How do you feel about women joining the SEALs?

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Billnew

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No combat position requirements should be lowered for any person.
If women can pass the requirements 100%, they should hold the position.
No special treatment.

Special forces depend on each other 100%. If you can't do the job you are a weakness. You will not be trusted to fulfill your job and the unity of the force will be destroyed.
 
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paul becke

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No combat position requirements should be lowered for any person.
If women can pass the requirements 100%, they should hold the position.
No special treatment.

Special forces depend on each other 100%. If you can't do the job you are a weakness. You will not be trusted to fulfill your job and the unity of the force will be destroyed.

Surely, no special forces would get special treatment. It's a contradiction in terms.

I believe there were some very effective 'special forces' women in N. Ireland. I don't believe they were army, though.

Anyway, I don't know if any of you are familiar with the incident, denied of course, by the politician concerned, when a officer told a group of SAS lads that the Minister for Defence had spoken to him and told him that he wanted the regiment to take in women recruits, and that they would need to get used to the idea. One lad put his hand up and said, 'Sir. We're not PC. We kill people!' The idea was eventually 'knocked on the head.'

Anyway, I read an old soldier from WWII say that, when you're 'at the sharp end', you're always more concerned to defend your mate than yourself. So, imagine how much more that would apply if your side-kick was a girl. Even if she was a real hard case.
 
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Gunny

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How do you feel about women joining the seals?

Very uneasy.

I respect the many women that I have met in all branches of the Armed Forces but I feel very uncomfortable regarding the experiment of women joining the Seals.

I truly loved the movie G.I. Jane and have viewed it many times but in my humble opinion it's a wonderful Hollywood spin.
 
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NewEnglandGirl

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Joined the Army after high school to get out of my home town. Went through basic with the men at a time when they first started doing this. Learned to fire the M-16, throw grenades, etc. Three years of my life but I would not want to be a Navy SEAL just for the fact of wanting to be a SEAL and be a woman. Standards should not be lowered for anyone and our military should primarily be a force to fight and win wars, to protect and defend our constitution. Not a social club. If they want to accept women and if women can cut it (heck, a lot of men that try out can't cut it) then it is up to them. Ultimately it is whomever can do the job effectively.
 
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St. Helens

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No special treatment should be given to them. If they can make the cut, then they can be a Navy Seal. The bar should not be lowered for them.
 
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Architeuthus

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This is a zombie thread

night-of-the-living-thread.jpg


Current DoD policy prohibits any female from being assigned to a Brigade or lower unit who's primary mission is to engage hostile enemies in combat on a regular basis.

The Combat Exclusion Policy seems to have been revoked in 2013, so things have changed since this thread was started.
 
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Bknight006

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I'm sick of all these people saying that women should get held to lower expectations. All of us are going to have to face the same things in the battlefield.

Exactly. An undertrained soldier is more likely to end up a dead one, especially considering what SEALs do. The WORST thing you can do to a soldier is hold them to a lower standard than their comrades.
 
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I don't. Not my place to have an opion on it, seeing as I am neither a woman nor a SEAL.

Though I really don't see any reason why women couldn't be SEALs if they wanted to and had the necessary skills.

It's not just skills. Female human beings, on average, have a lower hemoglobin count and less muscle fiber than males. They are, on average, smaller than males. (That's why you don't see them competing against men in the NFL or the NHL or the NBA.) They aren't "designed" for the kind of endurance and strength that is necessary for that extremely challenging field.
 
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Servant68

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BUD/S training is 80% mental and the rest physical. I've known a couple of women who had the physical ability and quite a few more who had the mental ability...

If they can make it through Hell Week then I say they deserve to be SEALs...

http://navyseals.com/nsw/hell-week-0/

"SEAL candidates commonly have the mistaken belief that Hell Week and BUD/S are all about physical strength. Actually, it’s as much mental as it is physical. Trainees just decide that they are too cold, too sandy, too sore or too tired to go on. It’s their minds that give up on them, not their bodies. While Instructors could get anyone to quit if they wanted to, that’s not what they’re after. They apply great physical and mental stress, sow the seeds of doubt, and give tempting invitations for trainees to quit. It’s up to the individual student to either turn it into increased resolve, or decide on his own to quit."
 
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DoubleZero

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BUD/S training is 80% mental and the rest physical. I've known a couple of women who had the physical ability and quite a few more who had the mental ability...

