lesliedellow
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Finding Where I Stand
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I have read in the past from both atheist and theist if you want to be funded you have to go along with the current theory. James Tour tells his students do not let your doubts over Darwinism be known unless you want to get into the creation/evolution debate. Otherwise it will be a distraction from your work. James Tour claims he know people personally who taking heat for signing the paper years ago about those who have doubted Darwinism. Darwinist wants to silence unbelievers.
It's exactly the same for other Christians who work in a hostile environment.
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Razare
God gave me a throne
I don't know which I am.
I was leaning maybe YEC... but recently I watched a WoF person talk about the Pre-Adamic period. Upon contemplating on it, I basically agree.
In Genesis 1, God hovers over the face of the waters. But the literal physical waters referenced there, already existed.
God made those waters, but he made them before Genesis 1, in the ages past, but what I never knew before, was that this period has a physical reality just like ours.
Now, this person believed the dinosaurs lived back in the pre-Adamic period, but I'm not certain about it myself. I really don't know, and I can't say.
Ezekiel 28:12-15
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.” 14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
2 Peter 3:6 - But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
But they were saying the waters in 2 Peter weren't Noah's flood but actually a pre-Adamic flood that judged the prior world. Really depends how you read it, and what it was intended to mean. But personally, I think they're wrong. I believe it does mean Noah's flood. But it's convincing what they say:
http://www.godsplanforall.com/preadamicage
However, whether OEC or YEC, I basically believe in a literal lineage from Adam, where death entered creation after Adam's fall. If there were death in the pre-adamic age, then obviously, God had restored creation in Genesis 1 not to contain death. I would never accept evolution, as God has directed my research to learn the proven facts which have already disproven evolution as a theory or hypothesis. It's factually wrong, so I could never believe it at this point, even if I became an atheist.
I was leaning maybe YEC... but recently I watched a WoF person talk about the Pre-Adamic period. Upon contemplating on it, I basically agree.
In Genesis 1, God hovers over the face of the waters. But the literal physical waters referenced there, already existed.
God made those waters, but he made them before Genesis 1, in the ages past, but what I never knew before, was that this period has a physical reality just like ours.
Now, this person believed the dinosaurs lived back in the pre-Adamic period, but I'm not certain about it myself. I really don't know, and I can't say.
Ezekiel 28:12-15
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.” 14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
2 Peter 3:6 - But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
But they were saying the waters in 2 Peter weren't Noah's flood but actually a pre-Adamic flood that judged the prior world. Really depends how you read it, and what it was intended to mean. But personally, I think they're wrong. I believe it does mean Noah's flood. But it's convincing what they say:
http://www.godsplanforall.com/preadamicage
However, whether OEC or YEC, I basically believe in a literal lineage from Adam, where death entered creation after Adam's fall. If there were death in the pre-adamic age, then obviously, God had restored creation in Genesis 1 not to contain death. I would never accept evolution, as God has directed my research to learn the proven facts which have already disproven evolution as a theory or hypothesis. It's factually wrong, so I could never believe it at this point, even if I became an atheist.
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Razare
God gave me a throne
As you study this out, don't listen to science. It has many flawed assumptions they accept without telling you what those assumptions are, which isn't even science, but they call it that.
Uniformitarianism is one... not just in terms of rock geology, but even assumptions like the laws of physics never change at any point in time... it's just a bad assumption that's unproven.
Listen to God, he guides us to truth.
Uniformitarianism is one... not just in terms of rock geology, but even assumptions like the laws of physics never change at any point in time... it's just a bad assumption that's unproven.
Listen to God, he guides us to truth.
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Not quite. God, the Holy Spirit KNEW that the waters came from the heaven (Air/Atmosphere) which was the FIRST thing created in Gen 1:1. He correctly showed that the waters were NOT created but came from the oxygen and hydrogen in the atmosphere. IF an ancient man had written, Gen 1:1, he would have said that in the beginning God created the heaven earth and water, but the Holy Spirit doesn't make mistakes. Amen?
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Razare
God gave me a throne
I have several thoughts on why what you're suggesting may not be the way to interpret it.
