Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary And the saints ?

anna ~ grace

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Well, of course Mary and Joseph did have other children, but that does not alter the fact that she was a (very blessed) virgin when she bore Jesus Christ.

But to find myself using that title kind of surprises me. Many Evangelicals I know will simply describe her as Mary, and not go into titles much. But to say that she is the Virgin Mary seems to infer that this is her current as well as past state.
 
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bbbbbbb

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But to find myself using that title kind of surprises me. Many Evangelicals I know will simply describe her as Mary, and not go into titles much. But to say that she is the Virgin Mary seems to infer that this is her current as well as past state.

Yes, I agree that is how most people understand the title and is the reason I tend to avoid it. There is a vast difference, as I am sure you know, between the belief of the virginity of Mary at the birth of Jesus Christ and the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary as promulgated by the Roman Catholic Church.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Yes, I agree that is how most people understand the title and is the reason I tend to avoid it. There is a vast difference, as I am sure you know, between the belief of the virginity of Mary at the birth of Jesus Christ and the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary as promulgated by the Roman Catholic Church.

I hear you, Sir but the thing is, it's not only the Catholics that believe and teach this. I'm finding that the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches, and even the geographically and theologically more distant Assyrian Church of the East also believe in Mary's perpetual virginity. Admittedly, a basic perusal of Scripture would seem to indicate that Mary had other, natural children by Joseph after Christ. But what if she didn't? That's a stuck point I'm at right now.
 
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Cappadocious

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Is dogma the same idea in the Orthodox Church as in the RCC? In the RCC dogma is essential to salvation. If you do not believe all of the Marian dogmas you cannot be saved. Does the Orthodox Church teach this, as well?
Short answer is no. Long answer is: Plenty of erroneous and ignorant people will be saved, the question is, will they want it? If God's truth includes that God was born of the Theotokos, what if some people simply won't have it? Or what if it turns out that, contrary to what you thought, denial of Theotokos entails denial of Christ?
 
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bbbbbbb

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I hear you, Sir but the thing is, it's not only the Catholics that believe and teach this. I'm finding that the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches, and even the geographically and theologically more distant Assyrian Church of the East also believe in Mary's perpetual virginity. Admittedly, a basic perusal of Scripture would seem to indicate that Mary had other, natural children by Joseph after Christ. But what if she didn't? That's a stuck point I'm at right now.

Only the Catholic Church makes it a dogma which is required for salvation. In the other churches, although it is widely believed it is not an absolute requirement for salvation. Scripture is hardly silent regarding the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. To view them as anything other than the natural children of Mary and Joseph requires some extraordinary feats of mental and theological gymnastics.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Short answer is no. Long answer is: Plenty of erroneous and ignorant people will be saved, the question is, will they want it? If God's truth includes that God was born of the Theotokos, what if some people simply won't have it? Or what if it turns out that, contrary to what you thought, denial of Theotokos entails denial of Christ?

Thanks. You gave an accurate answer. There are many what if's in life. I won't go down those roads for now. It comes down to what is the foundation of our faith. For Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians it is Holy Tradition. For Protestant Christians (and many others) it is the Word of God, the Bible. Where there is a contradiction between Tradition and the Bible, the first group always ignores the Bible and embraces Tradition, but the second group does the opposite. Both obviously are not right, so this is a serious matter, especially when you have one branch (the RCC) insisting that its dogmas are necessary for salvation.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I quoted a verse from Scripture as my argument. So if you're saying Scripture could be wrong...
Not at all, just our understanding. Scripture is the very word of God (the prophets spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit). Scripture is a means whereby we are enlightened by the holy spirit, and lead to Christ so that we may repent through faith. Since Scripture mentions Mary more than once and not just in passing, we know that she is important to us; and by following her example, we can be more and better Christians; so we honor her.
 
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prodromos

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Scripture is hardly silent regarding the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. To view them as anything other than the natural children of Mary and Joseph requires some extraordinary feats of mental and theological gymnastics.
Children of the widower Joseph is hardly what I would call mental and theological gymnastics.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I hear you, Sir but the thing is, it's not only the Catholics that believe and teach this. I'm finding that the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches, and even the geographically and theologically more distant Assyrian Church of the East also believe in Mary's perpetual virginity. Admittedly, a basic perusal of Scripture would seem to indicate that Mary had other, natural children by Joseph after Christ. But what if she didn't? That's a stuck point I'm at right now.

