I know the sacraments give life but does that mean Protestants are less ?

Protestantism is so complex from being near to Orthodoxy among some churches to hardly being Christian in others. We have to take care when discerning formal theology & also realize that the Holy Spirit is working among other Christians who call upon the Lord ( Romans 10:9-13 ).

BTW, the website you have linked above is currently down.

Speaking as non Orthodox, the answer to this is a great mystery, known only to the Lord.

We rely on his mercy, love and compassion every bit as much as the most devout and Godly Orthodox ever born. Our theology may well fail, but his mercy will not.

Well, Mike, I can't say that I'm completely clear on what you're trying to say, but if you are asking whether or not we can abandon Orthodoxy because the Lord works among Protestants, too, I don't see how the answer can be anything but no. Recall the parable of the talents. Each were given a different amount and then judged based on what they had done with them. We will be judged according to Orthodox standards according to what we have been given, while perhaps those who are not Orthodox will be judged according to other standards, but only as they have received less. That's not to say that they are less, as people or as believers (certainly not), but only that they are working within whatever religious system they believe in which does not contain the fullness of truth as only Orthodox Christianity does.

And if that makes you wonder "Why be Orthodox, then, if other people can be not-Orthodox and receive the same reward?", then I would caution a few things:

(1) We're not Orthodox because it gets us rewards that are 'more' or 'better' than what other people receive. Not only is there no way to know such a thing in the first place (how can we know what others receive? We're not them), but it is terribly arrogant. It is not to the credit of any individual Orthodox believer that Orthodoxy is true and other forms of Christianity are at least partially false. It would be wrong to abuse proper ecclesiology and theology for the purposes of metaphorically beating others with it. Rather, we should encourage them in what they have correct (in keeping with Orthodoxy), while also maintaining firm correction or rebuke of those things that are incorrect, so as to make clear to all (most definitely including our own people who may have this very wishy-washy "it's all Christianity!" idea, which is popular in many places) what is compatible with the apostolic faith and what is not.

(2) While not condemning individual Protestants who are, just like us, trying to follow our Lord to the best of their ability, we not only can, we must have something to say about bodies or organizations which preach error. These are two different standards precisely because the errant individual may be mistaken without codifying their mistake into the entire reason for their church's existence, whereas looking across the spectrum of different churches we find various reasons for schisms which have hardened around some particular idea of their founders, and hence are less amenable to correction. So, yes, by all means, be open to any Protestant, but not on a doctrinal basis. This careful distinction between organizations and individuals as it applies to us is that we too (Orthodox individuals) may be wrong on some account, but our Church is not. The Orthodox Church has nothing to learn from the heterodox, and there is no reasonable sense by which we may compromise on any point with which they may disagree. Again, this is not because we as individuals are such great people (recall point #1), but because our Church is truly Catholic -- that is to say, complete, whole, lacking nothing. This is important to keep in mind when reading sayings of Jesus such as he who is not against us is for us, because it is absolutely in error to take this as sanction or endorsement of beliefs from outside of the Church. That is talking about people, not other churches as we have today (as obviously there were no other churches in Jesus' own time). Again, I may be misunderstanding what you are trying to say here, but it is important to keep straight the difference between saying "Yes, God may work through all people in a myriad of different places" and saying "Jesus said he who is not against us is for us, so I guess it's okay to be whatever". The first is a true statement, but the second is not.

(And just FYI: orthodoxinfo.com, while it may be good for a quick reference to certain historical writings posted there that are difficult to find elsewhere -- such as John of Damascus' critique of Islam -- is very much an anti-Oriental Orthodox website, and hence should be avoided if there is another source from which to make the same point.)

Catherineanne said:

Speaking as non Orthodox, the answer to this is a great mystery, known only to the Lord.

We rely on his mercy, love and compassion every bit as much as the most devout and Godly Orthodox ever born. Our theology may well fail, but his mercy will not.

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Our parish priest likes to paraphrase the Eastern Orthodox by saying, "We know what Jesus told us to do and where to find him, but we cannot say for sure what happens to those who prefer to meet him somewhere else".
I cringe though when I think of those who blatantly reject the sacraments and the church through which they are received. I say this as an Anglo-catholic not Orthodox.

