WHATS THE DEAL ABOUT MRS ELLEN G WHITE??

BobRyan

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With all this said I will add my usual:
As she herself said she was not infallible, she is not our "Pope",

As with all prophets the value of their work is not "that they are infallible".

We do not read Paul or Peter or James or Luke "because they are infallible" but because "God is infallible" and the Word HE gives is infallible. It does not make the writer/speaker/prophet infallible - the WORD is in fallible.
 
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CaptainToad

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The problem is in the Word of Egw. The question is about its truthfullness. Anyone can claim to be a prophet and a messenger of God. So it is not surprising that her words are being scrutinized. Its for everyone to decide if they want to take the word of a woman over the Word of God. Always remember, we dont need a flashlight to see the sun :)
 
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mmksparbud

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The problem is in the Word of Egw. The question is about its truthfullness. Anyone can claim to be a prophet and a messenger of God. So it is not surprising that her words are being scrutinized. Its for everyone to decide if they want to take the word of a woman over the Word of God. Always remember, we dont need a flashlight to see the sun :)



I will refer you to post #57---
 
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BobRyan

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The problem is in the Word of Egw. The question is about its truthfullness. Anyone can claim to be a prophet and a messenger of God. So it is not surprising that her words are being scrutinized. Its for everyone to decide if they want to take the word of a woman over the Word of God. Always remember, we dont need a flashlight to see the sun :)

Agreed - the Bible does not say "avoid God's prophets at all costs" but it does say "test the prophets to see IF" they are true or false.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Dr Derek Prince wrote a pamphlet back in the 1970s on "How to Judge Prophecy." It outlines the scriptural basis for judging.

http://www.amazon.com/How-judge-prophecy-Derek-Prince/dp/B0006XKDU8

Here is an outline someone made from that pamphlet:

Nine Steps in Judging Prophecy From “How to Judge Prophecy” by Derek Prince

1) The end purpose of all true prophecy is to build up, to admonish and to encourage the people of God
1 Corinthians 14:3, 2 Corinthians 10:8, 13:10 - authority is given to build up, not tear down.

a) Edification - to build up
b) Exhortation - admonition, stirs up
c) Comfort - encouragement, lifts up

2) All true prophecy always agrees with the letter and the Spirit of scripture.
2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.”

3) All true prophecy centers in Jesus Christ it, exalts and glorifies Him alone.

a) John 16:13-14 “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.”
b) Revelation 19:10 “At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

4) True prophecy produces fruit in character and conduct that agrees with the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

a) Matthew 7:15-16 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but
b) inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick
c) grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles?”
d) Romans 14:17 “The kingdom of God is.... righteousness, peace and joy int eh Holy Spirit.”
i) Read the following scriptures: Ephesians 5:9; Galatians 5:22-23

5) If a prophetic revelation contains predications concerning the future, are these prediction

a) fulfilled? If not ,the revelation does not come from the Holy Spirit Deuteronomy
b) 18:20-22 OT prophets were stoned to death if the prophecy did not come to pass.


6) Even correct predictions are not proof, if the prophecy draws others away from obedience. Read Deuteronomy 13:1-5; Acts 8:9-11, 16:16-18

7) True prophecy given by the Holy Spirit produces liberty not bondage.

a) Romans 8:15 warns against the “spirit of bondage”
b) 1Corinthians 14:33 God is not the author of confusion
c) 2 Timothy 1:7 God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, of love and of sound mind.
d) Be discerning about “directive” prophecy of spiritual dictators: Matthew 23:8 “But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.”

8) True prophecy given by the Holy Spirit produces life, not death.
2 Corinthians 3:6 “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the
letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

9) True prophecy is attested by the Holy Spirit within each believer who hears it
1 John 2:27 “..The anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need
anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing
is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.”

That is a great list.

However one must remember that Jonah was a true prophet even though the predicted calamity did not happen to Ninevah - since God has declared the prophecy related to blessing or cursing is conditional.


Jonah's message to Nineveh -- conditional only because that is the case with all prophecy for blessing or for cursing.

Here is his message -

Jonah 3
Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and preach to it the message that I tell you.” 3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent. 4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!” 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes.


====================

The Bible reason that this is not a failed prophecy --

Jer 18
7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.
9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.”’
 
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BobRyan

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And how do you know that Ellen White was correct? The Bible warns of false prophets.

That is true.

One has to look at what she said - that was claimed as a message from God - and test it against the Bible. God is never in doctrinal error. A person can be in error but if they claim that the error they hold to - came from God - then they are a false prophet.
 
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BobRyan

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Some of the links changed because the thread was cleaned up and they changed their position in the thread - (I think) so here is the updated post

QUOTE="BobRyan, Those who don't like the messages God gave his prophets all through history - or that don't like the messages He gave to one in the 19th and 20th century -- should take a few minutes to read at least a little to see that message first.

The Bible says not to reject God's prophets.
========================

Some very quick and short examples of inspired writing in harmony with the 1Cor 12 and 1cor 14:1 Bible doctrine on inspiration.

