Weathering between layers of sedimentary rock

food4thought · Aug 23, 2016

Hi guys (and ladies);

I am a Creationist, firmly, solidly. Yet I have a question regarding the idea that most, if not all, of the sedimentary rock layers (and their fossils) can be attributed to the flood of Noah. The question, as my thread title states, regards the problem of apparent weathering of the sediment between layers. How do we deal with this problem.

PS: if you're going to give me a link, be sure that the link takes me directly to an article that answers my question... thanks in advance.

Luke17:37 · Aug 24, 2016

Here's a higher level article with several links:
https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/global/worldwide-flood-evidence/

This one (from the original article) is specifically about erosion:
https://answersingenesis.org/geology/grand-canyon-facts/no-slow-and-gradual-erosion/

food4thought · Aug 25, 2016

Thank you very much, Luke17:37, that helps me somewhat. I still have some reservations (I lean towards the Gap Theory), but I can honestly say that the article was helpful. I had asked someone before and they never got back to me, so I didn't have high hopes, but you exceeded them.

Luke17:37 · Aug 25, 2016

food4thought said:
Thank you very much, Luke17:37, that helps me somewhat. I still have some reservations (I lean towards the Gap Theory), but I can honestly say that the article was helpful.

I would go get this if you want more: https://answersingenesis.org/store/product/lie-25th-anniversary-edition/?sku=10-2-418& It goes into all kinds of millions of years ideas, including gap theory, progressive creation, day-age theory, theistic evolution, and why they are not compatible with the Bible (even though some Christians hold to them).

I remember debating my grandpa Thanksgiving morning when I was 14, and concerning gap theory, he said, "If it's good enough for Scofield, it's good enough for me." (Scofield put it in his study Bible notes as a viable doctrine, along with several other unbiblical things... I have a Scofield study Bible.) I pointed out to him what I'll say to you. Exodus 20:11 negates gap theory. In one sentence, God tied up everything He made in Genesis 1.

Exodus 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

My pastor, who is Jewish and fluent in Hebrew and formerly taught Hebrew in a seminary, said to me that the Hebrew doesn't allow for anything but a six day young earth creation. I agree with him. Although I don't know as much Hebrew as he does, I can argue against the person who told me how Hebrew supports gap theory.

Also, in Mark 10, Jesus said,

Mark 10:6
6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

The creation of man couldn't be "from the beginning of creation" if it were millions of years after it started.

Millions of years puts death and suffering before mankind and thus, before sin. It also suggests God called death and suffering "very good" (Genesis 1:31). But the gospel says death and suffering was the result of sin, and that a perfect blood sacrifice (death) was needed to cover sin (Leviticus 17:11, Hebrews 9:22). He promised a Savior immediately (Genesis 3:15) after they sinned, and Jesus is the promised Savior--the Seed of the woman, the Seed of Abraham, the perfect Passover Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world by His shed blood on the cross (Genesis 3:15, Genesis 22, Exodus 12, John 1:29, 1 Corinthians 5:7, Romans 5). God's solution to mankind's sin problem doesn't even make sense at all if death preceeded sin. A person might argue, well, that's human death, not animal death. But Romans 8:20-22 says sin corrupted the entire creation. One effect not explicitly given in Genesis 3 but that we can see is that the animals aren't all vegetarians today, as they were when God originally created them (Genesis 1:30). And, when Jesus reigns on the earth after He returns, He's going to be systematically dismantling the effects of the curse (see Isaiah 11 and 65), including returning animals to their Edenic dispositions and diets.

Please wrestle with this. It's important.

Another thing I recommend is taking a 3 day trip to the Cincinnati area to visit the Creation Museum (www.creationmuseum.org) and the Ark Encounter (www.arkencounter.com). It will really help bolster your faith in Biblical authority. I was just there two weeks ago.

God bless.

food4thought · Aug 25, 2016

Thank you again for the thoughtful response, Luke.

My understanding of the Gap Theory is that everything was created in the seven days, but that there was a previous creation that left the earth devastated and "without form and void". Note that God never "made" or "created" the earth, but the waters gathered together and the "dry land appeared". This tells us the globe of the earth, devastated as it was, remained after the judgement, buried beneath the waters. But even the earth had to be remade in the sense that it had to be uncovered from it's watery grave, given a new atmosphere, and repopulated with life. Everything else-- stars, galaxies, etc.-- was created/remade during the 7 days of creation.

