2Thessalonians2:7 explained

Luke17:37 said:

"Most erroneous?"

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That's what i said.

Luke17:37 said:

Most dramatic

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Hardly dramatic...since it's a fact!

Luke17:37 said:

Antiochus Ephiphanes desecrated the temple long before Jesus preached. He obviously wasn't the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy... just an example.

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You really missed Daniel 11:29-35. This is factual history, and the reason the Jews celebrate Hanukkah. Try getting the understanding of the first AoD, committed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes:
http://www.chabad.org/holidays/chanukah/article_cdo/aid/102978/jewish/The-Story-of-Chanukah.htm

Luke17:37 said:

Rome destroyed the temple, not put something in it that caused desolation of the Holy Place.

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You simply don't understand scripture then. It is a FACT that only Levites were allowed access into the temple. The Romans were Gentiles...and when they were finally able to enter the temple they defiled it...especially when they entered the holy of holies, which only the high priest was to enter...and only once a year! You should know this from Leviticus. Here again is how it went according to Josephus:
http://www.templemount.org/destruct2.html

Luke17:37 said:

I doubt you and I will ever agree about anything eschatology wise except for maybe the bodily return of Jesus Christ (I believe you still think that's going to happen.)

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You're right...I believe Matthew 24 (for the most part), and much of Revelation is already fulfilled. We are in the thousand year reign of Christ right now. The only thing I look for is His glorious appearing. There will be no "pretrib rapture".

Luke17:37 said:

Because you believe that the abomination that causes desolation was Rome burning the temple, and those days were referred to as the great tribulation which the days are shortened lest no flesh survive. How does that work for A.D. 70? It says in verse 29 of Matthew 24 that immediately after the tribulation of those days the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and Jesus will appear and gather the elect. But it's been 1946 years...

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You did pay attention to the word "SIGN"? Therefore it's not Christ appearing Himself. It is an appearing of judgment upon Jerusalem. Haven't you read Matthew 23:37-39??? The "house" left desolate is the temple!

Matthew 25 gives you the rest of the story.

ebedmelech said:

That's what i said.

Hardly dramatic...since it's a fact!

You really missed Daniel 11:29-35. This is factual history, and the reason the Jews celebrate Hanukkah. Try getting the understanding of the first AoD, committed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes:
http://www.chabad.org/holidays/chanukah/article_cdo/aid/102978/jewish/The-Story-of-Chanukah.htm

You simply don't understand scripture then. It is a FACT that only Levites were allowed access into the temple. The Romans were Gentiles...and when they were finally able to enter the temple they defiled it...especially when they entered the holy of holies, which only the high priest was to enter...and only once a year! You should know this from Leviticus. Here again is how it went according to Josephus:
http://www.templemount.org/destruct2.html

You're right...I believe Matthew 24 (for the most part), and much of Revelation is already fulfilled. We are in the thousand year reign of Christ right now. The only thing I look for is His glorious appearing. There will be no "pretrib rapture".

You did pay attention to the word "SIGN"? Therefore it's not Christ appearing Himself. It is an appearing of judgment upon Jerusalem. Haven't you read Matthew 23:37-39??? The "house" left desolate is the temple!

Matthew 25 gives you the rest of the story.

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We're talking about two interpretations of prophecy. Basically, you are suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you on prophecy just doesn't know anything because your interpretations are facts. I'm sorry, but that's not the way it works.

Matthew 24:30
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This is about Jesus' bodily return, and it hasn't happened. This wasn't the first century.

Well, you say there is no pre-Tribulation rapture, and I agree with that, but it doesn't sound like you believe in a future Tribulation. So in effect, doesn't that make you believe, like the Pre-Trib rapture folks, that Jesus' return is imminent and will come without any warning? Yet Paul wrote that the Day won't come on watching Christians like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4-10), and in Hebrews 10:24-25 suggests that Christians will be able to recognize when the Day (of Jesus' return) is approaching.

Postvieww said:

Nobody disputes our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. You are now left with the task of explaining how the man of sin sits in the temple of our body and shews himself to be God ????? Some preterists say the man of sin was Nero that is going to make it even tougher to explain?????

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You're kidding right?

Surely you know the church being God's temple is individually and collectively??? Paul and Peter can't be more clear about this!

When it comes to Nero the "sitting in the temple of God showing himself that he is god" that simply refers to Nero's persecution of the church for their refusal to recognize Caesar as Lord. Nero did this in his martyring of Peter and Paul as well as an unknown number of Christians which he killed for sport trying to show his own supremacy over Christians, who are the temple of God. Nero wanted the worship of Christians and therefore he is trying to replace God in His temple, which is the church!

It's right there in Matthew 24:9 as Jesus told them of their own persecution which gets worse as it gets to Jerusalem at Matthew 24:15-27. It is a fact that Christians had fled Jerusalem before the Romans surrounded it just as they were told to.

