what is apostalic church?
- Thread starter janny108
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Razare
God gave me a throne
W2L... This is excellent. Welcome BTW to the Word/Faith forum.
I agree, he has WoF teaching correct in that post.
So there are 3 separate concepts in the NT about "salvation"... and these 3 separate concepts, apply across 3 parts of man: spirit, soul, and body
No Condemnation ... "going to heaven"
John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Mark 16:16 - Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Salvation ... "redemption" which includes here and now
The word "sozo" in Greek: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4982&t=KJV
Sozo is the same Greek word used in: Matthew 9:21 - For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
But it is also the same Greek word used for: that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9
So we see that salvation itself is above and beyond no condemnation, because it includes redemption and deliverance in this life.
In the past, people have argued over "will be" saved in Romans 10:9 as if it were a matter affecting heaven or hell. But sozo really is not addressing specifically heaven and hell, because sozo is greater than that and meant for this life. Sozo in scripture includes more than just heaven or hell, because we see that heaven or hell is a matter of belief, and can be described as "no condemnation" which may not produce bodily salvation (healing) here in this life.
Salvation was also available in the OT to everyone, Jesus did not come to bring us salvation which already existed, but rather came with something greater... that the sin nature in man might be destroyed.
Kingdom of God ... "new spirit"
What is the kingdom of God? It is a secret, revealed to Christians in scripture:
He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables - Mark 4:11
So the kingdom of God is the knowledge available to us Christians in the seed parables. This is the kingdom of God! We plant a seed in our heart, it grows, it produces a harvest.
The new birth of our spirit, works on this principle. In John 3, it says we must be born of water and spirit. The spirit portion of this happens when we believe in the gospel. It brings our spirit into the kingdom of God.
The kingdom of God is not heaven, and it is not salvation, and it is not "no condemnation" but rather it is power: For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. - 1 Corinthians 4:20
But you see to actually fully operate in the kingdom of God, other things should be done:
Then he said, "I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 18:3-4
It's not talking about going to heaven when you die! Matthew's gospel uses "kingdom of heaven" instead of "kingdom of God" in the other gospels. But God reigns in heaven, so it's the same.
It's talking about that to operate in kingdom of God power, you must be humble like a child. Without humility, it saps the power of God from operating according to kingdom laws.
Another one is unforgiveness Mark 11:25 ... this saps the kingdom power from operating.
But another one is water baptism.
John 3:3-5 - 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Now certainly, without water baptism, the spirit has entered into the kingdom of God. But the body has not. The body will still be bound, subjected to rules of this world... and the spirit is strong enough to resist this, but in the end, God will guide us to water baptism so we are delivered from a power our bodies cannot escape except through faith & obedience to water baptism.
To understand water baptism, you got to get Romans 6 and 7...
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Romans 6 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? 3 Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? 4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.
5 Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. 6 We know that our old sinful body (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4983&t=KJV) were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. 7 For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. 8 And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. 9 We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. 10 When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. 11 So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.
12 Do not let sin control the way you live;[a] do not give in to sinful desires. 13 Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God. 14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God’s grace.
15 Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. 17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. 18 Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living.
19 Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.
20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. 21 And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. 22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 7 Now, dear brothers and sisters[a]—you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only while a person is living? 2 For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. 3 So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.
4 So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ.
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"When we died with Christ" in context of Romans 7, is referencing the prior point back to our baptism into Christ's death by water baptism.
What happens then to a person not water baptized is that their born again spirit is free and in the kingdom of God, but their body is not free.
If you read above, Romans 6 is not talking about our spirit man, it is talking about our physical body in this life as verse 6:6 says. This "we will also be raised to life as he was" in verse 6:5 is really talking about a resurrected bodily life here and now in this life.
Yes, there is the incorruptible resurrection for the future total redemption of the body. But God gives a salvation to our bodies as Christians through water baptism, freeing it from the law of sin and death which restricted it previously.
If you imagine your physical body being bound in spiritual chains in the spirit realm, water baptism frees our physical body from those chains. The law which condemned it previously, reaping death in our bodies, that law is done away with in our bodies so that our bodies live!
When you understand and teach this, you will see miracles during water baptisms. Healings of the body and so-on. Many Christians have to later circle-back and put faith in their prior water baptism, realizing what God did for them during it.
And this water baptism deliverance, brings the body up to the point it can correctly operate in the kingdom of God for this life, so we are able ministers. Sick ministers don't do much for God!
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W2L
Well-Known Member
I got about a third way down and stopped reading. I believe that its possible that sometimes salvation may pertain to this life, and not specifically be referring to eternal salvation. I believe its possible and is something I have been thinking about lately. However, I don't believe that Jesus meant being born of water and spirit to mean water baptism. If that is so then why does he seem to refer to it as being born of flesh? (verse 6) Also, baptism is supposedly being buried in death, not born. Baptism is a sign of death not life. Romans 6:4
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Razare
God gave me a throne
It's a moot point really, because it tries to defend a doctrine that was wrong in the first place. That a person would be born again to enter heaven... which isn't what the Bible is teaching.
And like if you want to say, you think John 3's water is living water in John, it really changes nothing at all, because you still can't operate in the kingdom without being water baptized.
Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
So you can actually believe the John 3 "water and spirit" issue either way, and it doesn't change anything from scripture, because we can't revert back to a deception teaching on what the kingdom of God is and claim we hold the truth.
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Well so much for the thief on the cross,don't you just love the traditions of men?
You have to take a hard look at Phillip and the Eunuch.
The Ethiopian had made his way to Jerusalem seeking the Messiah spoken of in the Book of Isaiah,not finding The Gospel Phillip was sent to him.
If not for God's Word he would not have known of the Messiah coming.
We find him confessing Christ and being baptized,but there is no mention of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.
On the other hand we have Peter and John laying hands on the Samaritans, who were Saved and water baptized that they would recieve the Holy Ghost.
There are 2 varieties of Apostolic Churches,one is a Apostolic Christian Church the other is simply called a Apolistic Church.
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I disagree with this notion,but not debate or banter about it.
Repent and be saved,accept Christ in your heart,and at that moment your life is sanctified, and the Spirit of God resides in you.
Granted young Christians fall under attack,but water Baptism is a outward wittness of Salvation.
It is symbolic the same as communion symbolism is being the death burial and resurrection of us with Christ.
Acts: 1. 5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Matthew: 3. 11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
Water Baptism is a fundamental sacrament of Christianity, but the Holy Spirit baptism holds the key to all of God's grace.
Christ finished the works after he had risen and sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat.
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