I'm not saying you're wrong, really, just that God gives me Bible wisdom, and when God gives it to me, I am 100% certain of the interpretation. And this happens to me because unlike most other Christians, I never park my ideology on a given interpretation without hearing with certainty from God.
This allows God to teach me, and when he teaches me, it's a triple-clad, iron proof thing that I can't doubt. It never hangs upon a single word, because that refutes the rules of scripture, rather than supporting scripture.
This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." - 2 Corinthians 13:1
I believe God will teach it to me eventually, but when I don't know, I don't know. The honest fact is, "beginning" is subjective in and of itself. Then also, we have to consider if not that you are correct, but verse 2 has a long period of time between it and verse 1. Jesus Christ quotes an Isaiah passage and puts a 2000 year or more gap where he cuts it off mid-sentence. And I have other thoughts.
It could be "God created the heavens and Earth" ... gap involving lucifer and Dinosaurs, God's judgement ... " The earth was an empty waste and darkness ..."
Thank you for sharing. I probably agree with you for the time being which is to say, I still lean in that direction, however, I do want to study the ages past where lucifer fell. I personally had always believed it was a fall that occurred in heaven, or perhaps during the garden period with Adam.
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I cannot find a Gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. I do know that Adam was made BEFORE Lucifer since Lucifer was an Angel. The order of Creation and dominion are the same. First, is God the Spirit, the Trinity, the Spirit of Love. He spoke the creation elements into the physical world. Next is the Son, called YHWH in the old and Jesus Christ in the new testament. Next is Adam, the common ancestor of all Humans. Next are the Angels who will be Judged by Christians. 1Co 6:3 Finally are the innocent animals.
This means that Lucifer/Satan whom you show was in the Garden of Eden was made AFTER Adam was made, since Adam (Humans) are above Angels in the creation order. He fell sometime between the 3rd Day, when Adam was made according to Gen 2:4-7 and when "every living creature that moveth" was made on the 5th Day, which was some 9 Billion years, in man's time, AFTER Adam was made.
Adam's world was totally destroyed in the flood. ll Peter 3:6 The present world/Cosmos was made on the 3rd Day Gen 2:4 and the present Earth is where the Dinosaurs were but they went extinct 65 million years ago. Adam's direct descendant, Noah, arrived on our Earth only 11k years ago and brought Adam's superior intelligence, which is like God's Gen 3:22 to our planet of prehistoric people who descended from the common ancestor of Apes. I don't know HOW satan got here physically, but he did since he tempted Jesus in the wilderness on this Earth. I hope this helps. God Bless you.
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Just a note to tell you that I was discussing HOW the devil got to our Earth on another thread and it came to me. He came inside the firmament with the Ark since Angels don't have to breathe. He wasn't inside the Ark, but inside the solid firmament which is still at the bottom of Lake Van today.
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tdidymas
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Your "6th day" idea doesn't come from scripture, it is coming from your imposition on it. You continue to confuse God's spiritual work and sustaining creation with the creative work that ceased. Furthermore, Heb. 4:9 that you quoted is NOT some future event, it is talking about a present experience for those who enter it. He is speaking spiritual truth. When you try to mix this message with physical creation and eschatology, you err in your interpretation.Why did you leave out the first part of Gen 4:4 which says?
Heb 4:4 For He spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all His works.
Tell us HOW someone can be born again Spiritually today, since it takes the AGREEMENT of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to "create" an Eternal being according to Gen 1:26 and John 14:16. God is STILL working today to fill His perfect Heaven with perfect people, made perfect in Christ. Just ask ANY Gospel preacher. When God rests (Heb-Ceases) from ALL of His work, it will be because His work had been brought to perfection. Otherwise, tell us WHY God ceased from ALL of His work for 24 hours in the beginning and hasn't rested since.
*** Lions have fangs for tearing flesh, therefore God did not create them to eat vegetables. Isa. 11 speaks of some future new age in which the creation will be fundamentally different, which likely corresponds to Rev. new heaven and earth. It is possible that lions had herbivorous teeth before the fall. But beside all that, it would be wrong to formulate some doctrine on that verse by speculation which is contrary to what Hebrews clearly states (which I believe you have done).