Luke17:37 said:

We're talking about two interpretations of prophecy. Basically, you are suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you on prophecy just doesn't know anything because your interpretations are facts. I'm sorry, but that's not the way it works.

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I'm saying what I believe just as you're saying what you believe. The fact is, we can both be wrong but we can't both be right. Furthermore, find anywhere I said "people that disagree with me don't know anything".

Luke17:37 said:

Matthew 24:30
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



This is about Jesus' bodily return, and it hasn't happened. This wasn't the first century.

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Once more...it says "they will see the SIGN...." do yourself a favor and look that up in the Greek. It's not referring to Jesus bodily return.

Luke17:37 said:

Well, you say there is no pre-Tribulation rapture, and I agree with that, but it doesn't sound like you believe in a future Tribulation. So in effect, doesn't that make you believe, like the Pre-Trib rapture folks, that Jesus' return is imminent and will come without any warning? Yet Paul wrote that the Day won't come on watching Christians like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4-10), and in Hebrews 10:24-25 suggests that Christians will be able to recognize when the Day (of Jesus' return) is approaching.

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What I believe is the church has gone through numerous tribulations and there are more to come, They ARE NOT the tribulation of Matthew 24 though. That tribulation was against the Jews and it was God's ultimate judgment of them for breaking the covenant as Leviticus 26:14-46 says. Why do you think Revelation has seven seals, seven trumpets and seven vials of judgement? Jerusalem/Israel is being judged!

When it comes to the rapture that refers to living believers at the time of Christ return...those who are alive are caught up after believers who have died are resurrected. The rapture is concurrent with resurrection!

As for "the Day of the Lord"...you do realize the judgment of Jerusalem was a "day of the Lord"? Jesus made this clear when He quoted Isaiah 13:10 at matthew 24:29...what's happening in Isaiah 13?

ebedmelech said:

I'm saying what I believe just as you're saying what you believe. The fact is, we can both be wrong but we can't both be right.

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That's true.

ebedmelech said:

Furthermore, find anywhere I said "people that disagree with me don't know anything".

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"Most erroneous"
"It's a fact!"
"You really missed..."
"Try getting the understanding of..."
"You simply don't understand Scripture then."
"You did pay attention to the word "SIGN"???"
"Haven't you read Matthew 23:37-39???"

These types of remarks and punctuation communicate contempt for views alternative to yours. I paraphrased, but that's what you essentially communicated.

ebedmelech said:

Once more...it says "they will see the SIGN...." do yourself a favor and look that up in the Greek. It's not referring to Jesus bodily return.

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"Do yourself a favor and look that up in the Greek." Look, this is just more condescension from you. You don't communicate any sense of care about my favor.

Matthew 24:30 goes on to explain that they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. You ignored that part.

ebedmelech said:

What I believe is the church has gone through numerous tribulations and there are more to come, They ARE NOT the tribulation of Matthew 24 though. That tribulation was against the Jews and it was God's ultimate judgment of them for breaking the covenant as Leviticus 26:14-46 says. Why do you think Revelation has seven seals, seven trumpets and seven vials of judgement? Jerusalem/Israel is being judged!

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I believe the whole world will be judged when the seals, trumpets and bowls come--not just Israel. I believe the 1st century church's experiences reflect the last generation's prophecies.

ebedmelech said:

When it comes to the rapture that refers to living believers at the time of Christ return...those who are alive are caught up after believers who have died are resurrected. The rapture is concurrent with resurrection!

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I agree. The resurrection-gathering is on the day of Jesus' return.

ebedmelech said:

As for "the Day of the Lord"...you do realize the judgment of Jerusalem was a "day of the Lord"? Jesus made this clear when He quoted Isaiah 13:10 at matthew 24:29...what's happening in Isaiah 13?

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I agree that Jerusalem was judged in the what led culminated in the destruction in AD 70, but when you say He made it clear you are assuming that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in that time. I don't consider Matthew 24 or Isaiah 13 to be completely fulfilled. I see these differently than you. I believe most of the time "day of the Lord" refers to Messiah's second coming.

Riberra said:

Revelation 6:9-11 makes my point perfectly ,John saw the SOULS of the martyrs in Heaven not their resurrected body.

Revelation 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

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Riberra said:

i see that you don't believe that the bulk of the Church is already in Heaven.The bulk of the Church in Heaven is made of all the souls of the believers who have died since Jesus rised 2,000 years ago they are described wearing white garnment.

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Your point is utter nonsense Riberra. Do you know what an altar is Riberra? Do you know the difference between a soul and a body?

Souls kept under the altar in Revelation 6:9 is not the same as resurrected bodies raised and went to the holy city in Matthew 27:52-53.