If they can make it through Hell Week then I say they deserve to be SEALs...

http://navyseals.com/nsw/hell-week-0/

"SEAL candidates commonly have the mistaken belief that Hell Week and BUD/S are all about physical strength. Actually, it’s as much mental as it is physical. Trainees just decide that they are too cold, too sandy, too sore or too tired to go on. It’s their minds that give up on them, not their bodies. While Instructors could get anyone to quit if they wanted to, that’s not what they’re after. They apply great physical and mental stress, sow the seeds of doubt, and give tempting invitations for trainees to quit. It’s up to the individual student to either turn it into increased resolve, or decide on his own to quit."

The 20% physical is 1000% more than most people have. No harm in letting them try it. Just don't lower the standards.
 
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Velvetyrabbit

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The navy has been training groups of women who go through a condensed form of buds for years now. They are trying to give them forward positions working as a female counter part a aid to the seals. These women who do pass this course are not frail by any stretch of the imagination. There are guys who do not want it under the idea that women are not as strong. We can't haul a man out of firing range... However the average height of a seal is 5-11... The shortest seal I've met is 5 foot nothing, and while he is very muscular- I suspect a muscular female who is 5-11 would have a far easier time dragging a 5-11 man off the battle field than a guy nearly a foot shorter. It's is all in their will. If a woman wants to and passes with the same standards as a man she has earned the right to be a seal
 
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Dave-W

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Well - we have now had 2 women pass the Army Ranger training. Rangers and Seals are both Spec Forces. It is only a matter of time before women start passing Seal training as well.
 
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South Bound

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I heard it was happening and I said, 'If they can do the work let em in.' Then someone said they'd lower the standards women have to go through to pass. After that I rolled my eyes and said, 'No wonder our military is still fighting two third world countries for a longer time than we fought World War II.' What do you folks think?

I'm against women in the military, in general. So I'd be against that, as well.
 
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Waterwerx

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From what I understand, modern infantry has and uses shaped charges to blow holes in walls so they don't have to expose themselves by climbing over the walls. We don't have infantry officers using sabres these days either.

Yes, let's just carry more explosives around because we don't want to have to climb walls, while at the same time reporting to the enemy where we are with each blasting of a wall. Better yet, just issue all military personnel their own ATV. Then they won't have to carry anything or worry about legging it. They can all have the endurance of couch potatoes while still being 100% combat effective until their equipment breaks. We would certainly have enough individuals getting into the military with much lower standards, although I wouldn't say much for it's effectiveness.
 
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paul becke

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The navy has been training groups of women who go through a condensed form of buds for years now. They are trying to give them forward positions working as a female counter part a aid to the seals. These women who do pass this course are not frail by any stretch of the imagination. There are guys who do not want it under the idea that women are not as strong. We can't haul a man out of firing range... However the average height of a seal is 5-11... The shortest seal I've met is 5 foot nothing, and while he is very muscular- I suspect a muscular female who is 5-11 would have a far easier time dragging a 5-11 man off the battle field than a guy nearly a foot shorter. It's is all in their will. If a woman wants to and passes with the same standards as a man she has earned the right to be a seal

I doubt that very much. the shorter guy, the man, will have a lower centre of gravity, in addition to the generally superior musculature. But you're right about the will-power, of course, often a function of courage, of heart. But I think there's something sorely amiss with your country (and mine, to an extent, the UK) that women should want to be soldiers, particularly infantry and special forces.
 
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Jonathan Mathews

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I heard it was happening and I said, 'If they can do the work let em in.' Then someone said they'd lower the standards women have to go through to pass. After that I rolled my eyes and said, 'No wonder our military is still fighting two third world countries for a longer time than we fought World War II.' What do you folks think?

"May their bones hold up beneath the added burden"
 
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Copperhead

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No combat position requirements should be lowered for any person.
If women can pass the requirements 100%, they should hold the position.
No special treatment.

Special forces depend on each other 100%. If you can't do the job you are a weakness. You will not be trusted to fulfill your job and the unity of the force will be destroyed.

Personally, any woman who would want to be in actual combat where physical close quarters combat is a reality is insane. Only those that know not the animal savagery such combat conditions would even contemplate or suggest the idea. My perspective is Viet Nam related and some things are different today, but many things remain the same from the time of the Spartans, thru WWI and WWII, thru Viet Nam, until today. Close quarters combat is nasty business. It makes a major bar room brawl seem like a love fest. Battles that last for days with no sleep, little if any food, limited water, no bathroom relief facilities, etc.