As for death before man's sin, the passages you referenced are referring to this creation, not the previous one that was judged for it's sin. Same concept for the male and female reference.

What this theory allows for is that the earth may be very old, yet the creation new. It allows me to believe God's word without having to believe that dinosaurs roamed the earth with man (we would never have survived the situation). It also explains the many different forms of radiometric dating (flawed in their assumptions as they are) all come up with about the same age for the earth. Because of their false assumptions, they could very easily be off by a few billion years-- not to mention the other evidences for a young creation. But the actual sedimentary rock could have been formed previous to the current creation, and therefore be of unknown age.

I have spent a lot of time at www.icr.org , and am familiar with many of the arguments for the global flood laying down all, or almost all, the sedimentary rock. There are still other problems I have with that theory... but you have provided some links for me to explore, so perhaps some of my reservations will be addressed.

Thanks again, Luke

RickG · Aug 25, 2016

food4thought said:
Hi guys (and ladies);

I am a Creationist, firmly, solidly. Yet I have a question regarding the idea that most, if not all, of the sedimentary rock layers (and their fossils) can be attributed to the flood of Noah. The question, as my thread title states, regards the problem of apparent weathering of the sediment between layers. How do we deal with this problem.

Sedimentary rock layers and fossils contained within cannot be attributed to Noah's or any other flood. Sediments and debris from floods are quite different from sedimentary layers we find in the geologic column.

food4thought · Aug 26, 2016

RickG said:
Sedimentary rock layers and fossils contained within cannot be attributed to Noah's or any other flood. Sediments and debris from floods are quite different from sedimentary layers we find in the geologic column.

Interesting... how are they different?

RickG · Aug 26, 2016

food4thought said:
Interesting... how are they different?

By the process in which they are formed which is quite different than that of catastrophic floods.

food4thought · Aug 30, 2016

RickG said:
By the process in which they are formed which is quite different than that of catastrophic floods.

Sorry, Rick, I wasn't clear in my question. How do we tell the difference between them when we study them today?

RickG · Aug 30, 2016

food4thought said:
Sorry, Rick, I wasn't clear in my question. How do we tell the difference between them when we study them today?

The composition of the strata tells us where it was formed, such as limestone is unique to marine environments, although some is formed in freshwater. There are several types of limestone which provide more detail, such as near shore, continental shelf, or deep abyss. Since limestone is almost completely calcium carbonate, i.e., the shells of foraminifira, the types of forams indicate their natural environment. There are also specific chemical markers that indicate the climate and composition of the seawater. Shale is common in river deltas, marine sandstone and terrestrial sandstone are also unique in their formation as well. Besides dating strata, which is an absolute date, index fossils provide a relative date. And no, index fossils are not circular reasoning. The strata in which the fossils are contained is dated first. Then by recognizing that "index" fossils appear in only certain strata of between certain dates, a relative date is provided. And this doesn't even scratch the surface concerning the identification and information that can be obtained from the strata. Sedimentology is an entire discipline of its own, and within it are subdisciplines. In most places around the world the geologic column is incomplete, which is due mostly to erosion. However, there are 25 locations around the world where the entire column exists.

Questions?

food4thought · Aug 31, 2016

RickG said:
Questions?

Thank you for the information, no questions at this time.

Razare · Sep 6, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
I would go get this if you want more: https://answersingenesis.org/store/product/lie-25th-anniversary-edition/?sku=10-2-418& It goes into all kinds of millions of years ideas, including gap theory, progressive creation, day-age theory, theistic evolution, and why they are not compatible with the Bible (even though some Christians hold to them).

I remember debating my grandpa Thanksgiving morning when I was 14, and concerning gap theory, he said, "If it's good enough for Scofield, it's good enough for me." (Scofield put it in his study Bible notes as a viable doctrine, along with several other unbiblical things... I have a Scofield study Bible.) I pointed out to him what I'll say to you. Exodus 20:11 negates gap theory. In one sentence, God tied up everything He made in Genesis 1.

Exodus 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

My pastor, who is Jewish and fluent in Hebrew and formerly taught Hebrew in a seminary, said to me that the Hebrew doesn't allow for anything but a six day young earth creation. I agree with him. Although I don't know as much Hebrew as he does, I can argue against the person who told me how Hebrew supports gap theory.

Also, in Mark 10, Jesus said,

Mark 10:6
6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

Amen, thanks for sharing. I never bothered to study it too closely because I got better things to think about, but I do hear God and he speaks to me directly in my spirit.