Souls don't die and are separated from the body upon death. They're kept in confinement until their dead body is resurrected. Before Christ's first advent, souls were kept in Abraham's bosom. No one went to heaven before Christ came. John 3:13 refutes your notion that people automatically goes to heaven upon death. People can only go there upon God/Christ resurrecting their bodies. Ever heard of the first and second resurrection?


Same thing mentioned in Isaiah 26:19-21. People cannot go to heaven until their bodies are resurrected.


When people really go to heaven, they don't go to an altar, they go to a place in heaven called Paradise.


Now stop posting more foolish nonsense and explain to us how will Jesus resurrect the dead in Christ during the rapture if they are all already in heaven?

Riberra said:

Check the news and you will notice that our brethrens are being tortured and killed everyday in Muslim countries because they are Christians ..fulfilling verse 11. It seem that we are in the second phase of the 5 th Seal ...We can thanks God that untill now we are escaping these things.

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This doesn't prove the bulk of the church is in heaven. It also shows you can't prove your ridiculous theory. And it proves you wish to avoid my question.

"How will Jesus resurrect all the dead in Christ during the rapture if they're already in heaven?"










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Psalm3704 said:

Your point is utter nonsense Riberra. Do you know what an altar is Riberra? Do you know the difference between a soul and a body?

Souls kept under the altar in Revelation 6:9 is not the same as resurrected bodies raised and went to the holy city in Matthew 27:52-53.

Revelation 6:9
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Matthew 27:52-53 New King James Version (NKJV)
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

Souls don't die and are separated from the body upon death. They're kept in confinement until their dead body is resurrected. Before Christ's first advent, souls were kept in Abraham's bosom. No one went to heaven before Christ came. John 3:13 refutes your notion that people automatically goes to heaven upon death. People can only go there upon God/Christ resurrecting their bodies. Ever heard of the first and second resurrection?

John 3:13 King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.​

Same thing mentioned in Isaiah 26:19-21. People cannot go to heaven until their bodies are resurrected.

Isaiah 26:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.​

When people really go to heaven, they don't go to an altar, they go to a place in heaven called Paradise.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 New King James Version (NKJV)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Luke 23:43 New King James Version (NKJV)
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”​

Now stop posting more foolish nonsense and explain to us how will Jesus resurrect the dead in Christ during the rapture if they are all already in heaven?



This doesn't prove the bulk of the church is in heaven. It also shows you can't prove your ridiculous theory. And it proves you wish to avoid my question.

"How will Jesus resurrect all the dead in Christ during the rapture if they're already in heaven?"










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Psalm3704 said:

Your point is utter nonsense Riberra. Do you know what an altar is Riberra? Do you know the difference between a soul and a body?

There is nothing scripturally wrong with the quotes you posted from Riberra.

2 Corintians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Souls kept under the altar in Revelation 6:9 is not the same as resurrected bodies raised and went to the holy city in Matthew 27:52-53.

You have yet to show those raised in Matt.27:52-53 were not just raised as Lazurus was. What is the evidence they were raised in glorified eternal bodies? I see none. Where are we told they went after being “raised”? Where do those raised in Matt 27:52-53 fit into 1 Corin. 15:23? They don’t!

1 Corin 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Souls don't die and are separated from the body upon death.

True, They don't die and they are separated from the body at death.

They're kept in confinement until their dead body is resurrected.

If you want to call what Paul described in 2 Corin 5:6-8 and Philip. 1:21-23 confinement, OK.

Before Christ's first advent, souls were kept in Abraham's bosom. No one went to heaven before Christ came.

True.

John 3:13 refutes your notion that people automatically goes to heaven upon death.

No it doesn’t.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Doesn't say they never will. Up until the resurrection of Christ that was true, Paul says different now.

People can only go there upon God/Christ resurrecting their bodies.

Paul disagrees with you.

When people really go to heaven, they don't go to an altar, they go to a place in heaven called Paradise.

Where is that alter located?

Now stop posting more foolish nonsense and explain to us how will Jesus resurrect the dead in Christ during the rapture if they are all already in heaven?

Their souls are now in heaven per 2 Corin 5:6-8 and Philip.1:21-23 and Rev 6:9 those souls now with Jesus will return with Him at His coming, 1 Thess 4:13-14 and be raised in a new body 1 Thess. 4:16.

This doesn't prove the bulk of the church is in heaven. It also shows you can't prove your ridiculous theory. And it proves you wish to avoid my question.

Those that sleep in Jesus are and will return with Him at His coming 1 Thess 4:13-14.

"How will Jesus resurrect all the dead in Christ during the rapture if they're already in heaven?"

See above.

Postvieww said:

Their souls are now in heaven per 2 Corin 5:6-8 and Philip.1:21-23 and Rev 6:9 those souls now with Jesus will return with Him at His coming, 1 Thess 4:13-14 and be raised in a new body 1 Thess. 4:16.