And one gets to live with that carnage for the rest of their life. It taints one's entire perspective on work, life, relationships, etc. The slightest of smells that don't affect some bring all of that past into technicolor imagery in the mind of someone who has experienced it. Like the smell of urine in a men's restroom that has been sitting. When someone is killed in combat, their body will usually evacuate urine and waste. Now it gets cooked along with the rotting carcass for a few days in the hot sun. I have spent over 45 years trying to have just one day of those past events not going thru my mind in some way. If not for the sanity of the Holy Spirit, I would have long since gone over the edge.

And any woman would want to experience that? And any man who thinks they should be allowed to experience it voluntarily should be taken out an flogged. Sure, there are many instances of women serving admirably, like in Russia during WWII. But any nation should only allow such things if the country is in immediate and imminent danger of being destroyed and having women serve in such roles only a last resort.
 
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paul becke

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Personally, any woman who would want to be in actual combat where physical close quarters combat is a reality is insane. Only those that know not the animal savagery such combat conditions would even contemplate or suggest the idea. My perspective is Viet Nam related and some things are different today, but many things remain the same from the time of the Spartans, thru WWI and WWII, thru Viet Nam, until today. Close quarters combat is nasty business. It makes a major bar room brawl seem like a love fest. Battles that last for days with no sleep, little if any food, limited water, no bathroom relief facilities, etc.

And one gets to live with that carnage for the rest of their life. It taints one's entire perspective on work, life, relationships, etc. The slightest of smells that don't affect some bring all of that past into technicolor imagery in the mind of someone who has experienced it. Like the smell of urine in a men's restroom that has been sitting. When someone is killed in combat, their body will usually evacuate urine and waste. Now it gets cooked along with the rotting carcass for a few days in the hot sun. I have spent over 45 years trying to have just one day of those past events not going thru my mind in some way. If not for the sanity of the Holy Spirit, I would have long since gone over the edge.

And any woman would want to experience that? And any man who thinks they should be allowed to experience it voluntarily should be taken out an flogged. Sure, there are many instances of women serving admirably, like in Russia during WWII. But any nation should only allow such things if the country is in immediate and imminent danger of being destroyed and having women serve in such roles only a last resort.

That makes an awful lot of sense to me. I read a book by man called Gregg who had served as an infantryman, initially with the Sherwood Foresters, but then the Long Range Desert Group for a spell, and then the paras. He was a POW between camps (en route to execution) on the outskirts of Dresden during the repeated bombing raids by our air crews, and was absolutely incensed by what he believed was a massive overkill that slaughtered relatively innocent civilian families.

He was clearly traumatized by his experiences, before that by multiple bayonet charges. One very sad thing he said was that he could see in the eyes of his opponents 'if they had it in them.....' In other words, was the bloke too empathetic to really go 'all out' to run him through with his bayonet again and again ; 'relish' doing so, would perhaps be too strong a word, as even Gregg was clearly not entirely without empathy, himself.

I suspect a psychopath would get the 1000-yard stare, as well, however, but as a very interesting American soldier remarked in a fascinating documentary on snipers, remarked, if you tried to walk past such psychos, you'd do so on the other side of the room, if possible. He remarked with a chuckle that the rest of the lads in the unit called the snipers, 'Murder Incorporated' !

I've just seen an article on this subject replicating almost almost word for word, those of a Scottish soldier, after the Battle of Culloden : 'If you had been where I have been... if you had seen what I have seen....' And as for the smell of a dead body ..... as a hospital porter (one of my many jobs), we sometimes had to go to the mortuary, and the smell of a decaying corpse, without any excretions mixed in with the decaying flesh and stewed in the sun, was very, very unpleasant, and I believe, unique.

I believe the very top sniper in Vietnam was a guy called Hascock, and he seemed to me to have been very traumatised by his kills, when I saw a brief clip of him in later life. But perhaps I'm mistaken.

My late stepfather, Vince Clay, would not have been much over 5', but after joining the Black Watch transferred to, I think it was no 3 Commando, which he was in until the war's end, when it was disbanded - presumably like the SAS, only for a time.

He showed me a photo of himself with Mountbatten who he was body-guarding at the time ; when he, himself, injured ! He was very proud and amused that he'd been punched by a big goon in the Hermann Goering division, when they were being marched to a prison camp, and he was playing the fool. Later, All commandos and SAS were ordered by Hitler to be shot on sight.

(When feeling aggrieved, after being told they were being disbanded with immediate effect, by an officer, an SAS lad asked why, they were [hilariously] told by His Royal Nibs, that they didn't like having 'gangsters' in the British Army ! It might have been 'brigands' or hoodlums').

Anyway, Vice told me that he had had to see a 'trick-cyclist' after the war - they all had to. In my naivety, it surprised me at the time, but it makes sense of course.
 
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