False since Gen 1:30 ends with the phrase "and it was so". This is a future event which will not happen until the end of the present 6th Age. The first 34 verses of Scripture are the entire HISTORY of the creation, including the events shown in Gen 1:28-31 which are future. We live today at Gen 1:27 because God the Trinity is STILL "creating" Adam (mankind) in Christ.
*** Yet Heb. 4 states clearly that God "rested from all His work." Hmm, I think you are confused about something in this case. The writer of Hebrews is declaring that God completed His work of creation in the physical creation, and this is typology concerning what the Sabbath signifies. Since God sustains all things by His power (Heb. 1:3), and is in control of all circumstances (Rom. 8:28), and by Him all things exist (1 Cor. 8:6), then it becomes obvious that God is always at work, because if God stops working then everything ceases to exist!!
Amen and that is WHY God will not cease creating UNTIL His creation of the perfect Heaven is complete and filled with ALL of it's HOST. Gen 2:1
*** Therefore, since the writers of scripture are always in agreement and there cannot be any contradiction in what they wrote, there must be some fundamental difference between God's work in creation which He ceased, and the work He continues to do. In fact, the John 5:17 passage is speaking of a spiritual work, which is quite different than the work of creating the universe. When you take two unrelated verses which have fundamentally different usages of the term "work" and you try to make them say the same thing, then you err in your hermeneutical method. Also in fact, I have repeatedly quoted Heb. 4:4 saying that God's work of creation ceased, and you have ignored or avoided it. What hoops do you jump through to deny what this verse clearly says?
Is Jesus God? Did He rest in the beginning? Is the Holy Spirit God? Is He still working today? Of course. God the Father is also still working and it would be impossible for Him to rest (Cease) creating or everything would fall apart. Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
*** This Isaiah passage was quoted to Israelite leaders as a prophecy of judgment. Are you applying this to yourself?
TD
My study is to show what Scripture actually says instead of accepting what some ancient theologian thought it said. God told Daniel HOW to hide His Truth in the increased knowledge of the last days, thus insuring that one MUST believe by Faith, until the last days when knowledge will be increased as it is TODAY, at the end of the 6th Day, the last Day, the Day of Salvation.
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
TD
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Your "6th day" idea doesn't come from scripture, it is coming from your imposition on it. You continue to confuse God's spiritual work and sustaining creation with the creative work that ceased. Furthermore, Heb. 4:9 that you quoted is NOT some future event, it is talking about a present experience for those who enter it. He is speaking spiritual truth. When you try to mix this message with physical creation and eschatology, you err in your interpretation.
TD
Not so UNLESS you can show us a time in the PAST when mankind had dominion or rule over viruses, mosquitoes and Angels 1Co 6:3 which agrees with Gen 1:28 OR can you show us a time in the PAST when Lions were vegetarians as Gen 1:30 AND Isaiah 11:7 states? Would God, Who sees the end from the beginning proclaim that It is very good when He can see that thousands children die every 24 hours of hunger?
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done
Genesis 1:28-31 is prophecy of events which happen AFTER Jesus returns to this Planet at the end of the present 6th Day/Age. Amen?
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No, not amen. I do not agree with you.
TD
That's okay. Try to refute my views Scripturally and you will. God Bless you
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There is no way. I used to believe as you do, but now I know better.
TD
When, in the past, did Lions eat straw like the ox? Gen 1:30 and Isa 11:7
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Why keep trying to revive this dead discussion?
TD
Why do you keep dodging the questions? Is it because you know that your religion cannot be supported by actual Scripture?
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I've often made the point that the age of the earth and universe are irrelevant to the doctrine of creation. I say that based on an exposition of the opening verses being ambiquise to when the time of the original creation was. I should add that from creation week I do not differ from other creationists much at all.
Indeed.
While it is rare there have been historical attempts to understand creation week as something other then literal days. It isn't all that bad to be honest but it's simply not a good exposition of the text.