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You wouldn't look equally as foolish as him had you used appropriate scriptures to present your case. Read what 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and 1 Philippians 1:21-23 are saying. Better yet, have someone interpret what it means to you. I don't even know if you'll know what it means with these easier to understand translations.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 New Living Translation (NLT)
6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Good News Translation (GNT)
6 So we are always full of courage. We know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord's home. 7 For our life is a matter of faith, not of sight. 8 We are full of courage and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and be at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
6 So we always have confidence. We know that while we live in this body, we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by what we believe will happen, not by what we can see. 8 So I say that we have confidence. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 New Century Version (NCV)
6 So we always have courage. We know that while we live in this body, we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by what we believe, not by what we can see. 8 So I say that we have courage. We really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21-23 New Living Translation (NLT)
21 For to me, living means living for Christ, and dying is even better. 22 But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don’t know which is better. 23 I’m torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me.

Philippians 1:21-23 Good News Translation (GNT)
21 For what is life? To me, it is Christ. Death, then, will bring more. 22 But if by continuing to live I can do more worthwhile work, then I am not sure which I should choose. 23 I am pulled in two directions. I want very much to leave this life and be with Christ, which is a far better thing;

Philippians 1:21-23 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
21 To me, the only important thing about living is Christ. And even death would be for my benefit. 22 If I continue living here on earth, I will be able to work for the Lord. But what would I choose—to live or to die? I don’t know. 23 It would be a hard choice. Sometimes I want to leave this life and be with Christ. That would be much better for me;

Philippians 1:21-23 New Century Version (NCV)
21 To me the only important thing about living is Christ, and dying would be profit for me. 22 If I continue living in my body, I will be able to work for the Lord. I do not know what to choose—living or dying. 23 It is hard to choose between the two. I want to leave this life and be with Christ, which is much better,








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Luke17:37 said:

That's true.

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Indeed

Luke17:37 said:

"Most erroneous"
"It's a fact!"
"You really missed..."
"Try getting the understanding of..."
"You simply don't understand Scripture then."
"You did pay attention to the word "SIGN"???"
"Haven't you read Matthew 23:37-39???"

These types of remarks and punctuation communicate contempt for views alternative to yours. I paraphrased, but that's what you essentially communicated.

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How does those statements infer contempt? They clearly make the point I believe I'm right and they're wrong...but I don't see "contempt".

Luke17:37 said:

"Do yourself a favor and look that up in the Greek." Look, this is just more condescension from you. You don't communicate any sense of care about my favor.

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I did allow some testy exchanges with another poster to get me to that point...and I shouldn't have allowed it to carry over to our debate. You have been most cordial. My apology.

Luke17:37 said:

Matthew 24:30 goes on to explain that they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. You ignored that part.

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This is apocalyptic language and judgment language. Why do you think Jesus compares it to the "days of Noah"? That was judgement in Noah's day, just as this was judgment of Jerusalem. Other places to compare is Nahum 1 as judgement comes to Nineveh. Also Isaiah 19:1, where Isaiah prophesied God judging Egypt:
The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

Lamentations 2:1:
How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He has cast from heaven to earth The glory of Israel, And has not remembered His footstool In the day of His anger.

Ezekiel 32:7:
7 “And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.

This is all the prophetic language of judgement in scripture. Jesus came in judgement of Jerusalem. This is what "coming on clouds in power and great glory"" is indicating.

Luke17:37 said:

I believe the whole world will be judged when the seals, trumpets and bowls come--not just Israel. I believe the 1st century church's experiences reflect the last generation's prophecies.

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This is Jerusalem's judgement. Have you disregarded Matthew 24:34?:
34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Jesus pronounced this upon "that generation" not this one. I hold it is Jerusalem.

Luke17:37 said:

I agree. The resurrection-gathering is on the day of Jesus' return.

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Ok.

Luke17:37 said:

I agree that Jerusalem was judged in the what led culminated in the destruction in AD 70, but when you say He made it clear you are assuming that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in that time. I don't consider Matthew 24 or Isaiah 13 to be completely fulfilled. I see these differently than you. I believe most of the time "day of the Lord" refers to Messiah's second coming.

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Isaiah 13 was fulfilled as the Medes defeated Babylon. Daniel 5 recorded as God put "the handwriting on the wall" for Belshazzar it except all the details aren't aren't there.

Most of Matthew 24 is completed except God is still gathering His elect. Matthew 25 is the rest of the story.

Psalm3704 said:

Your point is utter nonsense Riberra. Do you know what an altar is Riberra? Do you know the difference between a soul and a body?

Souls kept under the altar in Revelation 6:9 is not the same as resurrected bodies raised and went to the holy city in Matthew 27:52-53.

