Why did Jesus have Apostles?

Darrell Moneyhon

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The Apostles were to serve as the foundation for his church.

Espesias 2:20
19Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord


1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

Revelation 21:14

New International Version
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This (1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?) resonated the most with me now. "Indwelling Spirit" is the title of Andrew Murray's famous book. Indwelling has been on my mind of late. Of course it would be to a person who sees their own type of Christian worship and faith as being "depth-dynamic!"

The concept of "positive projection" applies to the indwelling view. If a deeper, truer, reality is indwelling, then the mind being as it is -- prone to projection outward -- would tend to project an inner sense of God Energy out onto the external objects or words reflecting discrete things/beings. The spiritual nature of self is just too big to wrap our regular little minds around. The sensed reality overflows and arcs out like a projected image, not unlike Plato's shadows on the cave walls.

And nothing wrong with that positive projection, as long as we also make a sincere/honest attempt to acknowledge the inherent distortions and then to "reclaim the projection," so that it might serve the original "indwellingness" from whence it came. God out there in the great beyond is a useful reflection of the deepest reality and possibility deep at the core of True Self (as Child of God, etc.).

But if we mistake the projection for the deeply real thing, then we become ironically separated from the God as God really is. We become distanced from our true nature as Children of God or as part of God's nonlocal, transpositional, "field" (as in an energy field). We are prone to a kind of idol worship that is so subtle that we don't notice it. Until worship itself becomes a wedge.

The only real solution to the "disowning" and distortions of projection, is to allow the mind to transcend its regular thinking of discrete thoughts, and to "float to the core" of a deeper consciousness where all things are interconnected in unity, in one big "field."
IMO,

darrell
 
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Can't imagine that you messed up that story in any significant manner or degree, since it was beautifully illustrative of a basic truth that we can build on people's "good" better than we can on their "bad." The "bad" is seen most sharply on the surface where all sorts of "things" or "classical objects" appear more separate than they really (in total, God's, reality) are. The "good" seems naturally rooted in potential, which lives in a deeper part of each divine "fountain" called a human being. Truly acknowledging "goodness" is too see and connect with, or closer to, a person's soul. The soul, like Christ, is between out/flesh/world and in/spirit/heaven. It can go deep into spirit or deal with the superficial realities of the realm of classical objects (Quantum physics) or the realm of "the ten thousand things" (Taoism) or the realm of separation from God, "sin" (Abrahamic/Judeo-Christian) or the realm of "the Great Slumbering" (German Idealist, Schilling). The soul has the capacity to be both a junction of spiritually manifested realities, as well as an integrator of spirit and flesh. Integration of the two requires a careful balance of acceptance of the reality of the manifest realm, but not taking the objects and events of that realm too seriously. {A bit of wonderful synchronicity just occurred as I was typing that -- My cell phone rang with a local area code showing. I answered the call. It was the scam-like come-on that I had just won a "free trip to the Bahamas!!! I hung up the phone.}. Seeing this reality here in light of (perhaps literally in the light of) a deeper reality that we refer to as "God." Out of this deeper reality flows potential for spirituality and genuine "good." God flows goodness into regular old reality. Not all monikers of "good" are of the true goodness and godliness of the good we sense in our hearts, but there is fortunately a real shared sense of "good" among us mere mortals. The last question of the recent ugly presidential town hall meeting/debate in the U.S. showed how we do all tend to perk up and recognize, rather deeply, "good." The candidates were asked to say something "good" about each other. It was a powerful moment that took the mask off the near-demonic actors in the fierce political competition. We saw two God-made human beings instead of two man-made caracatures of humans in the form of typical "politicians."
Thanks for sharing that story which reminds us to look deeper and see potential and "good" to build upon in others.
Yes, I respond best to familiar Christian images and concepts. I am at home there as I make my spiritual growth journey. But I also can realize that these are not as real as what flows into them from a deeper dimension than I can fathom. The same Source flows similar "good" into people with different spiritual vehicles or "religions" also. To see and acknowledge that is, I think we would agree, "good."
Darrell


It is always good to acknowledge whatever is good in another. We are all made in the image of God, after all, and He writes His law on men's hearts. Morally and otherwise, we might share much good across cultures and religions. You're right about this. :)

However, in the case of spirituality (in a mystical sense), we need to be careful. It IS possible that God might reach out to non-Christians through their spiritual practices. But that would be an act of condescension on His part, to draw men to Him. We as Christians on the other hand have been given the Way - and it is Christ. If we compromise for any reason whatsoever and embrace non-Christian spirituality, that represents spiritual adultery. God has no need or obligation to condescend to us through pagan spirituality - we already know Christ. And to expect Him to do so is dangerously presumptuous. Not only that, but non-Christians who see us do this can easily conclude that our beliefs must not be that strong, and/or Christ is not really necessary. I can't see it as spiritually profitable, either from a personal perspective or as a tool for evangelism, but rather potentially destructive in both cases.