QUOTE="mikeforjesus, post: 69800675, member: 91485"Protestants who have no respect for our holy things which are the sacraments and speak bad about the church may not be saved or less reward (or maybe not because division shouldn't stop people from accepting Christ if we atleast teach we don't know about the others and are united in the things we share even though we do not say for certain they are on the path of salvation)
since even if Jesus meant one can be saved outside the church when He said he who does not speak evil against Me is on our side
He perhaps didn't condemn him only because he did not oppose the preaching of Jesus so Protestants must not speak bad about the church and oppose its preaching since that is opposing not only the church but Jesus QUOTE
Good questions ? What does Jesus say ? (in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and Revelation; Jesus's Own Words - they are vital and life giving)

mikeforjesus said:

I cant say if those words about Jesus condemn Protestants or me. I say this because I fear deceiving people. Do Protestants enter through the door because they have Jesus or can we only enter through the door which is Jesus through accepting all His words ?

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Jesus was not sent to condemn church goers, no matter which church they are in, but to save them. That's part of (or the main) the dilemma you are posting about.

LadyAng said:

"We know what Jesus told us to do and where to find him, but we cannot say for sure what happens to those who prefer to meet him somewhere else".

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That's what probably EVERY GROUP on earth says who claims similar.
What does Jesus Himself in His Own Prayer say in John 17 ?
What does Jesus Say ?

I am not sure what is it tha

yeshuaslavejeff said:

QUOTE="mikeforjesus, post: 69800675, member: 91485"Protestants who have no respect for our holy things which are the sacraments and speak bad about the church may not be saved or less reward (or maybe not because division shouldn't stop people from accepting Christ if we atleast teach we don't know about the others and are united in the things we share even though we do not say for certain they are on the path of salvation)
since even if Jesus meant one can be saved outside the church when He said he who does not speak evil against Me is on our side
He perhaps didn't condemn him only because he did not oppose the preaching of Jesus so Protestants must not speak bad about the church and oppose its preaching since that is opposing not only the church but Jesus QUOTE
Good questions ? What does Jesus say ? (in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and Revelation; Jesus's Own Words - they are vital and life giving)

Jesus was not sent to condemn church goers, no matter which church they are in, but to save them. That's part of (or the main) the dilemma you are posting about.


That's what probably EVERY GROUP on earth says who claims similar.
What does Jesus Himself in His Own Prayer say in John 17 ?
What does Jesus Say ?

Click to expand...

What does Jesus say...about what? My apologies I cannot figure out why you are pointing me to John 17. Do you mind expanding on what seem to be a rhetoric question (that eludes me completely)?

LadyAng said:

I am not sure what is it that ...
What does Jesus say...about what? My apologies I cannot figure out why you are pointing me to John 17. Do you mind expanding on what seem to be a rhetoric question (that eludes me completely)?

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John 17 bypasses all religion.
That is, the Reality of Jesus Prayer for His Disciples and All who become Disciples after them.
Just like someone on a raft in the middle of the ocean, pregnant 9 months, and giving birth to a live healthy baby boy.
That live healthy baby boy is ALIVE, not dead,
even though there's a thousand miles of empty water(no other humans living besides his mother and whoever else may be on the raft(ark? ) ....

So also as Jesus said (no matter one's upbringing, culture, family, status in any way)
to be ALIVE a person must be born again.

Greetings, LadyAng, Yeshuaslavejeff, and any other new posters (I can't tell if Catherineanne or Lukaris have posted here before, but if you are also new, hello to both of you, too). Welcome to the Oriental Orthodox from of CAF!

Just a friendly reminder that this particular forum exists as a place for people to share and learn about the Oriental Orthodox Church and its constituent jurisdictions and their Orthodox faith, so all discussion must be within those parameters. It is not a place for people who are not within the Oriental Orthodox Church to discuss or debate points of doctrine, dogma, or Biblical interpretation in line with their own, non-OO traditions and viewpoints.