What you said there, the spirit of God in me bears witness it is the truth, I am solidly back into the young earth creationist camp, yahooo!!! Just where I like it, bold and absurdly impossible because our God does impossible things first and foremost.

If it were possible to do without God, God wouldn't be doing it!

miamited · Sep 18, 2016

Hi foodforthought,

I think that the very first 'fact' we need to be aware of in any of these discussions about 'why is the foundation of the earth the way it is today?', is that we don't know exactly what the foundation of the earth was like when God first commanded it to exist.

Do we know, for example, that the day in which God commanded the earth to exist that the solid foundation under the water was just all one type of matter? Was the earth created with nothing but a rock base under the water? Was the earth created with various layers of solid matter? What effect did the earth being covered with water, much like it also was in the flood, have on the solid base underneath all the water before God separated the waters for the dry ground to appear? So, the first 'fact' is that we have no idea what the beginning structure of the planet was on the day that God commanded it to exist.

We, today, see rock strata and claim that this must mean that somehow, over billions and billions of years, the layers of the earth were built up. Why couldn't it be just as true, as far as any real evidence that we have, that when God commanded the earth to exist that He knew in His great wisdom, that the earth would need a soil layer for the growing of plants for food; that the earth would need some sort of rock base to support the soil overlay and keep it in its place on the surface and that rock base be made of layers of varying kinds of rock solids?

As far as I can tell, unless we have some sure idea of what the earth was like on the day of its creation, as far as its make up, we can't even begin to know what has changed about its original form and how those changes came about.

Now yes, there are fossils in some of the rock strata that would infer that those strata must have at one time been the top layer, but this doesn't apply to all the layers of stratification. It has been my understanding that most of the fossilization has been in strata still fairly close to the surface layer. This could well mean that, yes, the flood of Noah's day did cause some stratification, but not all of the stratification that we see.

So, for me, there are just a few too many unknown beginning variables to preclude us from being able to make any truly definitive claims about what has happened to the surface and underlying rock strata of the earth since its creation. However, I believe God. I believe Him when He says as a part of the law that He created all that is in the heavens and on the earth in six days. Further, I believe what He has also caused to be written to us regarding the genealogical timeline of the first generations.

So, because I believe these two, I believe, 'facts' of the creation, then by default I must believe that however we see the earth today, it has all happened in the last 6,000 years or so. This, of course, puts me at odds with the majority of what we now hold up as scientific findings of these things. But, I'm perfectly ok with that because I also believe what the Scriptures tell me about the wisdom of man.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Speedwell · Sep 18, 2016

miamited said:
Hi foodforthought,

I think that the very first 'fact' we need to be aware of in any of these discussions about 'why is the foundation of the earth the way it is today?', is that we don't know exactly what the foundation of the earth was like when God first commanded it to exist.

Do we know, for example, that the day in which God commanded the earth to exist that the solid foundation under the water was just all one type of matter? Was the earth created with nothing but a rock base under the water? Was the earth created with various layers of solid matter? What effect did the earth being covered with water, much like it also was in the flood, have on the solid base underneath all the water before God separated the waters for the dry ground to appear? So, the first 'fact' is that we have no idea what the beginning structure of the planet was on the day that God commanded it to exist.

We, today, see rock strata and claim that this must mean that somehow, over billions and billions of years, the layers of the earth were built up. Why couldn't it be just as true, as far as any real evidence that we have, that when God commanded the earth to exist that He knew in His great wisdom, that the earth would need a soil layer for the growing of plants for food; that the earth would need some sort of rock base to support the soil overlay and keep it in its place on the surface and that rock base be made of layers of varying kinds of rock solids?

As far as I can tell, unless we have some sure idea of what the earth was like on the day of its creation, as far as its make up, we can't even begin to know what has changed about its original form and how those changes came about.

Now yes, there are fossils in some of the rock strata that would infer that those strata must have at one time been the top layer, but this doesn't apply to all the layers of stratification. It has been my understanding that most of the fossilization has been in strata still fairly close to the surface layer. This could well mean that, yes, the flood of Noah's day did cause some stratification, but not all of the stratification that we see.

So, for me, there are just a few too many unknown beginning variables to preclude us from being able to make any truly definitive claims about what has happened to the surface and underlying rock strata of the earth since its creation. However, I believe God. I believe Him when He says as a part of the law that He created all that is in the heavens and on the earth in six days. Further, I believe what He has also caused to be written to us regarding the genealogical timeline of the first generations.

