Why did the early church believe that the time of the return was soon?

parousia70 said:

So, You would then agree that Jesus is using "near" in the Human Understanding of the term in Matt 24:33?

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You'd have to ask Him that. I can't speak for Him.

/

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tickingclocker said:

You'd have to ask Him that. I can't speak for Him.

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How do you personally determine anything the Bible says then?

John
14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

tickingclocker said:

You'd have to ask Him that. I can't speak for Him.

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And I find this interesting, for you yourself claimed that "all these things" could not have happened in the 1st century, Citing Matt 24:33 as proof - yet you also claim that "Near" means thousands of years, cancelling out your claim that Matt 24:33 proves they didnt happen then...

You are all over the map, so I guess I can understand your confusion, since you now admit you have no idea what Jesus meant in Matt 24:33...

2 Peter
3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

tickingclocker said:

Imminent means "at any time". (A birth is "imminent", as in it can happen at any time. Doesn't have to mean the baby will be full term or live after being born.) As we have all seen within the past few years many things can happen suddenly, without warning. This is why Jesus warned that "as in the days of Noah, people will be marrying, etc.", carrying on as if life will never change for them, or that there is no God who is working out HIS glorious Plan. Believers know God is working out His Plan, and we expect Jesus to return. The 'when' is immaterial to the believer. He will return when God wills. That's enough.

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The "middle of the week" was 1,260 days because that was the number of years the old Israel existed for, the number of years the "old covenant" existed for until the AOD, the middle of the week.

It is this that determines the "Olivet discourse's" and the book of Revelation's interpretation.

tickingclocker said:

Nobody truly knows the actual... "'begin'... when these things start coming to pass...'"

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So what are the scriptures referring to when they speak of "the time of 'Jacob's' trouble? What are they speaking of when they refer to "the beginning of the birth pains"?

And what about the 3 gospels concerning the temple and city's final desolation, aren't they the signs given for the end times?

tickingclocker said:

As one person once told me in a bible study, all large earthquakes have the same results. Death and destruction on a grand scale. In other words, who's to know which are part of the 'end times earthquakes' in Matt. 24:7, and which are precursors to them? (Someone else's response to that was, aren't they all precursors to the end times earthquakes? ) History is full of destructive earthquakes. What makes these so different?

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Power to the people!

Luke17:37 said:

No, it has nothing to do with whether I prefer or not. Who would prefer the Tribulation? I don't believe in the imminence of the gathering because there are things that must happen first. The idea of imminence tickles the ears but the Bible teaches the opposite.

Matthew 24:33
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

We have not seen all these things (Matthew 24:4-28), and until we do, it's not imminent.

The illustration of the two servants (Matthew 24), the parable of ten virgins (Matthew 25), and the parable of the talents (Matthew 25) show us that it's not enough to be Jesus' servant--we must remain His servant, keeping close watch over our lives and doctrine.

You are using Matthew 25:13 out of the context of the parable. What that is really saying is that we must be wise, not foolish, or His return will show us cut off. The way I understand it is that the foolish counted on the bridegroom coming by a certain time; if they hadn't, they would have brought extra oil to last through the night. I think this action of bringing not enough oil to last all night is due to a fatal assumption of an "early" return. Note that when the door closes to the wedding feast, it's shut for good, just like after God shut the door of the ark and then no one else could enter. There are no second chances. The people of the earth outside the ark only faced death.

Just because we don't know the exact day, doesn't mean it could be any day. Jesus gave us a lot of signs (Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13) to observe first, in addition to other instruction through other books in the Bible, including Revelation. For example, in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 we learn that the day of Jesus' coming and of our gathering together to Him until after the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin, who wants to be worshipped as God (compare to Revelation 13, the beast of the sea).

Hebrews 10:24-25 and 1 Thessalonians 5:4-9 tell us that Christians with their eyes open (e.g., like the faithful servant, wise virgin, the person with five or two talents that gains more) will recognize that His return is near and they won't be caught off guard the way the others will (e.g., the wicked and the Christians who fall away for various reasons such as hypocrisy, apostasy, the refusal to do works of obedience to bear fruit).

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All these verses have been fulfilled in the 1st century because there is no Israel but the Church - your stumbling block, the stone cut out of the mountain with no hands, the nail on which hangs all understanding.

There is but one covenant, not two (Heb 8:7-13).