I would very much appreciate if all guests from outside of the Church would keep this in mind and not use this forum, which gets very little traffic as it is, as a place to argue non-OO viewpoints regarding who is in the Church and who is not, or anything else (e.g., the current discussion between Yeshuaslavejeff and LadyAng on LadyAng's use of the EO maxim describing their ecclesiological principles). There are forums on this website where you may discuss EO ecclesiology or Anabaptist Biblical interpretation, but this is not one of them.

mikeforjesus said:

Protestants who have no respect for our holy things which are the sacraments and speak bad about the church may not be saved or less reward

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The only sin Jesus does not forgive is hostility to God's Holy Spirit.
All other Sins are forgiven.

LadyAng said:

Our parish priest likes to paraphrase the Eastern Orthodox by saying, "We know what Jesus told us to do and where to find him, but we cannot say for sure what happens to those who prefer to meet him somewhere else".
I cringe though when I think of those who blatantly reject the sacraments and the church through which they are received. I say this as an Anglo-catholic not Orthodox.

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I agree. I also fear for those who reject the sacraments, but God's mercy is unfailing.

SkyWriting said:

The only sin Jesus does not forgive is hostility to God's Holy Spirit.
All other Sins are forgiven.

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I am not sure those are quite the words in Scripture, are they?

dzheremi said:

Greetings, LadyAng, Yeshuaslavejeff, and any other new posters (I can't tell if Catherineanne or Lukaris have posted here before, but if you are also new, hello to both of you, too). Welcome to the Oriental Orthodox from of CAF!

Just a friendly reminder that this particular forum exists as a place for people to share and learn about the Oriental Orthodox Church and its constituent jurisdictions and their Orthodox faith, so all discussion must be within those parameters. It is not a place for people who are not within the Oriental Orthodox Church to discuss or debate points of doctrine, dogma, or Biblical interpretation in line with their own, non-OO traditions and viewpoints.

I would very much appreciate if all guests from outside of the Church would keep this in mind and not use this forum, which gets very little traffic as it is, as a place to argue non-OO viewpoints regarding who is in the Church and who is not, or anything else (e.g., the current discussion between Yeshuaslavejeff and LadyAng on LadyAng's use of the EO maxim describing their ecclesiological principles). There are forums on this website where you may discuss EO ecclesiology or Anabaptist Biblical interpretation, but this is not one of them.

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Thanks for the clarification. In any Orthodox forum I generally will only post when I can agree with most of what is said. When I don't agree I will simply move on, but that is a very rare occurance, tbh.

In this case I posted because comments were made about 'protestants' and I wanted to make clear that not all protestants think the same way, or have the same attitude towards the sacraments. This is not to challenge the OOC position, but to clarify the Anglo Catholic one (inter alia) in relation to OOC sacraments; we all rely on God's mercy.

SkyWriting said:

The only sin Jesus does not forgive is hostility to God's Holy Spirit.
All other Sins are forgiven.

Click to expand...

Catherineanne said:

I am not sure those are quite the words in Scripture, are they?

Click to expand...

Catherineanne said:

I agree. I also fear for those who reject the sacraments, but God's mercy is unfailing.

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I can find the specifics:

28 Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter.
29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.”

Did I misspeak? I did. My two sentences were in the wrong order.

All other Sins are forgiven.
The only sin Jesus does not forgive is hostility to God's Holy Spirit.

SkyWriting said:

I can find the specifics:

28 Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.”

Did I misspeak?

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Yes, you said 'hostility' which is not the word used. Scripture says 'blaspheme against the Holy Spirit', but does NOT define what exactly that constitutes, and therefore we cannot know.

SkyWriting said:

The only sin Jesus does not forgive is hostility to God's Holy Spirit.
All other Sins are forgiven.

Click to expand...

Catherineanne said:

Yes, you said 'hostility' which is not the word used. Scripture says 'blaspheme against the Holy Spirit', but does NOT define what exactly that constitutes, and therefore we cannot know.

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"Scripture explains scripture" is the general rule.
Your stand is that God does not explain sin well enough
and is one of God's mysteries? You have accumulated
too many mysteries for me to attend your services.

Here are 14 uses of blaspheme.

10 And that is what I did in Jerusalem. With authority from the chief priests I put many of the saints in prison, and when they were condemned to death, I cast my vote against them. 11 I frequently had them punished in the synagogues and tried to make them blaspheme. In my raging fury against them, I even went to foreign cities to persecute them.