But certainly, we can acknowledge good in others, and attempt to build on that. They will know that we value virtue, as they do. And they may see that we have real help to offer in Christ. And our steadfast devotion to our own faith at the same time can underscore our witness.
 
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Radrook

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This (1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?) resonated the most with me now. "Indwelling Spirit" is the title of Andrew Murray's famous book. Indwelling has been on my mind of late. Of course it would be to a person who sees their own type of Christian worship and faith as being "depth-dynamic!"

The concept of "positive projection" applies to the indwelling view. If a deeper, truer, reality is indwelling, then the mind being as it is -- prone to projection outward -- would tend to project an inner sense of God Energy out onto the external objects or words reflecting discrete things/beings. The spiritual nature of self is just too big to wrap our regular little minds around. The sensed reality overflows and arcs out like a projected image, not unlike Plato's shadows on the cave walls.

And nothing wrong with that positive projection, as long as we also make a sincere/honest attempt to acknowledge the inherent distortions and then to "reclaim the projection," so that it might serve the original "indwellingness" from whence it came. God out there in the great beyond is a useful reflection of the deepest reality and possibility deep at the core of True Self (as Child of God, etc.).

But if we mistake the projection for the deeply real thing, then we become ironically separated from the God as God really is. We become distanced from our true nature as Children of God or as part of God's nonlocal, transpositional, "field" (as in an energy field). We are prone to a kind of idol worship that is so subtle that we don't notice it. Until worship itself becomes a wedge.

The only real solution to the "disowning" and distortions of projection, is to allow the mind to transcend its regular thinking of discrete thoughts, and to "float to the core" of a deeper consciousness where all things are interconnected in unity, in one big "field."
IMO,

darrell

So why did God choose Apostles?
 
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Darrell Moneyhon

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The priesthood as established through the apostles at the Last Supper was very different than what had existed up until that time in the religious practices of Jesus and his generation.

For one, the priesthood was no longer hereditary, no longer the exclusive province of the one tribe of Levites. The exclusivity even went beyond the Jews themselves. Far from basing family on blood, Jesus himself laid out that anyone who follows him is his mother and his sister and his brother. This would have especially come across in his reaching out to Samaritans, who in the end were nothing other than the 'lost' tribes of Israel, the leaderless lower classes of Israelis left behind as the Assyrians scattered their elites to the four corners of the globe in their destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel, based in Samaria.
Jesus brought the Samaritans back into his tent.

The priesthood was no longer an exclusive club based on race, but an inclusive priestly nation, nations even, more primordial than the Levite priesthood, stretching back to the timeless Melchizidek whose own mythological origin has often been seen to a time before Abraham even, to the very beginning of human time.

For another, the priesthood was no longer localized. The prophecy of Jesus fully recognized this as he foresaw that the priests of Levi required the Temple of Jerusalem as the legitimate place of sacrifice, and this was going to be destroyed.
The Temple raised in three days was the Body of Christ, and the temple of sacrifice was as universal as the human body itself. "Do you not know that your bodies are temples?", Paul tells the Corinthians.
The apostleship of the twelve extends the priesthood away from the one tribe, away from exclusivity of Judah and Jerusalem to the fullness of God's people, to all who possess a body even.

A 're-sahendrization' of the religion would really mean a movement away from the sacramental to the sacrificial, to where the Temple in effect would be the exclusive theatre for animal sacrifice.

Of course this never happened historically. In virtually every Christian tradition, the priesthood remains one of the serving of the Body and the Bread, and priestly service being of a sacramental nature, with our bodies and our service and our thoughts and words and deeds being made into our sacred offerings to the Lord.

The main point of contention among Christians has never really been over a return to the Levite priesthood then. The contention is how exclusive is the priesthood to be?

Or, even more pertinently, does the priesthood save us? Is our salvation conditional upon receiving the grace of the sacraments from an exclusively defined ordained priesthood descending from a clearly demarcated line of secession from the original twelve?

