lutheran understanding of sin

dms1972

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I have read in various places that Luther's understanding of sin was incurvatis in se, developed from St Augustine, meaning to be curved in on oneself, neither open to God, or neighbour.

I was wondering in Lutheran theology how one is delivered from this state, and if once delivered whether one can become once again incurvatis in se?

Also I was looking at a book by Bonhoeffer called Act and Being which seems to explain incurvatis in se, has anyone read this? Who would this book be helpful to, would it help someone who is themself incurvatis in se?
 

yeshuaslavejeff

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I was born and raised Lutheran , and remained Lutheran for decades.
(Not just one or two days a week, but 5, 6, or 7 days a week except for summer vacation , until college, and then Lutheran/ Methodist/ Christian several days a week for a couple years; and then the real adventure began ! (but that's for another thread) )

i.e. Lutheran baptism, confirmation, grade school and high school....
it was 'perfect' :)

Anyway, for sin, we learned that Jesus died for our sin, was crucified, dead and buried, and rose on the third day never to die again.
His Blood was the Atonement for our sin.
His Death and Resurrection was the assurance we had that we would be resurrected.

Repentance was the way to be restored to God in 'good standing' or 'right standing' (any sin we knew of could be repented of --- whatever the unforgiveable sin was, no one ever specified) ...
OH,
and repenting of sin meant actually stopping from sinning, from the heart as well as in action/ deed... NOT repent today, sin again, repent again, sin again, as if it was okay to do that willingly (i.e. not really meaning to repent, just doing it to get brownie points with God or church wouldn't work)....

I haven't attended a Lutheran church except a few times on/off since the 90's, and don't know what they are teaching these days, nor what their official 'theology' is.
 
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dms1972

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thanks for sharing / explaining

In asking i am not seeking to criticise or find fault with lutheranism, i just want to understand better.

I grew up presbyterian, baptised as a baby, but told that i couldn't count on that, that i had to come to a decision of faith. So our catechism was the Westminster. But i never done it.
 
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dms1972

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With regard to sin, you say that repentance is understood /means a decision about sin. Is this then in regard to specific sins(plural). Does that then hold while one believes. If one become atheistic, skeptical and unbelieving what then? Can they be restored?

I know from my own experience and from what i read of others that people struggle with repeating sins, sometimes cease to recognise something as sin (for instance looking at inappropriate content).
 
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John Davidson

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I have read in various places that Luther's understanding of sin was incurvatis in se, developed from St Augustine, meaning to be curved in on oneself, neither open to God, or neighbour.

I was wondering in Lutheran theology how one is delivered from this state, and if once delivered whether one can become once again incurvatis in se?

Also I was looking at a book by Bonhoeffer called Act and Being which seems to explain incurvatis in se, has anyone read this? Who would this book be helpful to, would it help someone who is themself incurvatis in se?

Hi dms1972,
It doesn't seem that the term "incurvatus in se" has a very large place in Lutheranism. I have never heard it mentioned from the pulpit. However the ideas espoused by this doctrine are paramount in Lutheran thinking even though it may not be named as such.

When I googled it I did find a Wikipedia article that mentioned the following:

Martin Luther expounded on this in his Lectures on Romans and described this state as:

"Our nature, by the corruption of the first sin, [being] so deeply curved in on itself that it not only bends the best gifts of God towards itself and enjoys them (as is plain in the works-righteous and hypocrites), or rather even uses God himself in order to attain these gifts, but it also fails to realize that it so wickedly, curvedly, and viciously seeks all things, even God, for its own sake."


As for the Bonhoeffer book, I'm sorry I haven't had the pleasure of reading it.

As far as your question goes as to how "one is delivered from this state" I think it is important to remember that as Lutherans we admit that we are "poor miserable sinners". This means that we may never overcome this sinful condition but we are accepted into God's kingdom through the sacrifice of Christ.

But I would say that if we are too be delivered from this sinful state at all that it is only through faith in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. Only by God's grace and him working through us can we be delivered from this condition.