Catherineanne said:

Thanks for the clarification. In any Orthodox forum I generally will only post when I can agree with most of what is said. When I don't agree I will simply move on, but that is a very rare occurance, tbh.

In this case I posted because comments were made about 'protestants' and I wanted to make clear that not all protestants think the same way, or have the same attitude towards the sacraments. This is not to challenge the OOC position, but to clarify the Anglo Catholic one (inter alia) in relation to OOC sacraments; we all rely on God's mercy.

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Hi Catherineanne,

Thanks for clarifying. I don't have any problem with any non-OO posting their views on this forum for comparative or discussion purposes (I kind of doubt that any of us would, since there's less than half a dozen active OO posters on this entire website, at last count), I just don't want to see this thread or any other thread on this forum degenerate into arguments between non-OO about things that aren't related to the Church this board is actually here to discuss. These sorts of off-topic arguments also happen on the EO and RC forums, but those forums have enough activity where that's not the only thing that's happening at a given time, and when it does happen it's usually dealt with quickly by mods or ambassadors. We don't really have that luxury here.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your views on the OP. I appreciate where you are coming from.

sacraments did not die on the cross, jesus did.
jesus saves the sinner, not the sacraments.

QUOTE="mikeforjesus, post: 69800675, member: 91485"]I think Protestants can have the same reward as orthodox if they use the same effort as a good orthodox even if the same efforts leads to them bearing less fruit
They are not saved upon death but through punishment. I didn't like this view at first because I thought why be an orthodox Christian then and maybe make my family give up on Christianity. But if one shows their family they don't see them as less but lacking the gift of the sacraments they may accept your orthodoxy. Maybe orthodoxy is not for everyone in every state but they should wait for the best time. There will be a time to embrace the truth without offending family or feeling it is right to accept it if one earnestly seeks it
The fruit orthodox produce is to witness to there being no hell at all.

Protestants who have no respect for our holy things which are the sacraments and speak bad about the church may not be saved or less reward (or maybe not because division shouldn't stop people from accepting Christ if we atleast teach we don't know about the others and are united in the things we share even though we do not say for certain they are on the path of salvation)
since even if Jesus meant one can be saved outside the church when He said he who does not speak evil against Me is on our side
He perhaps didn't condemn him only because he did not oppose the preaching of Jesus so Protestants must not speak bad about the church and oppose its preaching since that is opposing not only the church but Jesus (since each denomination should accept others preaching so non believers feel encouraged to accept Jesus) since not everyone condemns Protestants but prays for them even when they die so it is not church teaching to condemn Protestants because our views vary
See the link below
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/metphil_heterodox.aspx

I don't know if my words here are incorruptible those who teach the truth are true shepherds the others are thiefs and robbers Jesus says. It refers to teachers who pretend to be shepherds. I cant say if those words about Jesus condemn Protestants or me. I say this because I fear deceiving people. Do Protestants enter through the door because they have Jesus or can we only enter through the door which is Jesus through accepting all His words ?

[/QUOTE]

dzheremi said:

Hi Catherineanne,

Thanks for clarifying. I don't have any problem with any non-OO posting their views on this forum for comparative or discussion purposes (I kind of doubt that any of us would, since there's less than half a dozen active OO posters on this entire website, at last count), I just don't want to see this thread or any other thread on this forum degenerate into arguments between non-OO about things that aren't related to the Church this board is actually here to discuss. These sorts of off-topic arguments also happen on the EO and RC forums, but those forums have enough activity where that's not the only thing that's happening at a given time, and when it does happen it's usually dealt with quickly by mods or ambassadors. We don't really have that luxury here.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your views on the OP. I appreciate where you are coming from.

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No problem. It is nice to get to know you all. We may not be able to share communion this side of eternity, but we can share coffee and cake (if the season allows!), and that is what matters.

Geralt said:

sacraments did not die on the cross, jesus did.
jesus saves the sinner, not the sacraments.

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I suspect you are not familiar with the term 'sacrament'. Would you like to start a thread to discuss the meaning?