Brian45 said:

Two possibilities could be because Jesus said "this generation will not pass away until"........ and they simply believed him.
Another could be because he also said "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die".
I also believe that Peters scoffers were not meant for today but rather they were scoffing at Peters teachings that they were living in the last days. They were looking for change , probably remembering what Jesus said about the seas and the waves roaring and mens hearts failing them from the fear of what is coming upon the earth , they just weren't seeing anything like that.

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Yep.

Even while Christ was here it seemed everyone had problems reconciling Christ''s time line with their own human time lines. Peter himself wanted Christ to stay with them, even though he knew Christ had to die to fulfil prophecy.

Likewise, when He said time is near, it is a consequence of Christ existing as human. In other words, the prophecies pointing to His advent have been fulfilled - thousands of years of prophecy - the rest is downtime after His resurrection victory.

People in generAL have a hard time understanding "time" because we are mortal. To us, time is a definition describing an evolution of events codefied. For spirits, "time" is irrelevant; only evolutions of events matter.

So, given that step 1-12 happened in God''s plans, steps 13-... are right around the corner. And, they depend on events that happen before. Time limits are irrelevant; this is why emphasis on descriptions of events in prophecy is key, not timelines.

For example, 1/3 of the entire world, and earth life must be destroyed before even Antichrist comes. There is no time limit on that quota. Once the quota is met, the next event happens and so on.

Signs and seasons determine things, not time. Time as mortals see it is completely VIRTUAL. It is made up for convenience.

Your are wise tattered .... you have figured out that the Lord's time is not our time .... He exists in eternity .... time passing to Him is "now" .... "before Abraham was, I am"

The key to understanding the fact of unfulfilled prophecy still to come is documented in scripture and few look it .... or many cases it is refuted outright

This is because their taught preconceptions have eliminated the Lord's nation of Israel from any future participation as an ethnic nation .... and replaced the nation with their own religious organizations and movements

These then proceed to make speculation and insert [force fit] historical events to their liking

The Lord has set a time frame with Israel as an ensign to the nations and it is the 70 weeks of years decreed .... this is an absolute time lapse that can be calculated [Isaiah 11; Daniel 9:24-27]

.... and His future intent is clear which includes His nation apart from the Gentiles

The 69 weeks consummated at the Lord's cutting off in the first century ..... and the balance of the 70th week is still pending as we speak .... this time frame will include the period of Jacob's trouble, same as the coming tribulation .... 2520 days .... 7 prophetic years of 360 days each

The scoffers telling that future prophecy has already been fulfilled have been around since the early "church" and are at large today

The Lord has not revealed the dating of the beginning of the 70th week and is waiting to execute the same .... His reason has been given

All of the prophets are silent regarding the variable time lapse between the 69th and the 70th .... there is nothing of events upon the earth for the last 2000 years in any of their visions

Many attempt to put things in this breach, but with no accurate reading

The beginning of the 70th week could happen before this day is over

Israel has returned to the land in sufficient numbers today and surrounded by the nation's virulent enemies just as the prophetic scriptures set the staging, and He is waiting for His decision to execute the coming 70th week and beyond exactly as foretold

tatteredsoul said:

Time limits are irrelevant; this is why emphasis on descriptions of events in prophecy is key, not timelines.

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Really?
So when God told Noah: "For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7)
Those time limits are irrelevant?

There are several things in this passage that should be noted. First, this is a prophecy of judgment. Secondly, God declared when the judgment, i.e., the rain, would start. Thirdly, He stated how long the rain would last. Fourthly, God spoke this to Noah, a man trapped in time. God was very specific as to when the rain would begin and to how long it would last. God told Noah that after seven days it would rain for forty days and nights. Now, our first question regarding this passage is not how we should interpret what God said, but how would Noah interpret what God said. Would he understand that God was outside time? That is to say, the references that God made concerning when the judgment would come were to be measured by how time relates to God? Applying the futurist’s interpretation of 2 Peter 3:8-9 to this passage, was God telling Noah that after 7,000 years it would begin to rain and once it started raining, it would continue for 40,000 years? Or should the plain, everyday definitions of the terms be understood? We find our answer in verse’s 10 and 12:

And it came about after the seven days, that the water of the flood came upon the earth. And the rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights.

Here, just a few short verses later, we have the fulfillment of that prophecy. This shows us that God meant exactly what He said to Noah. Seven days equaled seven days. Forty days and nights equaled forty days and nights.

