How is "justification" defined?

DingDing said:

Please think about your reply. Is this your whole and only response? You have not yet even addressed the scriptures I have mentioned. Please, to the best of your ability, address the two scriptures I mentioned (the Sermon and Romans 2:5-10). And ask for help from others if you need to; but please address the scriptures I mentioned. This really is important stuff.

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I agree with you. Romans 2 clearly - and I mean completely unambiguously - declares that the awarding of eternal life is based on how we have lived. However, I generally interpret this text in a manner you have probably seen expressed before: the good works that are the "test" for salvation are really just the evidence of a salvation procured on other grounds - faith."

samir said:

You're contradicting yourself. If infants haven't done anything wrong and can't be held accountable then why do you think they deserve Hell?

If infants don't believe and haven't accepted Christ then they can't go to Heaven. Therefore, they must go to Hell. If they don't go to Heaven or Hell then logically they must go somewhere else. The 3rd place is called limbo and you can find it taught in scripture in several places in both the Old and New Testaments.

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Who is the Author of salvation? Who has determined all things and their purposes? Who takes full responsibility for the eternal well-being of the young, mentally impaired, etc. who haven't accepted Christ? God. Take it up with Him.

expos4ever said:

I am always surprised when I see people claiming that Christ was perfectly obedient to the Law of Moses.

He was anything but:

1. Jesus tells his audience that no food makes them unclean! This is in direct contradiction to the Law of Moses;
2. Jesus touches a menstruating women and dead bodies - both render one unclean according to the Law of Moses;
3. Jesus declares that He is the place to go for forgiveness of sins; the Law of Moses says you go to the Temple;
4. Jesus broke the Sabbath.

...and I think there a lot more.

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Geralt said:

"you think" ? following the law is not your viewpoint of doing this and that.

And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him." John 8:29​

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I don't understand the first sentence of your post. As to the John quote, there is no reason to believe that "the things that are pleasing to him" include the prescriptions of the Law of Moses.

I notice you did not challenge my assertions that Jesus "broke" the Law of Moses. Do you have a counterargument to present?

expos4ever said:

I don't understand the first sentence of your post. As to the John quote, there is no reason to believe that "the things that are pleasing to him" include the prescriptions of the Law of Moses.

I notice you did not challenge my assertions that Jesus "broke" the Law of Moses. Do you have a counterargument to present?

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Geralt said:

i was wondering you tag yourself a christian and yet accuse christ of breaking the law ? are you displaying your hypocrisy or your doubt ? obviously if christ broke the law, this qualifies him as a breaker of the law, and therefore no atonement for yourself.​

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Please don't play this game. I made clear assertions about what the Bible says. Are you going to deal with them or not?

I believe Jesus clearly did break the Law of Moses - of that there is really little doubt. When Jesus tells His listeners (Jews) that no food makes them unclean, this is in direct contravention of the Law of Moses!

So I am not sure why you think Jesus always obeyed the Law - there are multiple clear examples where He did not.

EmSw said:

The scriptures that are available, put your belief against God. No one is responsible or held accountable for other's sins - NO ONE!

Ezekiel 18
The word of the Lord came to me again, saying,
2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die.

17...He shall not die for the iniquity of his father; he shall surely live!

God said we shall no longer use this proverb. Yet many today do just that. No one shall die for the iniquity of his father - NO ONE! The beliefs which have crept into the church are amazing.

As far as Ephesians 2 is concerned, people do not read what it actually says.

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

The children of wrath are those who ONCE WALKED according to the world in the sons of disobedience. These children of wrath all once conducted themselves in the lusts of the flesh. This is absolutely nothing which is talking about unborn children - NONE!

Unless you believe in reincarnation, this has nothing to do with unborn children.

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My words from post #110 in this thread were:
--David

expos4ever said:

Please don't play this game. I made clear assertions about what the Bible says. Are you going to deal with them or not?

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Geralt said:

were in the bible does it say christ broke the law of moses ? none.

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There are clear examples of Jesus either breaking the Law or challenging the continued validity of the Law. Here is an example of the latter: Jesus clearly declares all food clean. And surely you this goes directly against the Law of Moses. From Mark 7:

When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. 18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and [g]is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Now then, I anticipate the way you will spin this to make it say something other than what it clearly says. Which is that no food is unclean to eat.

At that goes directly against multiple provisions of the Law of Moses.

Geralt said:

i was wondering you tag yourself a christian and yet accuse christ of breaking the law ? are you displaying your hypocrisy or your doubt ?​

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What? Why do you think breaking the law of Moses means no atonement? Why don't you think a sinless sacrifice was enough?

samir said:

I don't think anyone is accusing Christ of breaking the moral law which would make him guilty of sin but only of breaking the law God gave to Moses for the nation of Israel to follow until the Messiah came.

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Bingo.

now we know who is playing games

expos4ever said:

Bingo.

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Geralt said:

now we know who is playing games

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How? Please be specific. How am I in any sense playing games.