Revelation 6:9
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the SOULS of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Matthew 27:52-53 New King James Version (NKJV)
52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

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I never said they were the same.

Psalm3704 said:

Souls don't die and are separated from the body upon death. They're kept in confinement until their dead body is resurrected. Before Christ's first advent, souls were kept in Abraham's bosom. No one went to heaven before Christ came. John 3:13 refutes your notion that people automatically goes to heaven upon death. People can only go there upon God/Christ resurrecting their bodies. Ever heard of the first and second resurrection?

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The souls of the dead believers goes to heaven ....their souls are separated from their earthly bodies upon death and are with Jesus in Heaven

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 New Living Translation (NLT)
6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be AWAY from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

Psalm3704 said:

This doesn't prove the bulk of the church is in heaven. It also shows you can't prove your ridiculous theory. And it proves you wish to avoid my question.

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There is probably more souls of dead believers /separated from their earthly bodies/ who are in the presence of Jesus in Heaven that the total numbers of believers living on the Earth right now.

Psalm3704 said:

"How will Jesus resurrect all the dead in Christ during the rapture if they're already in heaven?"

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Jesus will bring with Him the souls of the dead believers which are in Heaven when He will descend on the Earth to resurrect their bodies.

ebedmelech said:

How does those statements infer contempt? They clearly make the point I believe I'm right and they're wrong...but I don't see "contempt".

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To me they sounded condescending. And the words seemed assured of their own truth, as if someone was trying to mock an ignorant person about their lack of knowledge or unbelief concerning a well established fact. But we are not discussing mathematics or applied science or something else where the truth is visible to all and should be uncontested. We are discussing Biblical prophecy.

ebedmelech said:

I did allow some testy exchanges with another poster to get me to that point...and I shouldn't have allowed it to carry over to our debate. You have been most cordial. My apology.

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Thank you.

ebedmelech said:

This is apocalyptic language and judgment language. Why do you think Jesus compares it to the "days of Noah"? That was judgement in Noah's day, just as this was judgment of Jerusalem. Another place to compare is Nahum 1 as judgement comes to Nineveh.

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Personally, I view Matthew 24:29-31 as very straightforward and unfulfilled - Jesus' sign will appear in the sky, the world will see it and mourn, and that they will see Jesus Himself coming in the clouds, and that He will have His angels gather His elect from all over the globe. I believe the Noah references are telling us the wicked will be die when Jesus returns (Revelation 19:21). I don't think it has anything to do with the temple being destroyed in A.D. 70.

ebedmelech said:

This is Jerusalem's judgement. Have you disregarded Matthew 24:34?:
34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Jesus pronounced this upon "that generation" not this one. I hold it is Jerusalem.

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I see it as the generation that sees all these signs (vs. 33). They maybe thought they were that generation for awhile, but I don't think they were. The gospel didn't go out to every nation, tribe and tongue in the whole world yet (it's almost there, today). As I told you, I don't believe that the abomination of desolation was the destruction of the temple in AD 70. We don't have historical records of the heavenly bodies doing the things spoken of in verse 29. And Jesus didn't come back in the flesh and gather His Church (in the sky) immediately after that tribulation in the first century or any time since. I believe the parable of the fig tree applies to the last generation of the current age (before Jesus reigns on the earth with the saints for one thousand years+)--to the generation who sees all these things fulfilled.

ebedmelech said:

Isaiah 13 was fulfilled as the Medes defeated Babylon. Daniel 5 recorded as God put "the handwriting on the wall" for Belshazzar it except all the details aren't aren't there.

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I see the bulk of Isaiah 13 (especially 13:1-13) as being fulfilled when Jesus returns and destroys Mystery Babylon, laying low the pride of men who oppose God.

Isaiah 13:13
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the Lord of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.

ebedmelech said:

Most of Matthew 24 is completed except God is still gathering His elect. Matthew 25 is the rest of the story.

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I believe the gathering of the elect is a supernatural event in the sky - the same event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, not a gradual building up of the Church by more and more people embracing the gospel message. The last parable of Matthew 24 and the parables of Matthew 25 are warnings to the Church concerning how to watch for Jesus' return, since everyone featured are supposed to be Christ's servants yet in each parable there are casualties (people who don't endure and inherit eternal life with Christ). We want to be counted among the overcomers who remain steadfast in belief and obedience.

Luke17:37 said:

Personally, I view Matthew 24:29-31 as very straightforward and unfulfilled - Jesus' sign will appear in the sky, the world will see it and mourn, and that they will see Jesus Himself coming in the clouds, and that He will have His angels gather His elect from all over the globe. I believe the Noah references are telling us the wicked will be die when Jesus returns (Revelation 19:21). I don't think it has anything to do with the temple being destroyed in A.D. 70.