1. Christ's crucifixion - Apr 3, 2015 #1
2. Christ in Gethsemane - Mar 31, 2015 #1
3. The Resurrection of Christ - Apr 1, 2015 #1
4. Events at the Birth of Christ - Thursday at 12:58 PM #1
5. Events at the Birth of Christ - Thursday at 12:58 PM #1
6. Compare different examples on the life of Christ - the Pope, and also "Desire of Ages" Thursday at 12:43 PM #130


End Time events – Last things:
1. Eye witness account of the still-future second coming event. Friday at 9:40 PM#73
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc40.html
2. What about infants – at the resurrection? 2 minutes ago#13
3. Lake of Fire events
Mar 6, 2016 #1558
Mar 6, 2016 #1559
Mar 6, 2016 #1560


ORIGINS
1. The Creation , Adam and Eve in Eden- 23 minutes ago #1404
2. Satan and his angel after their fall 20 minutes ago #1405
3. Demons plot the fall of man 19 minutes ago #1407
4. Temptation and fall 15 minutes ago #1408
5. Eve becomes Tempter 14 minutes ago #1409
6. Adam is shown Gospel future 7 minutes ago #1410



THE FLOOD
1. Warning mankind and Building the ark 3 minutes ago #1412
2. The flood – the Storm Breaks - 4 minutes ago #1413[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
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BobRyan

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Ellen White is a prophet that lived in the 1800's who is the most translated female non-fiction author in the history of literature, as well as the most translated American non-fiction author of either gender.

She predicted a number of events - but primarily wrote by way of correction to the church.

She had visions on health - resulting in health principles and sanitariums - which is still highly valued today and the 2nd largest private Christian health system in the world.

She wrote on principles of education - resulting in the second largest Christian educational system in the world.

She was shown the end of the world - the millennium and the lake of fire, the new earth ... a great many details about the future as well as many details in life of Christ, the war in heaven, Angels, the conflict between Christ and Satan ...


She was a strong believer in the Protestant principle of "sola scriptura testing" of all doctrine and tradition.

The Bible says not to reject God's prophets.

  • Adventists do not regard her as a saint, nor do they view her writings as an addition to the Bible. Her prophetic claims are tested and proven by the Bible.
  • Her total literary output is approximately 100,000 pages. More than 100 books have been published from her writings.
  • She wrote books on numerous topics, including spirituality, parenting, social issues, health, and financial counsel. All of her works point the reader to God and the Bible.
  • Her most translated book, Steps to Christ, a how-to guide on being a Christian, has been translated into more than 165 languages.
  • Smithsonian Magazine named her one of the 100 Most Significant American authors of All Time. (2014)
========================

Some very quick and short examples of inspired writing in harmony with the 1Cor 12 and 1cor 14:1 Bible doctrine on inspiration.

Here is a short list of positive contributions to our understanding of key events in the life of Christ -- posted on the GT discussion area not long ago -
Dec 27, 2015 #8

1. Christ's crucifixion - Apr 3, 2015 #1
2. Christ in Gethsemane - Mar 31, 2015 #1
3. The Resurrection of Christ - Apr 1, 2015 #1
4. Events at the Birth of Christ - Thursday at 12:58 PM #1
5. Events at the Birth of Christ - Thursday at 12:58 PM #1
6. Compare different examples on the life of Christ - the Pope, and also "Desire of Ages" Thursday at 12:43 PM #130


End Time events – Last things:
1. Eye witness account of the still-future second coming event. Friday at 9:40 PM#73
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc40.html
2. What about infants – at the resurrection? 2 minutes ago#13
3. Lake of Fire events
Mar 6, 2016 #1558
Mar 6, 2016 #1559
Mar 6, 2016 #1560


ORIGINS
1. The Creation , Adam and Eve in Eden- 23 minutes ago #1404
2. Satan and his angel after their fall 20 minutes ago #1405
3. Demons plot the fall of man 19 minutes ago #1407
4. Temptation and fall 15 minutes ago #1408
5. Eve becomes Tempter 14 minutes ago #1409
6. Adam is shown Gospel future 7 minutes ago #1410



THE FLOOD
1. Warning mankind and Building the ark 3 minutes ago #1412
2. The flood – the Storm Breaks - 4 minutes ago #1413
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Agreed - the Bible does not say "avoid God's prophets at all costs" but it does say "test the prophets to see IF" they are true or false.
Yes, same with all the 'teachers' the last ten years/ 100 years/ longer. Test everything - most don't pass.

Ellen passed the tests as far as I know.
Each message is tested, for everyone - not just one.

I think mis-translation of her ideas/ messages might not be what she said to start with - in the cases where someone just wants to bring her down.

I think also she said she did not want people to put her on a pedestal - but just like evil men did with the dreaming woman in 1832, men (perhaps both good and bad) afterwards made more to-do out of messages or ideas than YHWH meant.
 