This is a topic for another thread (and there have been many, many threads on this topic), but consider this; if there were other blood children of Mary and Joseph; Joseph is no longer around (presumed dead) at the time of Christ's ministry); why were they not there to care for Mary at the time of the crucifixion? Without a husband and without blood male children, a widow would have been destitute. In caring love for His mother, he charges John with her care; caring for her as a son would care for his widowed mother.

Now, perpetual virginity aside, this makes a very strong argument for no blood siblings; step brothers and sisters maybe, but it would seem to indicate that Mary had no more children. This being the case, the PV is not that much of a stretch.

Also, as you noted, while not dogma in every Church, the numerical percentage of Christians world wide do accept the PVM.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Only the Catholic Church makes it a dogma which is required for salvation. In the other churches, although it is widely believed it is not an absolute requirement for salvation. Scripture is hardly silent regarding the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. To view them as anything other than the natural children of Mary and Joseph requires some extraordinary feats of mental and theological gymnastics.

See below...

This is a topic for another thread (and there have been many, many threads on this topic), but consider this; if there were other blood children of Mary and Joseph; Joseph is no longer around (presumed dead) at the time of Christ's ministry); why were they not there to care for Mary at the time of the crucifixion? Without a husband and without blood male children, a widow would have been destitute. In caring love for His mother, he charges John with her care; caring for her as a son would care for his widowed mother.

Now, perpetual virginity aside, this makes a very strong argument for no blood siblings; step brothers and sisters maybe, but it would seem to indicate that Mary had no more children. This being the case, the PV is not that much of a stretch.

Also, as you noted, while not dogma in every Church, the numerical percentage of Christians world wide do accept the PVM.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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BTW, this is the topic of the thread:
Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary And the saints ?

Conversational drift aside; the thread is not so much about Mary's hymen and her sex life, but about if, when and how Protestants can show her devotion.
 
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All4Christ

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Thanks. You gave an accurate answer. There are many what if's in life. I won't go down those roads for now. It comes down to what is the foundation of our faith. For Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians it is Holy Tradition. For Protestant Christians (and many others) it is the Word of God, the Bible. Where there is a contradiction between Tradition and the Bible, the first group always ignores the Bible and embraces Tradition, but the second group does the opposite. Both obviously are not right, so this is a serious matter, especially when you have one branch (the RCC) insisting that its dogmas are necessary for salvation.

You seem to have an incorrect understanding of the Orthodox view of Tradition and Scripture. In the Orthodox Church, Scripture is part of Holy Tradition. It isn't a competition between two different things. At the center of Holy Tradition is Scripture. Nothing will or can contradict Scripture. However, we also don't have an individualistic interpretation of Scripture.

If you'd like to discuss that more, I invite you to discuss it at St Justin Martyrs Forum - the debate subforum in The Ancient away (the Orthodox congregational forum). If you don't want to debate and just want to find out more, you are more than welcome to post in the main Orthodox subforum.
 
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MrMoe

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Not at all, just our understanding.

So how many ways can we understand (or misunderstand) "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" ?

Since Scripture mentions Mary more than once and not just in passing, we know that she is important to us;

So if Scripture mentions someone more than once and not just in passing, they are important to us? Where did you get this rule from?

I'm not saying she wasn't important, I'm just wondering where you got this rule that someone is important to us in the Scripture if they are mentioned more than once and not just in passing.

and by following her example, we can be more and better Christians; so we honor her.

What example? There is very little written of Mary's life in the Scriptures.

Was it her faith in God? That is not unique to Mary.
 
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bbbbbbb

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You seem to have an incorrect understanding of the Orthodox view of Tradition and Scripture. In the Orthodox Church, Scripture is part of Holy Tradition. It isn't a competition between two different things. At the center of Holy Tradition is Scripture. Nothing will or can contradict Scripture. However, we also don't have an individualistic interpretation of Scripture.

If you'd like to discuss that more, I invite you to discuss it at St Justin Martyrs Forum - the debate subforum in The Ancient away (the Orthodox congregational forum). If you don't want to debate and just want to find out more, you are more than welcome to post in the main Orthodox subforum.

Thank you. I will probably take you up on your kind invitation. Some forums are closed to non-members, so I generally try not to offend people there.
 