Contrary to your opposite assertion, The timing of the prophecy is just as important as the events of the prophecy. Think about that for a moment. What purpose would it serve if God gave a specific prophecy of judgment to a wicked nation, telling them that He would fulfill it within a specific time frame, and warned those people of the coming judgment, if the time passages (and the whole prophecy itself for that matter) were actually for some other generation of people? What purpose would the warnings serve the nation to whom it was originally given? To be quite honest, it wouldn'’t serve any purpose at all. How would that nation interpret the character and nature of God? That is to say, how would those people view God if He swore that He would judge them at a certain time, and then He didn'’t follow through with His judgment? What would they think of God? That He can’t be trusted? That He speaks empty words and threats? That He lied?

Let’s look at a passage that has tremendous relevance to the subject at hand. In Ezekiel 12:21-28, it is written:

Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, what is this proverb you people have concerning the land of Israel, saying, ‘The days are long and every vision fails?’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "I will make this proverb cease so that they will no longer use it as a proverb in Israel." But tell them, "The days a draw near as well as the fulfillment of every vision. For there will no longer be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I the Lord shall speak, and whatever word I speak will be performed. It will no longer be delayed, for in you days, O rebellious house, I shall speak the word and perform it," declares the Lord God.’ " Furthermore, the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, behold, the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies of times far off.’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed," ’ " declares the Lord God.

In this passage the nation of Israel, like you tatteredsoul, said that the time statements of God’s word were irrelevant. This is exactly what you are claiming. You say, just like Israel said, "Those passages were not for the original audience but were ‘for many years from now’ and for ‘times far off.’ " But notice what God thinks about that kind of hermeneutic. God said, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed." He stated that He would say the word and He would perform it. Again, notice the implication of that statement. God Himself fulfills His word. When we try and mis-use 2 Peter 3:8-9 as a formula to interpret prophetic time, we are saying that God will not fulfill His word! So the real issue here is not just differences of interpretation concerning eschatology, but the nature and character of God.

If you are correct in your opinion about the irrelevancy of prophetic time limits, then we might as well be atheists because God Himself cannot even be trusted, and then we are lost.

Why? Because, if God is dishonest concerning when He would fulfill His word, how do we know He was honest concerning the doctrines of Grace? Or anything else for that matter? It’s simple. We don’t. So, again, this is much more than just a difference of interpretation. Our salvation depends on God keeping every aspect of His word. Including when He was to fulfill it.

Achilles6129 said:

OK - so what's everyone's take on the passages I quoted in my OP?

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Could be maybe we are waiting for you to tell us whatagwan.

Wah gwaan Achilles , what is going on.

What do you think it ALL means.

Achilles6129 said:

"29 And I say this, brothers and sisters: The time is short. So then those who have wives should be as those who have none, 30 those with tears like those not weeping, those who rejoice like those not rejoicing, those who buy like those without possessions, 31 those who use the world as though they were not using it to the full. For the present shape of this world is passing away." 1 Cor. 7:29-31 (NET)

"7 So be patient, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s return. Think of how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the ground and is patient for it until it receives the early and late rains. 8 You also be patient and strengthen your hearts, for the Lord’s return is near. 9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be judged. See, the judge stands before the gates! Jas. 5:7-9 (NET)

"20 The one who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon!” Amen! Come, Lord Jesus! 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all." Rev. 22:20-21 (NET)

As a matter of fact, some members of the early church apparently believed that the day of the Lord was already here:

"Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here." 2 Thess. 2:1-2 (NET)

"18 They have strayed from the truth by saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are undermining some people’s faith." 2 Tim. 2:18 (NET)

So, why did the early church writers believe that the time of the return was something that was going to happen soon?

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The answer must be varied based on context or if it were the apostles speaking or if it were Jesus speaking. What I was saying in post #32, ( http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-return-was-soon.7956935/page-2#post-69893907 ) goes for the disciples. With the exception of John late in his life, it simply was not for them to know the times and seasons set in place by the Father. Jesus knew about all of the prophetic time periods that we can now find in the Book of Daniel. The disciples did not. Daniel was still sealed in the 1st century, it was not for them to know.

Revelation 3:11
"I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown.

Revelation 22:7
“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed are those who obey the words of prophecy written in this book

Revelation 22:12
“Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds.

Revelation 22:20
He who is the faithful witness to all these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon!”
Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!

