Teens and food

I think proper "etiquette" really is simply "Thank you for offering, but no thank you at this time" with a smile on your face. Rude behavior isn't not eating but rather saying something derogatory about the meal served or requesting that the host makes something else for them like the vegetarians that show up at a BBQ and are loudly offended that you don't have a veggie burger alternative for them. (I have no problem with the vegetarian who brings her own burgers and quietly requests the grillmaster also grill hers and keeps her mouth shut about it being grilled on the same grill with the hamburger fat and using the same spatula. )

blackribbon said:

Do you need more?

I can look up the scholarly research too...some are listed in the articles.

The basic gist of all these articles is to NOT control what your child eats but to allow them to have healthy options and learn to follow hungry cues. Definitely don't reward finishing your dinner with a dessert (sweets for overeating?). And recognized kids are still learning how to serve themselves portions that match their appetite so they will often put too much food on their plate meaning "clean your plate" forces them to overeat. Kids who have seriously restricted diets at home tend to overindulge when given the opportunity to eat these restricted foods and often have more difficulties with healthy eating as adults.

(What else has your wife's degree taught you?)

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No need for more. As I said, I'm familiar with the research because my wife and I discuss it. I read the monthly medical journals that she receives because I work with people on the exercise half of the equation and I believe in a holistic approach to fitness.

If you dig into the research, you will see a few trends - some of which you pointed out. First, do not reward a clean plate with empty calories, e.g. dessert. Second, portion size is important. Third, being overly controlling and not allowing children to develop their own cues often has a correlation with diabetes or obesity.

NONE of the research, demonstrates causation between having children eat what is on their plate and obesity or diabetes.

While there is a correlation (again, none of the studies you cited or that I have seen have demonstrated causation) between highly controlling parents - particularly where food is related - and obesity or Type 2 diabetes, it is where control is exerted past the time when the child should begin developing his or her own controls. This is a problem with control, not with cleaning one's plate. No control can be just as detrimental, leaving the child with no framework in which to make good food and eating decisions.

Given appropriate portion sizes, "clean your plate" absolutely does not force a child to overeat. Quite the opposite, it helps them understand appropriate portion sizes and, done right, how to make healthy choices. As you said, children rarely understand appropriate portion sizes themselves.

This subject is hardly as simply as the blog posts and articles that cited the research made it out to be.

Mudinyeri said:

No need for more. As I said, I'm familiar with the research because my wife and I discuss it. I read the monthly medical journals that she receives because I work with people on the exercise half of the equation and I believe in a holistic approach to fitness.

If you dig into the research, you will see a few trends - some of which you pointed out. First, do not reward a clean plate with empty calories, e.g. dessert. Second, portion size is important. Third, being overly controlling and not allowing children to develop their own cues often has a correlation with diabetes or obesity.

NONE of the research, demonstrates causation between having children eat what is on their plate and obesity or diabetes.

While there is a correlation (again, none of the studies you cited or that I have seen have demonstrated causation) between highly controlling parents - particularly where food is related - and obesity or Type 2 diabetes, it is where control is exerted past the time when the child should begin developing his or her own controls. This is a problem with control, not with cleaning one's plate. No control can be just as detrimental, leaving the child with no framework in which to make good food and eating decisions.

Given appropriate portion sizes, "clean your plate" absolutely does not force a child to overeat. Quite the opposite, it helps them understand appropriate portion sizes and, done right, how to make healthy choices. As you said, children rarely understand appropriate portion sizes themselves.

This subject is hardly as simply as the blog posts and articles that cited the research made it out to be.

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Correlation is a bigger deal that you are making it out to be....because it leads to better studies. Can you produce research to say that it doesn't cause obesity in later life or is the research still not there?

Most "clean plate club" parents aren't the most educated on good dietary health or portion control. I am constantly amazed by how much my friends can eat in a single sitting while wondering why their good options aren't controlling their weight.

Your original challenge was that there is "no evidence" that suggests a correlation. I think I showed this to be an incorrect statement. Now you want exact causation? Start a new thread and maybe I will be bored enough to do the research...but probably not since I already showed that there is evidence and continuing research enough to back that it very well can be a related. Do you or your wife really wait until there is always exact causation before implementing new research into your interaction with clients? As a nurse, I tend to start educating my patients when there is solid preliminary evidence leaning toward new practices so they don't continue down a rocky road that is detrimental to their health in the months and years it takes to complete the research and do follow up studies. I never fail to tell them it is preliminary research and my recommendations might change as more evidence comes out so stay educated.

blackribbon said:

Correlation is a bigger deal that you are making it out to be....because it leads to better studies. Can you produce research to say that it doesn't cause obesity in later life or is the research still not there?

Most "clean plate club" parents aren't the most educated on good dietary health or portion control. I am constantly amazed by how much my friends can eat in a single sitting while wondering why their good options aren't controlling their weight.

Your original challenge was that there is "no evidence" that suggests a correlation. I think I showed this to be an incorrect statement. Now you want exact causation? Start a new thread and maybe I will be bored enough to do the research...but probably not since I already showed that there is evidence and continuing research enough to back that it very well can be a related. Do you or your wife really wait until there is always exact causation before implementing new research into your interaction with clients? As a nurse, I tend to start educating my patients when there is solid preliminary evidence leaning toward new practices so they don't continue down a rocky road that is detrimental to their health in the months and years it takes to complete the research and do follow up studies. I never fail to tell them it is preliminary research and my recommendations might change as more evidence comes out so stay educated.

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I'm not sure you understand the difference between correlation and causation.

I said, "There is no evidence that "clean your plate" leads to obesity." "Leads to ..." equals causation.

Correlation is of interest but far too many people don't understand that correlation doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "leads to" and jump to conclusions not supported by evidence.