To recap:

1. You declared that Jesus obeyed the Law of Moses perfectly;
2. I stated otherwise;
3. You challenged me to support my claim with scripture;
4. I did.

How is this "playing games"?

tell us, what is the moral law apart from the law of moses ?
the law of moses encompasses both moral, ceremonial and judiciary.

"God breaking the law of moses" ?? moses did made the law, God did.
so might as well say christ broke the law God gave to moses. but you wont, that's the problem. but convenient.

samir said:

I don't think anyone is accusing Christ of breaking the moral law which would make him guilty of sin but only of breaking the law God gave to Moses for the nation of Israel to follow until the Messiah came. Do you think Jesus was subject to the law of Moses?​

What? Why do you think breaking the law of Moses means no atonement? Why don't you think a sinless sacrifice was enough?

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Geralt said:

so might as well say christ broke the law God gave to moses. but you wont, that's the problem. but convenient.

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Heavens to mergatroid man! I have already clearly shown that Jesus encouraged others to break the Law of Moses! Are you simply pretending I have not done this?

I actually agree that there is no concrete identification of a "moral" law but I did not want to argue that since I agree with the essence of what Samir was posting.

samir said:

Do you think Jesus was subject to the law of Moses?

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Hi Samir, St. Paul tells us:


The "man", Christ Jesus, was born under or subject to the Law of Moses, and He obeyed those laws to fulfill all righteousness for our sakes. But even if you separate Him from the Incarnation, do you think God would ever break His own laws?

samir said:

What? Why do you think breaking the law of Moses means no atonement? Why don't you think a sinless sacrifice was enough?

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If Jesus broke the Law of Moses, His act would have been a sinful one, thus negating the possibility of Him being a "sinless" sacrifice on our behalf, right! We are saved both by the perfect, sinless life He led for us, and by the death He died in our places on the Cross. So the life He led, and the death He died, were both absolutely essential for our salvation.

It seems like you understand all this from what you said above, but some of what you said seemed a bit confusing, so I just wanted to be sure

Yours and His,
David

Geralt said:

tell us, what is the moral law apart from the law of moses ?
the law of moses encompasses both moral, ceremonial and judiciary.

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You just answered your own question. Since the law of Moses encompasses both moral, ceremonial and judiciary a person who breaks a ceremonial part of the law of Moses has not broken the moral law of God. Non-Israelites (who were never subject to the law of Moses) who ate an "unclean" animal or didn't do the ritual bowl washing did not break the moral law even though they disobeyed the law of Moses.

"God breaking the law of moses" ?? moses did made the law, God did.

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I know. How is that relevant?

so might as well say christ broke the law God gave to moses. but you wont, that's the problem. but convenient.

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I would have no problem saying Christ broke the law God gave to Moses if he did because Christ is above the law. He is not subject to the Sabbath. He is Lord of the Sabbath.

About food and dietary laws, Christ said He is the Lord of the sabbath.
Christ admitted that eating of the showbread was unlawful to eat except for the priests, yet God permitted David and his men to do so.
Christ here is displaying His authority over such matters and of course Christ is greater than Moses, being the Lord, His decision supercedes all such things.

For He does what? Well He does whatever He pleases.

Psalm 115:3
But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Psalm 135:6
Whatever the Lord pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Ecclesiastes 3:14
I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, And nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Ecclesiastes 8:3
Do not be hasty to go from his presence. Do not take your stand for an evil thing, for he does whatever pleases him.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

A king, really a tyrant is the Lord our God. But a good one He is.

Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath
23 Now it happened that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain. 24 And the Pharisees said to Him, “Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

25 But He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: 26 how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?”

27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

Ecclesiastes 3:14
I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, And nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him.

This is a very good verse to understand eternal salvation for with eternal salvation comes eternal consolations.
Lazarus in life on this earth received his bad things but now he is comforted and the rich man is tormented.
What great and good works did Lazarus do to earn for himself heaven?
But maybe he had love for others, even though in poverty and did not curse those who were rich or blame them for his impoverished condition.

If God has made of you created as a new creature in Christ, that He will not undo.
God is the author and finisher of your faith.
God makes all things work to the good of those He has called to be conformed to the image of His dear Son Christ.
Since He is all powerful and does whatever He wants, and He says whatever He does, it is forever, then eternity is set into the hearts of those He has called to Himself and He will make it so, for the gifts and calling of God is irrevocable. You can fight God, but God will win, His will over you is absolute as to your destiny.

Yes, men should fear before Him, for in His hands is your very breath and life at all times.

St_Worm2 said:

The "man", Christ Jesus, was born under or subject to the Law of Moses, and He obeyed those laws to fulfill all righteousness for our sakes. But even if you separate Him from the Incarnation, do you think God would ever break His own laws?



If Jesus broke the Law of Moses, His act would have been a sinful one, thus negating the possibility of Him being a "sinless" sacrifice on our behalf, right!

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Jesus both broke the law and challenged it. No one is dealing with mark 7 where Jesus clearly challenges many of the food laws.

Did Jesus sin? Of course not. But He definitely broke the law of Moses on several occasions.