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What I see is the context, which is judgement. This is why Jesus uses the language of judgement that God used in the OT. Just as the references I provided are in the context of God judging nations as well as the judgment of Noah's world.

Luke's version gives insight to this in his version of the Olivet Discourse. Luke makes it clear this is about Jerusalem it 21:20-24:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This has been fulfilled...and it's a fact, and it happened as Christ's judgment upon Jerusalem/Israel!

Luke17:37 said:

I see it as the generation that sees all these signs (vs. 33). They maybe thought they were that generation for awhile, but I don't think they were. The gospel didn't go out to every nation, tribe and tongue in the whole world yet (it's almost there, today). As I told you, I don't believe that the abomination of desolation was the destruction of the temple in AD 70. We don't have historical records of the heavenly bodies doing the things spoken of in verse 29. And Jesus didn't come back in the flesh and gather His Church (in the sky) immediately after that tribulation in the first century or any time since. I believe the parable of the fig tree applies to the last generation of the current age (before Jesus reigns on the earth with the saints for one thousand years+)--to the generation who sees all these things fulfilled.

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When you look at EVERY occurrence of Jesus saying "this generation" it means that generation he's speaking to. Why does it suddenly change there?

Luke17:37 said:

I see the bulk of Isaiah 13 (especially 13:1-13) as being fulfilled when Jesus returns and destroys Mystery Babylon, laying low the pride of men who oppose God.

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No. Mystery Babylon is a description of Israel and all the spiritual harlotry we read of in the OT. This is how God said it to Moses in Deuteronomy 31
15 The Lord appeared in the tent in a pillar of cloud, and the pillar of cloud stood at the doorway of the tent.
16 The Lord said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, ‘Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?’
18 But I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they will do, for they will turn to other gods.

Luke17:37 said:

Isaiah 13:13
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the Lord of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

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Once again, this is language scripture uses to show God's judgement. This type language is all through the prophets, Job, and the Psalms. Often referred to as "cosmic language"

Luke17:37 said:

I believe the gathering of the elect is a supernatural event in the sky - the same event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, not a gradual building up of the Church by more and more people embracing the gospel message.

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So do I...but in this instance it is not.

Luke17:37 said:

The last parable of Matthew 24 and the parables of Matthew 25 are warnings to the Church concerning how to watch for Jesus' return, since everyone featured are supposed to be Christ's servants yet in each parable there are casualties (people who don't endure and inherit eternal life with Christ). We want to be counted among the overcomers who remain steadfast in belief and obedience.

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As one follows this passage, Jesus presents "the parable of the fig tree". Some imagine the fig tree to be Israel, but the context tells you this is not. Jesus is telling his disciples how THEY can know His judgement was about to occur. That is why the personal pronoun "you" is used. One cannot forget Jesus is telling this to the disciples...not us.

In each parable in Matthew 25 it shows Jesus to be gone for a while. With the Ten Virgins "the Bridegroom" (Christ) DELAYED His coming. In "the parable of the talents" The master (Christ) is on a "long journey". This is Christ leaving earth in His ascension to the Father, leaving the church to work His harvest, and His physical return after God's redemption plan is fulfilled. It is then that Christ will return and judge the world in righteousness.

Psalm3704 said:

You wouldn't look equally as foolish as him had you used appropriate scriptures to present your case. Read what 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and 1 Philippians 1:21-23 are saying. Better yet, have someone interpret what it means to you. I don't even know if you'll know what it means with these easier to understand translations.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 New Living Translation (NLT)
6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Good News Translation (GNT)
6 So we are always full of courage. We know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord's home. 7 For our life is a matter of faith, not of sight. 8 We are full of courage and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and be at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
6 So we always have confidence. We know that while we live in this body, we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by what we believe will happen, not by what we can see. 8 So I say that we have confidence. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 New Century Version (NCV)
6 So we always have courage. We know that while we live in this body, we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by what we believe, not by what we can see. 8 So I say that we have courage. We really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21-23 New Living Translation (NLT)
21 For to me, living means living for Christ, and dying is even better. 22 But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don’t know which is better. 23 I’m torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me.

Philippians 1:21-23 Good News Translation (GNT)
21 For what is life? To me, it is Christ. Death, then, will bring more. 22 But if by continuing to live I can do more worthwhile work, then I am not sure which I should choose. 23 I am pulled in two directions. I want very much to leave this life and be with Christ, which is a far better thing;

Philippians 1:21-23 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
21 To me, the only important thing about living is Christ. And even death would be for my benefit. 22 If I continue living here on earth, I will be able to work for the Lord. But what would I choose—to live or to die? I don’t know. 23 It would be a hard choice. Sometimes I want to leave this life and be with Christ. That would be much better for me;

Philippians 1:21-23 New Century Version (NCV)
21 To me the only important thing about living is Christ, and dying would be profit for me. 22 If I continue living in my body, I will be able to work for the Lord. I do not know what to choose—living or dying. 23 It is hard to choose between the two. I want to leave this life and be with Christ, which is much better,








.