I'm also not sure you understand evidentiary proof because you've asked me to prove a negative. "Can you produce research to say that it doesn't cause obesity ...."

Both my wife an I avoid sweeping generalizations when working with clients. We're also both very cautious about research. Each individual is treated as ... an individual. My hope is that you do the same as a nurse.

No, I get the different between correlation and causation... and correlation still has significant statistical value because it shows how things are related. In this example, "clean your plate" club and obesity later in life are related to inability to stop eating when the body signals it is full. Correlation is also useful because it leads to more detailed research which may actually eventually prove causation. I kind of doubt that causation will be proven because not ALL kids who have been raised in a clean your plate club house will fight obesity but the correlation is high enough that it can be evidence that it makes a person "high risk" ... so in that way it does LEAD TO obesity in many individual. (and that is an accurate way to express the difference between causation and correlation in this example). And yes, in nursing (and medicine) we use correlation quite a bit... obesity and diabetes are correlated (not causation)...high cholesterol and heart disease are correlated (not causation)...high doses of tylenol and liver damaged are correlated (with a high level of causation too).... and the list goes on ...

Mudinyeri said:

I'm also not sure you understand evidentiary proof because you've asked me to prove a negative. "Can you produce research to say that it doesn't cause obesity ...."

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Actually, a lot of research proves that something isn't related by studying it and finding no statistical difference between the control and the study group. So since this has been studied, there are two potential outcomes...correlation and no significant statistical evidence of a correlation (or causation, depending on how the study is set up). I just read a study a few days ago that showed that there is not a statistical link between hyperallergic people and MS. So that is significant in showing no correlation. (Interesting enough, another study did show that high doses of a particular allergy medicine does show evidence of improving symptoms in MS patients so there has to be an different correlation than the allergen sensitivity status. The research is going to have to take a different route or re-exam the other study to see if there were faults in it.) So yes, lots of studies prove the negative even when they weren't trying to. That is why we use double blind studies.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Mudinyeri said:

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

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Very little research ever proves anything absolutely...especially when it involves a human body. And actually, evidence that shows no statistically relationship is not "absence of evidence" but rather "evidence of absence".

blackribbon said:

Very little research ever proves anything absolutely...especially when it involves a human body.

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In this we can agree.

TheresaC. said:

Should teens eat everything parents cook even if they don't like it to respect them or should they choose freely if and what to eat?

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No. Why would anyone expect a teen to eat everything their parents cook? My parents don't expect that at all. I like most of the stuff they make so I eat it but if I didn't want it I wouldn't have to. My sister is MUCH pickier than I am & that's ok.

I guess I'm mean mom - I make mine eat their greens (until they move out of the house), but I do try to find the greens they like!

The message I hope they are receiving isn't that I disrespect them, but that it's very important to properly nourish their bodies. We are an extremely nutrition-deprived society imho.

I didn't think the OP was talking about "clean your plate" ?? That could be another thread

TheresaC. said:

Should teens eat everything parents cook even if they don't like it to respect them or should they choose freely if and what to eat?

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If people put big hunks of onion in a casserole (one of MY mother's favorite cooking tools), to this day, I will have to gag it down. I can eat it when I visit...and my teens (now both adults) can too...but I think I disrespects a family member if I know they don't like something and cook it for a family meal anyway and expect them to eat it. I might request they taste one bite though. I do recognize that my kids have the right to their own tastes too.

MY mother is still dumbfounded when I don't eat huge servings of certain dishes and is still trying to convince me that I DO like onions since she does. I think that 50 years of life kind of shows it is a food I am really not likely to start liking. I use onion powder or sauted onions or even skip that ingredient in a recipe that I am cooking...chopped onions never make it into anything I cook. I put them as a side condiment if other family members want them.

I would think the opposite side of this is that it is a parent's responsibility to be a GOOD cook ... and that everything they cook should taste good. However, most of us are just decent cooks and cook less than perfect food at times. We live in a real world and I have a long list of recipes I have requested from my mother, my husband's mother, and a plenty long list of food that I'd NEVER ask the recipe for.

I don't think dinner time should be a time you suffer through when people force you to eat food you don't like.

blackribbon said:

If people put big hunks of onion in a casserole (one of MY mother's favorite cooking tools), to this day, I will have to gag it down. I can eat it when I visit...and my teens (now both adults) can too...but I think I disrespects a family member if I know they don't like something and cook it for a family meal anyway and expect them to eat it. I might request they taste one bite though. I do recognize that my kids have the right to their own tastes too.

MY mother is still dumbfounded when I don't eat huge servings of certain dishes and is still trying to convince me that I DO like onions since she does. I think that 50 years of life kind of shows it is a food I am really not likely to start liking. I use onion powder or sauted onions or even skip that ingredient in a recipe that I am cooking...chopped onions never make it into anything I cook. I put them as a side condiment if other family members want them.

I would think the opposite side of this is that it is a parent's responsibility to be a GOOD cook ... and that everything they cook should taste good. However, most of us are just decent cooks and cook less than perfect food at times. We live in a real world and I have a long list of recipes I have requested from my mother, my husband's mother, and a plenty long list of food that I'd NEVER ask the recipe for.

I don't think dinner time should be a time you suffer through when people force you to eat food you don't like.

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My sister has Asperger's & is really, really, really particular about her food. She cannot stand onions. I don't like them either. They make my stomach hurt. She doesn't ever eat stuff like casseroles bc there's food in there you can't see before you take a bite. If she orders a burger she always stresses no onions. My parents & pretty much everybody else is pretty understanding. She doesn't make a scene about it or anything. She just doesn't eat what she doesn't like. She still says thank you & is polite.