The gap between the closing of the canon of the Old Testament and the time gap from that time forward is negligible really. The details are filled in somewhat by the New Testament genealogies and are easily accounted for. The timeline from Adam to Christ is readily determined as being between 4000 and 6000 years. That can never be reconciled to an old earth unless you allow for a primordial old earth.
The text couldn't be more clear, the difficulties are sometimes not easy to digest.
We simply don't know if death existed before the fall, it does seem that way but the Scriptures are largely silent on that matter. As far as the curse from Adam's sin is anything but ambiquise:
According to Paul:
Sin came as the result of, 'many died by the trespass of the one man' (Rom. 5:15), 'judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation' (Rom. 5:16), the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man (Rom. 5:17), 'just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men' (Rom. 5:18), 'through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners' (Rom. 5:19).
An old earth does not negate a literal reading of Genesis 1, I have always known that.
All of the living creatures including Adam would have been created mature enough to procreate. I don't think that's a stretch by any means.
I don't know if your still monitoring the thread but I wanted to try to answer some of your points. I wish you well in your search and sincerely hope you share some of the insights you may come up with as you struggle with these rather difficult questions.
Grace and peace,
Mark
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Luke17:37
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I recommend that you get a copy of The Lie: Evolution and Millions of Years. https://answersingenesis.org/store/product/lie-25th-anniversary-edition/?sku=10-2-418&
Adam's sin affected the whole creation (Romans 8:20-22), not just the things specifically mentioned in Genesis 3. For example, the animals were created to be vegetarian, but that isn't true anymore for many of them. When Jesus comes back and reigns on the earth, He is going to begin dismantling the curse. Two aspects of that are the animals will return to their Edenic diets and dispositions. See Isaiah 11 and 65. Since all this is true, pre-fall animal death can't be "very good."
Adam and Eve were created with adult bodies who could be fruitful and multiply (Genesis 1:28, 4:1).
The Bible says the flood was global and that it killed all life except those preserved in the ark (see Genesis 7).
So, the issue remains whether you are going to accept the Bible's authority or not. I strongly urge you to believe the Bible as written. A bad foundation in these areas (creation and the flood) can lead to disasterous results (2 Peter 3:3-9).
If you can, please consider planning a 3 day trip (at least) to northern Kentucky to see the Creation Museum (www.creationmuseum.org) and the Ark Encounter (www.arkencounter.com) You will not regret it.
God bless.
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Revealing Times
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The Light of the First Day was the stars. God said let the Heavens and earth come forth in verse 1. God said the earth was without form and void, meaning it was not in existence yet, but the command to bring it to pass had been given, and Darkness was on the Face of the Deep, then God moved on the face of the waters, that's verse 2. { So there was Darkness before the Light, which God commands to come forth in verse 3, and God moved on the face of the waters before he said let there be light, is this significant ? Yes, according to a recent science paper I read, there is "no such thing as light" it is only a reflection, so the water, imho, is what reflects the light. }
Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
{ So, does the map by NASA reveal a deep truth ? This is the WMAP/NASA map that they used microwaves to map out the entire universe from the beginning of time/universe, until now. }
Inflation, followed by 380,000 years of after-glow, followed by 400 MILLION YEARS OF DARKNESS (Just like God said, there was Darkness on the face of the Deep) followed by Stars coming into existence at the 400 Million year Mark. Quantum Fluctuation is another name for a Set of Forces or Laws of Nature (God) he commanded Inflation (Big Bang) and the universe was on its way. He never had to command it again, thus he created the Heavens and the Earth in Verse 1 on Day 1, even though the Earth came forth 9.2 Billion years latter at the 4.5 Billion BC mark.
God said He rested, so we are living in the Seventh Day, Man was created on the Sixth day. This proves the days are Periods of Time, the Seventh day is still going on 6000 years later.
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Revealing Times
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You need to prove it true first. And by the way, most Creationists understand the universe is 13.7 Billion years old. But you are living in la la land if you claim to have proof we evolved from a lower life form. Its all talk.
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