"Constantine" has become a watershed event roughly based in history in which the ordained clergy has been seen to have become politicized. Even if this is not an entirely historically accurate picture of who Constantine was, caesaro-papism was a real enough phenomena, and it did become a pressing historic concern whether a Christian's salvation, which is to say, whether his receiving of sacraments through an exclusive, ordained priesthood became contingent on his political affiliation?
This is the conditions that become the reality under caesaro-papism as it has existed in all the major schisms.

On the most basic level, that is the source of the controversy that is with us even today. On the one hand, the need for an authority is still very much there. Truth is important to a religon based on "I am the Truth, the Way, and the Light.
There would be a very big difference, for most of us anyway, in being baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and Mother Goose, rather than the Trinity of Father Son and Spirit. Nevertheless, does that mean that we need accept the Pope's current environmentalist agenda in order to keep our salvation in standing?

It is a question of authority, and abuse of authority, and the nature of priestly exclusivity that is at the heart of the controversy.

"No salvation outside of the Church" always meant there is no salvation outside of the sacraments of a legitimately ordained, and therefore, an exclusive priesthood.
Dear Solomon VII, I think it was you that gave me the scripture where Christ used the metaphor of a fountain. When I looked it up in my Bible's concordance no New Testament verses were found for the word "fountain." Unfortunately I did not copy the scripture you provided, and cannot now find it here. Was it you that gave me that scripture? If so, can you remember it? Christ talking about a fountain as a spiritual metaphor. Sorry to be off-topic here, but I don't know how to do personal messages here, or even if I have that means/privilege.
darrell
 
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Dear Solomon VII, I think it was you that gave me the scripture where Christ used the metaphor of a fountain. When I looked it up in my Bible's concordance no New Testament verses were found for the word "fountain." Unfortunately I did not copy the scripture you provided, and cannot now find it here. Was it you that gave me that scripture? If so, can you remember it? Christ talking about a fountain as a spiritual metaphor. Sorry to be off-topic here, but I don't know how to do personal messages here, or even if I have that means/privilege.
darrell
You should be able to send pm's if you like, btw. Click on e person's name, and it should pop up a little box win some info about them and some options. You should see "start a conversation" - click that and it should open one for you. That's one way of doing it. You can also go to your inbox tab at the top and start a new private message, but you'll need to type in at least part of their name to do it that way.
 
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SolomonVII

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Dear Solomon VII, I think it was you that gave me the scripture where Christ used the metaphor of a fountain. When I looked it up in my Bible's concordance no New Testament verses were found for the word "fountain." Unfortunately I did not copy the scripture you provided, and cannot now find it here. Was it you that gave me that scripture? If so, can you remember it? Christ talking about a fountain as a spiritual metaphor. Sorry to be off-topic here, but I don't know how to do personal messages here, or even if I have that means/privilege.
darrell
I am pretty sure that it was not me that talked about that anyway nothing spring to mind at any rate(pardon the pun) about Christ using a fountain as a metaphor.

..
Anybody else? ...
 
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miknik5

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I am pretty sure that it was not me that talked about that anyway nothing spring to mind at any rate(pardon the pun) about Christ using a fountain as a metaphor.

..
Anybody else? ...
So why did Jesus choose to pick twelve Apostles?
as the first witnesses of the testimony and the law standing as the younger and the older generational sons of GOD
 
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miknik5

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Dear Solomon VII, I think it was you that gave me the scripture where Christ used the metaphor of a fountain. When I looked it up in my Bible's concordance no New Testament verses were found for the word "fountain." Unfortunately I did not copy the scripture you provided, and cannot now find it here. Was it you that gave me that scripture? If so, can you remember it? Christ talking about a fountain as a spiritual metaphor. Sorry to be off-topic here, but I don't know how to do personal messages here, or even if I have that means/privilege.
darrell
Look up LIVING water or well spring
 
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JESUS had apostles so that they would testify as HIS FIRST WITNESSES to the TRUTH of HIS cricifixion, HIS resurrection, and HIS ascension

But none of the Twelve were the first witnesses, the first witnesses of His resurrection were the women who came to the empty tomb. St. Mary Magdalene is often remembered as the Apostle to the Apostles because she is the one who came to the Twelve (well, the Eleven really) to report what she had seen.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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SolomonVII

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But none of the Twelve were the first witnesses, the first witnesses of His resurrection were the women who came to the empty tomb. St. Mary Magdalene is often remembered as the Apostle to the Apostles because she is the one who came to the Twelve (well, the Eleven really) to report what she had seen.