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Dave-W

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Agreed - the Bible does not say "avoid God's prophets at all costs" but it does say "test the prophets to see IF" they are true or false.
Allow me to add the proper tests:


Nine Steps in Judging Prophecy
From the booklet “How to Judge Prophecy” by Derek Prince © 1971

1) The end purpose of all true prophecy is to build up, to admonish and to encourage the people of God
1 Corinthians 14:3, 2 Corinthians 10:8, 13:10 - authority is given to build up, not tear down.
a) Edification - to build up
b) Exhortation - admonition, stirs up
c) Comfort - encouragement, lifts up​

2) All true prophecy always agrees with the letter and the Spirit of scripture.
2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.”

3) All true prophecy centers in Jesus Christ it, exalts and glorifies Him alone.
a) John 16:13-14 “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.”
b) Revelation 19:10 “At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”​


4) True prophecy produces fruit in character and conduct that agrees with the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
a) Matthew 7:15-16 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but
b) inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick
c) grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles?”
d) Romans 14:17 “The kingdom of God is.... righteousness, peace and joy int eh Holy Spirit.”
i) Read the following scriptures: Ephesians 5:9; Galatians 5:22-23​

5) If a prophetic revelation contains predictions concerning the future, are these prediction
a) fulfilled? If not ,the revelation does not come from the Holy Spirit Deuteronomy 18:20-22
b) OT prophets were stoned to death if the prophecy did not come to pass.​

6) Even correct predictions are not proof, if the prophecy draws others away from obedience. Read Deuteronomy 13:1-5; Acts 8:9-11, 16:16-18

7) True prophecy given by the Holy Spirit produces liberty not bondage.
a) Romans 8:15 warns against the “spirit of bondage”
b) 1Corinthians 14:33 God is not the author of confusion
c) 2 Timothy 1:7 God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, of love and of sound mind.
d) Be discerning about “directive” prophecy of spiritual dictators: Matthew 23:8 “But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.”​

8) True prophecy given by the Holy Spirit produces life, not death.
2 Corinthians 3:6 “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

9) True prophecy is attested by the Holy Spirit within each believer who hears it
1 John 2:27 “..The anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.”
 
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BobRyan

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I like that list because at the heart of each statement is truth - but some of those statements are very subjective. -- in any case Like that list and will be adding it to my files.

For example how would Jeremiah or Isaiah have been "received" if they were judged on whether they had popular approval or popular affirmation that indeed they were of God. Same is true of Christ - at his trial he was getting a lot of rejection.

Now you could say "yes but no matter that he was not popular the people were internally being convicted and regardless of what they said - they knew in their heart of heart that Christ was the Messiah" --

But the same is true about atheists and being convicted that there is a God and a day of judgment as Romans 1 says. However you could never have a rule that says -- if all atheists agree there is a God - then there is a God.

So then the more objective the list of statements the easier it is for everyone to see and agree on true vs false prophet.

1. Isaiah 8:20 "To the LAW and to the testimony - if they do not agree with this Word - they have no light".
2. 1 John 4 - "every spirit that does not confess that Christ is come in the flesh is not of God.
3. Mark 7 - "by their fruits you shall know them".
4. As you point out - Even correct predictions are not proof, if the prophecy draws others away from obedience. Read Deuteronomy 13:1-5; Acts 8:9-11, 16:16-18
5. Even correct predictions are not proof, if the prophecy draws others away from obedience. Read Deuteronomy 13:1-5; Acts 8:9-11, 16:16-18
--- which is not to say that Jonah was a false prophet because as
6. Jeremiah 14:13-16 if God speaks warning and judgment - but the prophet contradicts that Word and preaches peace-and-safety they are a false prophet.
7. Jeremiah 18:5-11 Some prophecies of both blessing and doom - are conditional


Other lists I have seen go something like this -

  • A true prophet’s predictions will “come to pass” (Jeremiah 28:9)
  • He will glorify God rather than himself (John 16:13)
  • He does not give his own private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20, 21)
  • He points out sin (Micah 3:5-8)
  • He warns of coming judgment (Isaiah 24:20, 21)
  • He edifies the church (1 Corinthians 14:3, 4)
  • His message harmonizes with the Bible (Isaiah 8:20)
  • He teaches that Jesus came in the flesh (1 John 4:1-3)
  • He has a Christian character (Matthew 7:16-20).
  • He is obedient to the will of God (Deuteronomy 18:18).
 
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BobRyan

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Since the origins links seem to have been re-aligned due to moderator edits of the posts in the thread that contains those quotes --

Fixed links:

ORIGINS

1. Creation of mankind -- Feb 18, 2016 #1390
2. Satan and his angels after the war in have – before tempting mankind. Feb 18, 2016 #1391
3. Satan and his angels plot the fall of mankind - Feb 18, 2016 #1393
4. the fall of mankind Feb 18, 2016 #1394
5. Eve becomes tempter - Feb 18, 2016 #1395
6. Adam is shown the Gospel Feb 18, 2016 #1396




THE FLOOD

1. Warning mankind and Building the ark Feb 18, 2016 #1398
2. The flood – the Storm Breaks - Feb 18, 2016 #1399
 
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