So, because I believe these two, I believe, 'facts' of the creation, then by default I must believe that however we see the earth today, it has all happened in the last 6,000 years or so. This, of course, puts me at odds with the majority of what we now hold up as scientific findings of these things. But, I'm perfectly ok with that because I also believe what the Scriptures tell me about the wisdom of man.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

So you're a Last Thursdayist.

RickG · Sep 18, 2016

miamited said:
We, today, see rock strata and claim that this must mean that somehow, over billions and billions of years, the layers of the earth were built up.

There is no claiming to it, it fact shown through geochemistry.

As far as I can tell, unless we have some sure idea of what the earth was like on the day of its creation, as far as its make up, we can't even begin to know what has changed about its original form and how those changes came about.

We have a more than sure idea.

Now yes, there are fossils in some of the rock strata that would infer that those strata must have at one time been the top layer, but this doesn't apply to all the layers of stratification.

It most certainly applies to all layers.

It has been my understanding that most of the fossilization has been in strata still fairly close to the surface layer. This could well mean that, yes, the flood of Noah's day did cause some stratification, but not all of the stratification that we see.

The stratification we see is not flood strata.

So, for me, there are just a few too many unknown beginning variables to preclude us from being able to make any truly definitive claims about what has happened to the surface and underlying rock strata of the earth since its creation.

That would be due to a lack of academic exposure to the geological sciences. If you could show them wrong through science you would win every Nobel Prize available in all the physical sciences.

So, because I believe these two, I believe, 'facts' of the creation, then by default I must believe that however we see the earth today, it has all happened in the last 6,000 years or so. This, of course, puts me at odds with the majority of what we now hold up as scientific findings of these things. But, I'm perfectly ok with that because I also believe what the Scriptures tell me about the wisdom of man.

I commend you for looking at it that way as opposed to the "intellectually dishonest" presentations by the 'creation science' community.

God bless you.

SkyWriting · Sep 28, 2016

food4thought said:
Hi guys (and ladies);

I am a Creationist, firmly, solidly. Yet I have a question regarding the idea that most, if not all, of the sedimentary rock layers (and their fossils) can be attributed to the flood of Noah. The question, as my thread title states, regards the problem of apparent weathering of the sediment between layers. How do we deal with this problem.

PS: if you're going to give me a link, be sure that the link takes me directly to an article that answers my question... thanks in advance.

You are welcome to be a YECreationist and fully reject the flood geology theory.
Nothing in scripture assures us that the earth was reformed by the flood waters.
My pet theory is that the water was of supernatural origin and had no impact
on geography at all. One of the benefits is that fresh and saltwater
fish could both survive, but God can accomplish His will as He sees fit
and my theories have no impact on reality.

RickG · Sep 28, 2016

SkyWriting said:
My pet theory is that the water was of supernatural origin and had no impact
on geography at all. One of the benefits is that fresh and saltwater
fish could both survive, but God can accomplish His will as He sees fit
and my theories have no impact on reality.

Then you are rejecting all the physical evidence that invalidates that pet theory?

Papias · Sep 29, 2016

RickG said:
Then you are rejecting all the physical evidence that invalidates that pet theory?

There is no physical evidence that invalidates his hypothesis. You read it - he says " the water was of supernatural origin and had no impact on geography at all. " and ".....my theories have no impact on reality."

His proposal is completely consistent with everything the geologists have found, will ever find, or could be imagined to find - including the lost city of Atlantis, a fleet of giant spaceships or a billion crocoduck fossils.

That's because it's Magic Water(TM). It can make anything or leave no trace, or anything else.

It's an irrefutable hypothesis, and then one of those comes up, discussions of evidence become irrelevant.

The hypothesis itself is irrelevant too, because irrefutable hypotheses are by definition pseudoscience. http://www.rusticgirls.com/how-to/how-to-spot-pseudoscience.php

-Papias

food4thought · Sep 29, 2016

So is there any evidence for the flood described in Genesis?

Speedwell · Sep 29, 2016

food4thought said:
So is there any evidence for the flood described in Genesis?

It depends on what you mean by "described in Genesis."

There is no Earth science evidence--and very little scriptural support--for the Genesis Flood of the Creationists. there is no reason to suppose, either from science or the Bible, that the entire terrestrial globe was covered with water to the depths of the highest mountains in 2400 BC.

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