These verses spoken by Jesus in Revelation all contain the same phrase:
ἔρχομαι ταχύ

Strong's Concordance definition of ταχύ:

lightly, quickly.
Neuter singular of tachus (as adverb); shortly, i.e. Without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily -- lightly, quickly.
see GREEK tachus

Some claim the proper usage would rather be suddenly. This would be in line with the following verses:

Others say "ταχύ" comes also from the Greek "tachus" from where we get the word "tachometer" so might also at times have to do with the actual speed at which Jesus travels at during His second coming and not a duration of time. Like fast as lightning.


In Revelation Jesus said: "I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds.

Notice He is BRINGING His reward with Him to repay ALL people according to their deeds.

If ALL means ALL then this can't be talking about the 1st century because ALL people hadn't been born yet. It doesn't say He's bringing His reward to some or to many or to just the people living in the seven churches in 95AD. "ALL" the people aren't going to finish being born until the end of the world. So by context alone, Rev. 22 has got to mean something other than time.

In this case I think ταχύ means suddenly. Like: "Behold, I am coming suddenly. Or: "Behold, I am coming without warning. And I'm sorry to say this but I'm afraid that we are not going to see it coming. It's going to come as a complete surprise. Because so many have this big detailed Hal Lindsey style schematic of how it HAS to be prior to the parousia that they're going to be blindsided by the greatest event in the history of mankind.

All because some politician in a polyester suit didn't go into a rebuilt temple and set up a statue of himself. Just like most didn't see the 1st coming until it was too late and right on top of them.

It's got to be why Jesus was always saying "watch", you "must watch always". Because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you DO NOT EXPECT HIM.

1. “All fruits ripe „
   
   English Translation: Everything is just great
   Definition Slang expression use to state that everything is great or all is well
   Example Sentences (Patois) Man1: “Bredrin, how yuh duh” Man2: “All fruits ripe”
   (English) Man1: “Friend, how are you doing” Man2: “Everything is just great”

Yes time is irrelevant. "Yom" can mean anything from an undisclosed period of time, an aeon, when the hot part of the day exists, sundown to sundown, etc. Humans codefy time into quantatative measurement. But it is meaningless in reality. God, however, isn't mentally challenged; He is capable of understanding how we rationalize time, and converse and communicate with us based on our limited understanding and perception of real "time" - which is a qualitative evolution of events.


For example, the first day in Genesis 1 is not 24 hours. It is not sundown to sundown. It is not the hot part of the day. There was no sun made then, no moon, no stars - just the earth, light and darkness evolving. The evolution of earth becoming void/corrupt, and the separation of light from darkness was the evolution of events that made the first day.

That is all that matters - evolution of events. If you study chemical kinetics, you will see no matter how fast a step is in a reaction, the happening of that step is determined by the rate of reaction of the preceding step. In other words, step 2 can't happen until step 1 happens. Evolution of events. Doesn't this sound familiar?

Before Christ comes back, people must be martyred in His name. There is no time frame/limit/quantity given.

Before Christ comes back, the genetic manipulation of living creatures must occur in as massive amounts and frequency as in the days of Noah.

Before Christ comes, antichrist must come to impersonate Him.

Before Christ comes, a world army will assemble to try and fight Christ and His saints.

Before any of the law is changed, the heavens and earth must cease.


None of these things have quantitative congruences attached to them because quantitative time is an illusion. It doesn't matter if it was in 70AD, or 2070AD, if the preceding EVENTS do not occur, the next ones cannot. The time, as it were, doesn't matter.

In physics, the definition of a second is simply 9,000,000,000 hyper fine transitions in the Cesium-133 atom. That is it - a second is simply an evolution of events quantized and codified into an understandable object.

Time does not exist in the way humans think of it, which is why prophecy is often faced with obsessive attention that focuses on the absoute wrong details. You need to look at events, not that, "it's been 2000+ years... where is Christ?"

It should be obvious that the Lord has not yet intervened as He has described His intervention

There is no historical record of the full and complete details He has given on the matter

So is He lying about it? ..... hardly

If one believe this then His witness is bogus and you better find another God

What men have done is to discount His promise and instead have created their own folly for self gain .... the devil likes to suggest things to a man that an upend him

The Lord will intervene when He is ready .... no doubt .... hence He has said "you must be ready" for a time that He has not revealed

And when He does all of it will come without warning, and faster than a man can blink .... believe this and do not second guess His position on the matter

Scoffing at this truth is a dangerous game to play, especially when He holds all of the cards .... He is the Lord and Master of His creation

We are mere men who must seek a connection with Him and take Him at His word .... it does not work any other way

Dave Watchman said:

Could be maybe we are waiting for you to tell us whatagwan.