Lastly, perhaps you should contact a Lutheran pastor and ask them these questions as they would be best equipped to answer.
 
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FireDragon76

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Augustine talks about concupiscence as taking perverse pleasure in what is evil. I'm not sure it's exactly the same as Luther's ideas.

Luther's ideas seem a bit incoherent at times on this point, like every single desire we could have is sinful or bad. I would be careful going down that route.

Furthermore, some feminist or liberationist theologians have critiqued the concept of sin as merely a human being incurvatus in se. It potentially fails to account for how sin distorts a person's sense of integrity. It potentially reflects a view of the self reflecting power and privilege. Minority groups or women often do not have the sense of power or privilege to feel proud in the first place. They struggle with feeling worthless.

Think of Jesus telling Martha that Mary has chosen the better path. Yet Martha was being selfless and helping with chores, Mary had the sense of integrity to take the opportunity to listen to Christ while he was still with her.
 
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dms1972

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I am not sure I understand what these theologians are saying. The bible says humankind is in a state of sin since the disobedience in the garden of Eden, This seems to be understood in Lutheran theology - being incurved on oneself, obviously Adam and Eve were not 'incurvatis en se' at their creation.

But some feminist theologians seem to just have a problem with bible and christianity per se. Perhaps that is because of the way it has been interpreted and taught to them? But rather than seeking to find what the Scriptures really say about manhood and womenhood and correcting misunderstandings through a better more balanced understanding (as Leanne Payne seeks to do in her books) , some are instead embracing paganism. I don't know what their experiences have been in the church, though it seems likely some may have experienced a distorted version of christianity. They are not really doing theology however, or biblical exegesis. Some of them want to change christianity into a different religion.
 
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FireDragon76

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As the pastor at church said last sunday, he's been advised by the ELCA's local synod that preaching humility has been abused a lot and used to oppress people of color and LGBT persons. They've had to carry a heavy cross their entire lives (I can attest to this, having known many gay people, and I live in a minority neighborhood). So he was careful to avoid over-emphasizing a plea for humility from last Sunday's Gospel reading. He ended his sermon with the point, "It isn't a question of "Black Lives Matter vs. "All Lives Matter"... Your life matters". The sermon did something to people. Everyone became dead silent and a few women started sobbing, which has to be unusual for a Lutheran church.

I've been to churches before where there is a never-ending plea to just be more humble and selfless, regardless of the audience. And its one thing that bothers me a lot. A good message for middle class affluent white people, perhaps, but really hurts everybody else.
 
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The term "incurvatus in se" may not be used that often in Lutheran preaching, few speak Latin these days anyway, but is at the very core of Lutheranism. Its about how man after the fall is incapable to live a life without sin. In your heart of hearts there is something that will make you sin over and over again no matter how you try. Hence salvation through works is impossible and our only hope is in Christ.

I find this to be so true. There is not a single day or hour when I live up to my own standards if I look at thoughts, words and actions. And then that's only my own and not God's standards. I suspect that every human being would feel the same if they reflected on their behaviour.
 
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I have read in various places that Luther's understanding of sin was incurvatis in se, developed from St Augustine, meaning to be curved in on oneself, neither open to God, or neighbour.

I was wondering in Lutheran theology how one is delivered from this state, and if once delivered whether one can become once again incurvatis in se?

Also I was looking at a book by Bonhoeffer called Act and Being which seems to explain incurvatis in se, has anyone read this? Who would this book be helpful to, would it help someone who is themself incurvatis in se?
Since you seem to be someone who enjoys doing your own reading and investigating, I would suggest researching the Lutheran doctrine of Simul Iustus et Peccator, which details how fallen man, once converted by God's Word, continues to exist simultaneously as justified and yet sinner until freed from the condition of sinfulness by the death of the physical body, to be raised without stain of sin at the Resurrection.

Best wishes to you as you explore Lutheran doctrine.
 
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