemed and can sing the new song of deliverance from sin, then you can have assurance of being included in this perfect number of completeness that signifies all the redeemed.

His complete, detailed, and inspirational exposition can be found here.

Thanks, Brother.

I printed out a copy for myself.

.
 
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Radrook

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The Apostle Paul was non-denominational.

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

.
Unfortunately today there are more denominations than there are in Paul's list and each one claiming to be the right way that a Christian is supposed to worship. No one would have imagined that such a situation would developed from the initial Protestant movement.
 
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Radrook

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Here's an explanation from Dr. H. C. Heffren, a dear old friend of mine gone to his richly deserved reward:

Twelve is the Biblical number that signifies completeness. Twelve tribes of Israel and twelve apostles were chosen to introduce both the Old and New Testaments. The 144,000 is the square of twelve multiplied a thousandfold. Thus it represents all the redeemed from both the Old and New Testament times. They represent the true church, undefiled by the world, separate from evil and joined in holy wedlock to Christ. In the church are manifest all the Christian graces, and through it Christ spreads His blessings. If you are redeemed and can sing the new song of deliverance from sin, then you can have assurance of being included in this perfect number of completeness that signifies all the redeemed.

His complete, detailed, and inspirational exposition can be found here.
. The 144,000- Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (Who are the firstfruits?)

Compare to the following verse from Paul in the Book of Romans describing Christians.

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. (Who are the firstfruits of the Lamb?)

They are clearly Christians, since they are the firstfruits of Christ.

However, they are most likely a symbol since there are exactly 12,000 in each tribe.

If you go to the modern State of Israel and ask the people which tribe they are from, you will get a blank stare.

During the Diaspora the intermarriage confused the tribal identities. Most modern Jews are not from a single tribe, as Paul was.
.

The interpretation of the 144,000 as being Spiritual Israel and the taking of the number literally has led some to identify all other remaining Christians as being the Great Crowd which no man was able to number also mentioned in Revelation who are destined to live on Earth as opposed to heaven as the 144,000 are assumed. In short, God's flock is viewed as composed of two classes of Christians, those who are part of the 144,000 and those who belong to the Great Crowd. The 144,000 are viewed as the ones who are in the New Covenant to be with Christ in heaven. The Great Crowd is not viewed as being in that New Covenant relation with God because their destiny is an Earthly one. So whenever the Lord's Evening Meal is celebrated they cannot partake of it.
 
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BABerean2

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their destiny is an Earthly one.

It would not be much of a destiny based on the words of Peter.

2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 
2Pe 3:11  Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 
2Pe 3:12  looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 
2Pe 3:13  Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 

.
 
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Radrook

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It would not be much of a destiny based on the words of Peter.

2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 
2Pe 3:11  Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 
2Pe 3:12  looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 
2Pe 3:13  Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 

.
A destiny within the New Earth is what they are referring to.
 
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