Wah gwaan Achilles , what is going on.

What do you think it ALL means.



The answer must be varied based on context or if it were the apostles speaking or if it were Jesus speaking. What I was saying in post #32, ( http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-return-was-soon.7956935/page-2#post-69893907 ) goes for the disciples. With the exception of John late in his life, it simply was not for them to know the times and seasons set in place by the Father. Jesus knew about all of the prophetic time periods that we can now find in the Book of Daniel. The disciples did not. Daniel was still sealed in the 1st century, it was not for them to know.

Revelation 3:11
"I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take away your crown.

Revelation 22:7
“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed are those who obey the words of prophecy written in this book

Revelation 22:12
“Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds.

Revelation 22:20
He who is the faithful witness to all these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon!”
Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!

These verses spoken by Jesus in Revelation all contain the same phrase:
ἔρχομαι ταχύ

Strong's Concordance definition of ταχύ:

lightly, quickly.
Neuter singular of tachus (as adverb); shortly, i.e. Without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily -- lightly, quickly.
see GREEK tachus

Some claim the proper usage would rather be suddenly. This would be in line with the following verses:

"Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

"For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. ​

"For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
​

Others say "ταχύ" comes also from the Greek "tachus" from where we get the word "tachometer" so might also at times have to do with the actual speed at which Jesus travels at during His second coming and not a duration of time. Like fast as lightning.

"Behold, I am coming quickly.

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.​

In Revelation Jesus said: "I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds.

Notice He is BRINGING His reward with Him to repay ALL people according to their deeds.

If ALL means ALL then this can't be talking about the 1st century because ALL people hadn't been born yet. It doesn't say He's bringing His reward to some or to many or to just the people living in the seven churches in 95AD. "ALL" the people aren't going to finish being born until the end of the world. So by context alone, Rev. 22 has got to mean something other than time.

In this case I think ταχύ means suddenly. Like: "Behold, I am coming suddenly. Or: "Behold, I am coming without warning. And I'm sorry to say this but I'm afraid that we are not going to see it coming. It's going to come as a complete surprise. Because so many have this big detailed Hal Lindsey style schematic of how it HAS to be prior to the parousia that they're going to be blindsided by the greatest event in the history of mankind.

All because some politician in a polyester suit didn't go into a rebuilt temple and set up a statue of himself. Just like most didn't see the 1st coming until it was too late and right on top of them.

It's got to be why Jesus was always saying "watch", you "must watch always". Because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you DO NOT EXPECT HIM.

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.​

1. “All fruits ripe „
   
   English Translation: Everything is just great
   Definition Slang expression use to state that everything is great or all is well
   Example Sentences (Patois) Man1: “Bredrin, how yuh duh” Man2: “All fruits ripe”
   (English) Man1: “Friend, how are you doing” Man2: “Everything is just great”

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But abiding Christians are going to see the signs and recognize that His return is almost there (Hebrews 10:24-25, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-9). Only the wicked and those who don't endure in their faith will be surprised (see Matthew 24 and 25). Yet the warning is for us. That is why we can't rest on our laurels and become hypocrites, apostates or unprofitable servants. Even the sixth bowl believers (who are seeing the great army enter Israel to attack them) are told to watch:

Revelation 16:16
15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

We need to hear the Word and obey it, and keep believing and keep obeying.

"We need to hear the Word and obey it, and keep believing and keep obeying"


If a man does not do this .... he is a dead man walking around with no future beyond his short trouble filled life

Evidently, the first Christians wrongly believed that Jesus' resurrection appearances would culminate in His Second Coming. 3 Gospel texts illustrate why the early church believes Jesus predicted His Second Coming within their generation. In his book, "Why I Am Not a Christian," philosopher Betrand Russell identifies Matthew 10:23 as a key reason for his unbelief. As a teenager, I almost lost my faith over texts like these. In my seminary studies, I finally found interpretations of these verses that protects Jesus from error. How would you address this problem:

(1) "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Matthew 10:23)."

(2) "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom (Matthew 16:28)."

(3) "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory... Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place (Mark 13:28, 30)."

I will offer my interpretations after allowing you a chance to tackle this problem.

Ahh now things are beginning to get interesting!!......

parousia70 said:

How do you personally determine anything the Bible says then?

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Holy Spirit. Listen.