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You wouldn't look equally as foolish as him had you used appropriate scriptures to present your case.

Must you always be so condescending?

Read what 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and 1 Philippians 1:21-23 are saying. Better yet, have someone interpret what it means to you. I don't even know if you'll know what it means with these easier to understand translations.

Since you are so much more enlightened it is your responsibility to share your knowledge.

Matthew 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.




2 Corinthians 5:6-8 New Living Translation (NLT)

6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.



2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Good News Translation (GNT)

6 So we are always full of courage. We know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord's home. 7 For our life is a matter of faith, not of sight. 8 We are full of courage and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and be at home with the Lord.



2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

6 So we always have confidence. We know that while we live in this body, we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by what we believe will happen, not by what we can see. 8 So I say that we have confidence. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord.



2 Corinthians 5:6-8 New Century Version (NCV)

6 So we always have courage. We know that while we live in this body, we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by what we believe, not by what we can see. 8 So I say that we have courage. We really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord.


Philippians 1:21-23 New Living Translation (NLT)

21 For to me, living means living for Christ, and dying is even better. 22 But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don’t know which is better. 23 I’m torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me.


Philippians 1:21-23 Good News Translation (GNT)

21 For what is life? To me, it is Christ. Death, then, will bring more. 22 But if by continuing to live I can do more worthwhile work, then I am not sure which I should choose. 23 I am pulled in two directions. I want very much to leave this life and be with Christ, which is a far better thing;


Philippians 1:21-23 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

21 To me, the only important thing about living is Christ. And even death would be for my benefit. 22 If I continue living here on earth, I will be able to work for the Lord. But what would I choose—to live or to die? I don’t know. 23 It would be a hard choice. Sometimes I want to leave this life and be with Christ. That would be much better for me;


Philippians 1:21-23 New Century Version (NCV)

21 To me the only important thing about living is Christ, and dying would be profit for me. 22 If I continue living in my body, I will be able to work for the Lord. I do not know what to choose—living or dying. 23 It is hard to choose between the two. I want to leave this life and be with Christ, which is much better,

I would say it means the same thing in your easy to understand translation as it does in the very difficult KJV .

If you have some deeper meaning other than what a simple reading reveals then by all means you should share it with everyone.

ebedmelech said:

We are in the thousand year reign of Christ right now.

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Shouldn't that be two thousand year reign?

ebedmelech said:

What I see is the context, which is judgement. This is why Jesus uses the language of judgement that God used in the OT. Just as the references I provided are in the context of God judging nations as well as the judgment of Noah's world.

Luke's version gives insight to this in his version of the Olivet Discourse. Luke makes it clear this is about Jerusalem it 21:20-24:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

This has been fulfilled...and it's a fact, and it happened as Christ's judgment upon Jerusalem/Israel!

When you look at EVERY occurrence of Jesus saying "this generation" it means that generation he's speaking to. Why does it suddenly change there?


No. Mystery Babylon is a description of Israel and all the spiritual harlotry we read of in the OT. This is how God said it to Moses in Deuteronomy 31
15 The Lord appeared in the tent in a pillar of cloud, and the pillar of cloud stood at the doorway of the tent.
16 The Lord said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, ‘Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?’
18 But I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they will do, for they will turn to other gods.

Once again, this is language scripture uses to show God's judgement. This type language is all through the prophets, Job, and the Psalms. Often referred to as "cosmic language"


So do I...but in this instance it is not.

As one follows this passage, Jesus presents "the parable of the fig tree". Some imagine the fig tree to be Israel, but the context tells you this is not. Jesus is telling his disciples how THEY can know His judgement was about to occur. That is why the personal pronoun "you" is used. One cannot forget Jesus is telling this to the disciples...not us.

In each parable in Matthew 25 it shows Jesus to be gone for a while. With the Ten Virgins "the Bridegroom" (Christ) DELAYED His coming. In "the parable of the talents" The master (Christ) is on a "long journey". This is Christ leaving earth in His ascension to the Father, leaving the church to work His harvest, and His physical return after God's redemption plan is fulfilled. It is then that Christ will return and judge the world in righteousness.

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Yes, those three parables indicate the perceived lateness of Jesus' return. It doesn't say Jesus delayed per say, but in the perspective of men He was delayed. Here we are, about 1,983 years after Jesus left.

I see that you have to interpret Matthew 24:29-31 as figurative in order for it to go along with the view that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century.