-CryptoLutheran
Mary was the first witness, but that does not mean that the apostles were not among the first witnesses.

Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”

They(Peter and John) both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first

And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead. Then the disciples went away again to their own homes.

 
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ViaCrucis

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Mary was the first witness, but that does not mean that the apostles were not among the first witnesses.

Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”

They(Peter and John) both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first

And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead. Then the disciples went away again to their own homes.


I'm not challenging that they were among the first witnesses. Just that the chief purpose of the Apostles isn't that they were the first. The Apostles were called to go out into the world, preach the Gospel, and build Christ's Church among the nations. I just think it's important to recognize that they are more than just witnesses, they were those called by Christ to the specific task of establishing His Church throughout the ancient world.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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miknik5

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I'm not challenging that they were among the first witnesses. Just that the chief purpose of the Apostles isn't that they were the first. The Apostles were called to go out into the world, preach the Gospel, and build Christ's Church among the nations. I just think it's important to recognize that they are more than just witnesses, they were those called by Christ to the specific task of establishing His Church throughout the ancient world.

-CryptoLutheran
There is only 12 designated apostles and their teachings are fundamental to THE FOUNDATION because they learned firsthand from THE LORD

This is to prevent "self-declared apostles" from adding to THE TRUTHand FOUNDATION

today these supposed "apostles" are simply witnesses to the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL and they do NOT go beyond what has been given us by HIS WORD

Anyone who adds to THE FOUNDATION is already made manifest that he is a false witness
 
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There is only 12 designated apostles and their teachings are fundamental to THE FOUNDATION because they learned firsthand from THE LORD

Just for the sake of correctness: There were more than twelve apostles. In addition to the Twelve, the most obvious is St. Paul, but Scripture also mentions St. Apollos, St. Barnabas, Sts. Junia and Andronicus. But as to your general point, I agree.

This is to prevent "self-declared apostles" from adding to THE TRUTHand FOUNDATION

today these supposed "apostles" are simply witnesses to the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL and they do NOT go beyond what has been given us by HIS WORD

Anyone who adds to THE FOUNDATION is already made manifest that he is a false witness

I'm not suggesting there are any modern or additional apostles. Self-proclaimed apostles running around today are false, no question there.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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LoveofTruth

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Is it because Jesus was instituting a clergy? Surely if there were no need for priests or bishops He would have simply trusted all of his followers or 'disciples', as a whole, to have carried out his message.

...So that means that there is still a need for clergy today to prevent apostasy and schism from the original Christian message too, right..? Or no..?


No there is no need of clergy today, John said we have no need that any man teach us the anointing teaches us of all things.

The apostles ( or sent ones) were one of the five fold gifts for the church. As we read in Ephesians 4, but the original apostles, had to see jesus whole life from his baptism to his death to be eye witnesses.

The bible does not speak of a one man pastor role over the entire church, or a division of the so called clergy or laity. Elders plural are more mature men who watch over, ( not Lord over ) the believers, but all can share and edify each other in Christ as he lead Ephesians 4:15,16. The authority is in the word they speak if they speak the word of God and as the oracles of god. All believers can have authority as they live and speak and minister in the spirit in the word.

Authority is not vested in a person or a static office in the new testament but in Christ as the head an through the body as he leads. Jesus warned of the false authority of men as Lords over others in false authority, and he said believers should not be so.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Is it because Jesus was instituting a clergy? Surely if there were no need for priests or bishops He would have simply trusted all of his followers or 'disciples', as a whole, to have carried out his message.

...So that means that there is still a need for clergy today to prevent apostasy and schism from the original Christian message too, right..? Or no..?


and there were other apostles besides the 12, we read to Timotheous and aliveness, and barnabas and paul etc
 
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miknik5

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Just for the sake of correctness: There were more than twelve apostles. In addition to the Twelve, the most obvious is St. Paul, but Scripture also mentions St. Apollos, St. Barnabas, Sts. Junia and Andronicus. But as to your general point, I agree.



I'm not suggesting there are any modern or additional apostles. Self-proclaimed apostles running around today are false, no question there.

-CryptoLutheran
Posted below
 
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Hello, and welcome to Traditional Theology for those of you who are new here. :)

Please take a moment and read the Statement of Purpose for Traditional Theology, as this forum has particular rules for participation.

Thank you.
 
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