How comes Catholics Bless Mary?

amariselle said:

I don't think we are actually in disagreement about Christ's human and divine nature. My point is that as God, Jesus is Mary's Creator and He existed from the beginning.

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It is a moot point because not one of the ancient churches has ever taught any differently.

amariselle said:

I don't think we are actually in disagreement about Christ's human and divine nature. My point is that as God, Jesus is Mary's Creator and He existed from the beginning.

And unfortunately, the Catholic Church HAS elevated Mary beyond any way she should ever be elevated.

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That's because in the old testament, it was prophesied that the redeemer would be comparable to the new Adam, and that there would be a new Eve... Mary fits the shoe for the new Eve, so prophesy has been fulfilled.

...One accepted the request from the fallen angel, the other accepted the request from an angel of God.

Landon Caeli said:

That's because in the old testament, it was prophesied that the redeemer would be comparable to the new Adam, and that there would be a new Eve... Mary fits the shoe for the new Eve, so prophesy has been fulfilled..

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That's reasonable to say.

But then when people take that basic idea and run with it, embellish it, extrapolate from it, make all sorts of farfetched comparisons...it ceases to be meaningful.

prodromos said:

Luke 1:31-35
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luke 1:41-43
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

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exactly ... she is the mother of the son ... who is born forth of flesh .. from GOD who ALREADY IS .. the mother of the son.
that is exactly what the scripture says .

so who ADDED mother of GOD ?? not the scriptures . MAN did .
i don't follow man . neither should you .but you do when you follow Rome and hold its words in higher esteem then the word of God by adding to the word of god what the word of god does NOT say .

Alithis said:

exactly ... she is the mother of the son ... who is born forth of flesh .. from GOD who ALREADY IS ..

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Then you do not believe that the Son is God? That would be a very serious 'protest'.

...Surely you do not believe that only the Father is God.

Albion said:

The number of attacks and accusations posted against Protestants on CF are legion. Some of your co-religionists, in fact, have gone so far as actually to admit that they are here only in order to smite "heretics."

And they come armed with every stereotype and dig against "non-Catholics" that they were taught by "the Church" to recite here. Would you like me to recount a few of them for you?

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And I have received, here and other places, all of the typical "you're a Catholic so you can't be saved, and you're going to hell "digs." I have been told by three year old children (not on the internet, but to my face), that I am going to hell because I was a Catholic, and reading a Mad Magazine. Let's all take a deep breath before we start throwing anathemas at each other.

Albion said:

No. The word originated in the 1520s when the Lutherans in Germany protested against the Holy Roman Emperor revoking the legal recognition of their churches, which had been granted only three years prior. They "protested" this legal or administrative double cross. It did not mean "a group of Christians protesting against Catholic Church teachings on Scripture, salvation, or anything else doctrinal."

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Quoting from Christianity.com:
At the Diet (a formal assembly of princes) of Worms in 1521, Emperor Charles V outlawed Lutheranism . But he was unable to stamp out the reform movement at the time because of other crises. Not until 1529 was Charles able to follow up on the Lutheran issue. He sent word that Catholicism was to be restored everywhere in Germany. Many German cities and princes protested. These were called the "Protesting estates" and from them we got the name "Protestant."


Charles saw that some sort of conciliation would be in order. In 1530 he attended an assembly known as the Diet at Augsburg. Lutherans presented the Confession of Augsburg in an attempt to prove to Rome that their views were Biblical. This confession remains the basis of the Lutheran faith. However, reconciliation proved impossible and Charles ordered Lutherans to reunite with the Catholic church by April 15, 1531. This had the effect of stiffening opposition against him. A military alliance of Protestants, known as the Schmalkaldic League came into being. Charles crushed this, but Elector Maurice switched sides and declared war on the emperor, forcing him to negotiate with the Protestants. In 1552, at the Peace of Passau, Charles accepted the existence of the evangelical church and promised to hold a "diet" to settle the controversy.