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All4Christ

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Thank you. I will probably take you up on your kind invitation. Some forums are closed to non-members, so I generally try not to offend people there.

No problem :)

We enjoy having visitors. Generally speaking, if someone comes into the main forum with a campaign to change all our beliefs (the attitude you often see in General Theology), then it isn't good for the main forum - which is why we have the subforum for debate. (Debate against Orthodox beliefs in general should be in the sub-forum.)

However, for those looking for genuine dialogue or who want to learn what we believe and why we believe it, they are more than welcome to the main forum :) We have several regular visitors who aren't Orthodox (and regularly have visitors who are just curious), and we are happy to have them there.
 
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thecolorsblend

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I hear you, Sir but the thing is, it's not only the Catholics that believe and teach this. I'm finding that the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches, and even the geographically and theologically more distant Assyrian Church of the East also believe in Mary's perpetual virginity. Admittedly, a basic perusal of Scripture would seem to indicate that Mary had other, natural children by Joseph after Christ. But what if she didn't? That's a stuck point I'm at right now.
The belief goes pretty far back too.

Origen said:
[The Protoevangelium of James] (from circa AD 120) records that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word... might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity.
-- Origen (Commentary on Matthew [A.D. 248])

Only the Catholic Church makes it a dogma which is required for salvation. In the other churches, although it is widely believed it is not an absolute requirement for salvation. Scripture is hardly silent regarding the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. To view them as anything other than the natural children of Mary and Joseph requires some extraordinary feats of mental and theological gymnastics.
Which led to...

This is a topic for another thread (and there have been many, many threads on this topic), but consider this; if there were other blood children of Mary and Joseph; Joseph is no longer around (presumed dead) at the time of Christ's ministry); why were they not there to care for Mary at the time of the crucifixion? Without a husband and without blood male children, a widow would have been destitute. In caring love for His mother, he charges John with her care; caring for her as a son would care for his widowed mother.

Now, perpetual virginity aside, this makes a very strong argument for no blood siblings; step brothers and sisters maybe, but it would seem to indicate that Mary had no more children. This being the case, the PV is not that much of a stretch.

Also, as you noted, while not dogma in every Church, the numerical percentage of Christians world wide do accept the PVM.
Ages ago I found a blog post on this subject. Our Lord's "siblings". It can be found at http://shamelesspopery.com/st-jude-and-the-brothers-of-jesus. If the domain name (eg "Shameless Popery") didn't give it away, this blog is written from a Catholic perspective. But the case is presented in a pretty fact-based manner. The point you mention about entrusting Our Lady to St. John's care is informative as well though.

BTW, this is the topic of the thread:
Can a Protestant be devoted to Mary And the saints ?

Conversational drift aside; the thread is not so much about Mary's hymen and her sex life, but about if, when and how Protestants can show her devotion.
Agreed. But leave it to certain people to disrupt an otherwise harmless conversation.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Protestant seems like it can mean lots of things. But if you're going to describe Protestant as one who adheres to the Five Solas of the Reformation, a theological break down of Soli Deo Gloria could exclude any prayers or lauds given to any apart from God, the Father or alternately the Godhead / One God in Three Persons / Three Persons of the Trinity.

If you describe Protestantism as Faith Alone Grace Alone Scripture Alone, Scripture does not *seem* to mention prayerful petition being made or permitted to any but the Father and the Son. You have no Psalms seeking mercy or help from Moses or Abraham, though their names do come up in prayers to God. So as to whether a Protestant who is strictly confining themselves to the generally understood tenants of Protestantism can ask for things from any but God, that is debatable.

If a Christian finds themselves desiring a Christian Home in which they can feel totally comfortable and unchallenged praying to Mary and to other Saints, a Home in Catholicism or Orthodoxy would make more sense than Protestantism imho.
 
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Samolub

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We dont need died saints, we need alive like in Bible (Saint- saved, new born, under grace)

We very like Mary and Joseph. But we dont belive God and Joseph has the same wife ! :D

we belive Mary was good Christian, was virgin to Jezus born only, she is daughter of God. Joseph and Mary was earth parents of Jesus only (not spiritual)

we think "women" in prophet doesnt mean Mary but church, sometimes Jezus Church or Apostate Church

we nothing lose if pray directly to God
 
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