I was talking about Mystery Babylon the Great of Revelation 17-18, who receives the fierceness of God's wrath (Revelation 16:19). She's a mystery, so it follows that her identity isn't easily understood. I remember an atheist arguing online that it was a fact that Mystery Babylon the Great was the Roman Catholic Church. I asked him how he could be so confident that he properly understands the mysteries of a God he doesn't even believe in.

Bye Ebedmelech.

Douggg said:

There is no-one currently in heaven with resurrected bodies. It is their souls currently in heaven The verses in your previous post you cited, are verses regarding the day of Christ for Christians to stand before Him and have our lives reviewed is something every generation looks to. The rapture/resurrection hasn't happen, and neither has the day of Christ.

When the day of Christ does begin, the church, believers will have been resurrected/raptured to heaven, while the great tribulation, the Day of Christ here on earth takes place.

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Unto the Coming of Jesus the dead believers will be resurrected on the Earth where their dead bodies are buried....then their resurrected bodies will be caught up by the angels with the believers still alive to meet Jesus in the air ....There will be no trip to Heaven....because at that moment we will forever be with Jesus to reign with Him here on the Earth.

The pre-trib dreamed trip and stay in heaven for the believers alive before the tribulation is not mentionned anywhere in Scripture.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Shouldn't that be two thousand year reign?

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No. Revelation 20, where the thousand years are stated is based in how God uses thousand in scripture to indicate completeness, or long periods of time, or innumerable amounts. Passages like these:
Deuteronomy 1:11
11 May the Lord, the God of your fathers, increase you a thousand-fold more than you are and bless you, just as He has promised you!

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Psalm 50:10
10 “For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.

Psalm 84:10
10 For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand outside. I would rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God Than dwell in the tents of wickedness.

Psalm 90:4
2 For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night.

Psalm 105:8
8 He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,

I hold the "thousand year reign" to be figurative of the entire period that Jesus reigns until He puts all things in subjection to Himself and delivers the kingdom back to God as 1 Corinthian 15:27-28 says...also Hebrews 1 which quotes from Psalm 2 and Psalm 110 just to name a few.

Jesus received the reign from the Father in Matthew 28:18:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Jesus will return to judge the world in righteousness, at which time He will have put all things under His feet...which will end period of time called "the thousand year reign". He will then return the reign to God the Father.

Luke17:37 said:

Yes, those three parables indicate the perceived lateness of Jesus' return. It doesn't say Jesus delayed per say, but in the perspective of men He was delayed. Here we are, about 1,983 years after Jesus left.

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The ten virgins have come to meet the bridegroom, who's obviously not there. Matthew 25:5 says:
5 Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
That delay is an undetermined amount of time. In the Greek in means "to tarry". None of what you're saying is even in the passage. so you would be assuming. What we do know is the bridegroom Jesus is delaying. Even more, after he gives those parables isn't it interesting the next thing from Matthew 25:31-41 is the Lord speaking of His judgment?

Luke17:37 said:

I see that you have to interpret Matthew 24:29-31 as figurative in order for it to go along with the view that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century.

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I do nothing but what the prophesies do. They speak of judgment in cosmic language. That's why Jesus is quoting from those type passages. He expects the Jews to understand!

Luke17:37 said:

I was talking about Mystery Babylon the Great of Revelation 17-18, who receives the fierceness of God's wrath (Revelation 16:19). She's a mystery, so it follows that her identity isn't easily understood. I remember an atheist arguing online that it was a fact that Mystery Babylon the Great was the Roman Catholic Church. I asked him how he could be so confident that he properly understands the mysteries of a God he doesn't even believe in.

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That would be Jerusalem/Israel! Once again the prophets give us insight as Jeremiah 3:3 says of Israel:
3 “Therefore the showers have been withheld, And there has been no spring rain. Yet you had a harlot’s forehead; You refused to be ashamed.
Jerusalem/Israel is the harlot. I know Martin Luther and many of the Reformers believed it was the the Papacy...as a young believer I did too,because that is what I was taught. When I really began to dig and compare though, I realized it wasn't the Papacy.

Luke17:37 said:

Bye Ebedmelech.

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Goodbye...it's been nice, because these disagreements simply drive one back to scripture. We all need to do that. The time is definitely coming when we will all know and we will all realize our errors.

Riberra said:

I never said they were the same.

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You don't have to use the word rapture either when talking about Paul's catching away of the church.

Riberra said:

The souls of the dead believers goes to heaven ....their souls are separated from their earthly bodies upon death and are with Jesus in Heaven

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 New Living Translation (NLT)
6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be AWAY from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

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Second time this week!!! Wrong scripture.

Riberra said:

There is probably more souls of dead believers /separated from their earthly bodies/ who are in the presence of Jesus in Heaven that the total numbers of believers living on the Earth right now.

Jesus will bring with Him the souls of the dead believers which are in Heaven when He will descend on the Earth to resurrect their bodies.

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"Probably" is not scriptural!