The diet was not convened until 1555. Again it was held in Augsburg. Peace was arranged between the Lutherans and Catholics on...September 25, 1555. In many respects it was imperfect. Although Lutherans were given legal standing, Anabaptists and Calvinists were not. "[A]ll such as do not belong to the two above-named religions shall not be included in the present peace but be totally excluded from it." Each German territory must take the faith of its prince. This inbuilt religious divisiveness crippled Germany's ability to unite as a nation. There was no toleration within a territory.

The Protestants were Protesting the Peace of Augsburg, and not the Catholic Church.

Monk Brendan said:

Quoting from Christianity.com:
At the Diet (a formal assembly of princes) of Worms in 1521, Emperor Charles V outlawed Lutheranism . But he was unable to stamp out the reform movement at the time because of other crises. Not until 1529 was Charles able to follow up on the Lutheran issue. He sent word that Catholicism was to be restored everywhere in Germany. Many German cities and princes protested. These were called the "Protesting estates" and from them we got the name "Protestant."


Charles saw that some sort of conciliation would be in order. In 1530 he attended an assembly known as the Diet at Augsburg. Lutherans presented the Confession of Augsburg in an attempt to prove to Rome that their views were Biblical. This confession remains the basis of the Lutheran faith. However, reconciliation proved impossible and Charles ordered Lutherans to reunite with the Catholic church by April 15, 1531. This had the effect of stiffening opposition against him. A military alliance of Protestants, known as the Schmalkaldic League came into being. Charles crushed this, but Elector Maurice switched sides and declared war on the emperor, forcing him to negotiate with the Protestants. In 1552, at the Peace of Passau, Charles accepted the existence of the evangelical church and promised to hold a "diet" to settle the controversy.


The diet was not convened until 1555. Again it was held in Augsburg. Peace was arranged between the Lutherans and Catholics on...September 25, 1555. In many respects it was imperfect. Although Lutherans were given legal standing, Anabaptists and Calvinists were not. "[A]ll such as do not belong to the two above-named religions shall not be included in the present peace but be totally excluded from it." Each German territory must take the faith of its prince. This inbuilt religious divisiveness crippled Germany's ability to unite as a nation. There was no toleration within a territory.

The Protestants were Protesting the Peace of Augsburg, and not the Catholic Church.

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I understand all that, but why then would it be used today, when that scenario has come to pass? What does the name "Protestant" represent now in terms of an individuals beliefs?

...That they are ethnically German maybe..?

Alithis said:

what does the scripture state .. not what your telling people it states that is for sure ..
but as i said .. show me the verse in scripture .. but you can not so you waffle on .

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Alithis, ponder this:
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. (Luke 1:41-45 KJV)

Now, Elisabeth is filled with the Holy Ghost, and she proclaims what God had shown her, that Mary is the mother of her Lord (kurios)--in other words, God. The whole idea of Mary bearing the Child Jesus but not the Word, the Son is the heresy of Adoptionism or Docetism.

Landon Caeli said:

I understand all that, but why then would it be used today, when that scenario has come to pass? What does the name "Protestant" represent now in terms of an individuals beliefs?

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I think the answer is that reformed churches have been called "Protestant" for so long that it's just logical to continue to use the term. I doubt that most people of any affiliation think of some sort of active protesting against Roman Catholic teachings every time the word Protestant appears.

As for what the word represents in terms of doctrine, the basics would be Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, the priesthood of all believers, and two sacraments of the Gospel. There might be a little fiddling with that list but these are the basics that set almost all Protestant churches apart from all Catholic churches. And BTW, this is why Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals, and some other churches are termed "cults"--because their belief system doesn't adhere to EITHER the Catholic profile or the Protestant one, even while they insist that they follow Jesus.

Alithis said:

exactly ... she is the mother of the son ... who is born forth of flesh .. from GOD who ALREADY IS .. the mother of the son.
that is exactly what the scripture says .

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You seem intent on ignoring Elizabeth's statement in Luke 1:43 which has been posted multiple times already, a statement she made while filled with the Holy Spirit. Apparently that verse is not in your bible.

prodromos said:

You seem intent on ignoring Elizabeth's statement in Luke 1:43 which has been posted multiple times already, a statement she made while filled with the Holy Spirit. Apparently that verse is not in your bible.

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nope i read it .. no mater how often you do .. it still does not call mary "the mother of GOd .. just doesnt say it ..

Monk Brendan said:

Alithis, ponder this:
And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. (Luke 1:41-45 KJV)

Now, Elisabeth is filled with the Holy Ghost, and she proclaims what God had shown her, that Mary is the mother of her Lord (kurios)--in other words, God. The whole idea of Mary bearing the Child Jesus but not the Word, the Son is the heresy of Adoptionism or Docetism.

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yup .. changes nothing .. my lord is born forth of God .. god himself cals him hos "SON ' that IS in scripture. right there for any one to read . God affirms his "SON" .. he does not call the son .. GOD he calls him "son' more then one time .. but he NEVER calls the SON the father . he came from the father and was with the father before the creation of the earth and by him all things were created because he is the word of God .. then the word became flesh and mary is the mother of that flesh man .. but Never the mother of GOD .. and that is why the scripture NEVER says that . because it is not true.

when you have to take two differing scriptures smash them together in order to defend a man made doctrine .. thats warning enough that its a deviation from the truth .
how is it that with all other unambiguous truth .. this does not need to be done . only with dubious doctrines of rome does this practice need to be applied in order to come up with defense for things not plainly written .
for exam =le ..Jesus rose from the dead .. this is true in the scripture , i do not need to ever take two other verses in order to come up the equation of 3 to defend this statement .

Alithis said:

nope i read it .. no mater how often you do .. it still does not call mary "the mother of GOd .. just doesnt say it ..

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It doesn't need to. Just like Jesus didn't need to say He was God in John 8:58 for the Jews to understand that is exactly what He meant.

Do you need me to collate how often God is referred to as Lord in the Old Testament?

prodromos said:

It doesn't need to. Just like Jesus didn't need to say He was God in John 8:58 for the Jews to understand that is exactly what He meant.

Do you need me to collate how often God is referred to as Lord in the Old Testament?

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wont matter . it still wont make the words your adding appear .. sorry but that is just how it is ..no mater what you say Or how often you say it -you wont make what is not there, appear .

Alithis said:

wont matter . it still wont make the words your adding appear .. sorry but that is just how it is ..no mater what you say Or how often you say it -you wont make what is not there, appear .

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It appears that the education system in New Zealand has failed you miserably.

prodromos said:

It appears that the education system in New Zealand has failed you miserably.

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because throwing an insult at me will change the facts ...?? lol. face it ... GOD is .. mary was not, then she is born of adams sinful blood line, then gave birth to a man who God declared to be his son .. thats the facts bro . its what the scripture states
here is another fact .it NEVER EVER states that the created Mary is sinless , nor does it state she is the mother of God ,nor does it tell us to venerate her , nor does it call her a co mediator .not does it say she is a perpetual virgin ..etc
The case is .. the Mary of the bible and the mary that the rcc speaks of .. does not appear to be the same creature at all .

dont need any education to see that ..

Alithis said:

because throwing an insult at me will change the facts ...??

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It wasn't an insult, it was an observation.

prodromos said:

It wasn't an insult, it was an observation.

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if it makes you happy ...

Alithis said:

when you have to take two differing scriptures smash them together in order to defend a man made doctrine .. thats warning enough that its a deviation from the truth .

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How do you know it is a man-made tradition? BTW, in looking over your posts, you seem to be following a few "Man-Made" traditions as well--such as believing that it's okay to only have a denomination of 1, which is in conflict with Hebrews 10:25. I can point out others, if you wish.