The 10 Commandments are done away!

2 know him · May 17, 2016

Sophrosyne said:
Not how I read it, salvation is a gift and the only rule is we have to accept it by faith. The "rules" are guidelines on how Christians should act but without knowing them (not given a written rulebook) you would have people accepting Christ doubting their salvation when it is such that those who are truly saved automatically try to love others and please God and in doing so they tend to not do things that "rules" say not to do. We don't have Jesus proclaiming any rules for the thief on the cross at all do we?

We have the thief on the cross doing all he can in accepting his sins and pleading to God for mercy. Faith without works is dead and Jesus nowhere said to believe in his sacrifice and you will be saved. The teachings of Christ are the commandments of his Father and they will judge a man and upon how a man walks in those will his salvation be secured; forgive not and you will not be forgiven no matter what you think of Christ and his sacrifice.

Sophrosyne · May 17, 2016

2 know him said:
We have the thief on the cross doing all he can in accepting his sins and pleading to God for mercy. Faith without works is dead and Jesus nowhere said to believe in his sacrifice and you will be saved. The teachings of Christ are the commandments of his Father and they will judge a man and upon how a man walks in those will his salvation be secured; forgive not and you will not be forgiven no matter what you think of Christ and his sacrifice.

When doing all he can is just plainly asking to be saved then there is NO WORKS involved period. The "works" insisted upon by most folks ARE those which do require more than speaking words and a man nailed to a cross cannot do them.

2 know him · May 17, 2016

Sophrosyne said:
When doing all he can is just plainly asking to be saved then there is NO WORKS involved period. The "works" insisted upon by most folks ARE those which do require more than speaking words and a man nailed to a cross cannot do them.

And how do your beliefs embrace Jesus words spoken here:

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

FreeinChrist · May 17, 2016

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This thread has undergone a clean up. Folks, stick to addressing the content and not the other member.

Sophrosyne · May 17, 2016

2 know him said:
And how do your beliefs embrace Jesus words spoken here:

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Jesus is talking about people who don't really believe in him at all, the ones who choose to not believe him and "do it their own way" often by works and some of these people even use Jesus to make themselves feel like they are right but have no faith in him to begin with but faith in themselves.

Four Angels Standing · May 17, 2016

I think when Jesus repeated the nine commandments that were to be observed, that that is who Christians are to accept and believe.
As is the Sabbath day the same as what God established. Jesus is our sabbath rest. However what God said of the sabbath is simply what Jesus reiterated. He did not abolish it. Nor did he abolish the ten commandments.

I think Christians here have to take into account the motive of the worldly teachings that arrive from time to time, and their advocates, who try to convince the Saints that the moral codes of God no longer apply.
Why? Why would anyone attempt to convince us that the moral guidelines God set down don't apply? And when the Saints argue they do, those worldly advocates argue it is we who do not read the scriptures rightly.

What they do not comprehend because the Holy Spirit is not in them is that when Jesus said we are to love our neighbor, those moral laws are expressions of respect and love for one's neighbor.
Morality is a creed one holds out of self respect as well as in the spirit of respect for others.

The moral respectful Saint does not bear false witness, lie.
They do not steal. They do not commit adultery. They do not have any other gods before the one and only God, Yahweh.
They do not disrespect their parents. All the ten commandments command obedience to righteous, right, living. As Jesus reiterated when asked what commands still apply.

Therefore, I would suggest after 30 pages, that if the worldly insist that morality is no longer applicable for the Christian that the Christian realize what is actually being pursued. And that it has taken 30 pages shows the Saints are not persuaded to agree immorality is righteous.

bugkiller · May 17, 2016

Four Angels Standing said:
I think when Jesus repeated the nine commandments that were to be observed, that that is who Christians are to accept and believe.
As is the Sabbath day the same as what God established. Jesus is our sabbath rest. However what God said of the sabbath is simply what Jesus reiterated. He did not abolish it. Nor did he abolish the ten commandments.

I think Christians here have to take into account the motive of the worldly teachings that arrive from time to time, and their advocates, who try to convince the Saints that the moral codes of God no longer apply.
Why? Why would anyone attempt to convince us that the moral guidelines God set down don't apply? And when the Saints argue they do, those worldly advocates argue it is we who do not read the scriptures rightly.

What they do not comprehend because the Holy Spirit is not in them is that when Jesus said we are to love our neighbor, those moral laws are expressions of respect and love for one's neighbor.
Morality is a creed one holds out of self respect as well as in the spirit of respect for others.

The moral respectful Saint does not bear false witness, lie.
They do not steal. They do not commit adultery. They do not have any other gods before the one and only God, Yahweh.
They do not disrespect their parents. All the ten commandments command obedience to righteous, right, living. As Jesus reiterated when asked what commands still apply.

Therefore, I would suggest after 30 pages, that if the worldly insist that morality is no longer applicable for the Christian that the Christian realize what is actually being pursued. And that it has taken 30 pages shows the Saints are not persuaded to agree immorality is righteous.

What exactly do you believe about Jer 31:31-33? I'm most curious about the words and phrases "new" and "not according to." Thanks.

bugkiller

2 know him · May 25, 2016

Sophrosyne said:
Jesus is talking about people who don't really believe in him at all, the ones who choose to not believe him and "do it their own way" often by works and some of these people even use Jesus to make themselves feel like they are right but have no faith in him to begin with but faith in themselves.

Jesus is talking to his followers and he states:
Mat 7:21 " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

The only thing that Jesus states that keeps people out is their works: "depart from me, ye that "work" iniquity" [Staff edit]

Bob S · May 25, 2016

Four Angels Standing said:
I think when Jesus repeated the nine commandments that were to be observed, that that is who Christians are to accept and believe.

And what about the other one?

As is the Sabbath day the same as what God established. Jesus is our sabbath rest. However what God said of the sabbath is simply what Jesus reiterated. He did not abolish it. Nor did he abolish the ten commandments.

Jesus didn't have to abolish the 10, they went away when the old covenant ended at the Cross. Christians are under the new covenant.

I think Christians here have to take into account the motive of the worldly teachings that arrive from time to time, and their advocates, who try to convince the Saints that the moral codes of God no longer apply.

Moral codes have been here since Adam and will be here as they stand until Jesus returns. The ritual codes given only to Israel are the ones Christianity disputes. They were given only to Israel and lasted until God could no longer tolerate their being trampled.

Why? Why would anyone attempt to convince us that the moral guidelines God set down don't apply? And when the Saints argue they do, those worldly advocates argue it is we who do not read the scriptures rightly.

So now you are the Saints? Your terminology would make us sinners believe we are lost because it is only you that has the correct interpretation of the scriptures. I suppose you are referring to ol ellen, the false prophet, as giving the "saints" the correct version.

What they do not comprehend because the Holy Spirit is not in them is that when Jesus said we are to love our neighbor, those moral laws are expressions of respect and love for one's neighbor.
Morality is a creed one holds out of self respect as well as in the spirit of respect for others.

Boy, you seem to be more than a fruit inspector, you seem to be the judge. We don't have the Holy Spirit in us because we see scripture differently than you try to make us believe? Ever hear of the Pharisees? They too looked down on others. Jesus set them straight concerning their superiority.

The moral respectful Saint does not bear false witness, lie.
They do not steal. They do not commit adultery. They do not have any other gods before the one and only God, Yahweh.
They do not disrespect their parents. All the ten commandments command obedience to righteous, right, living. As Jesus reiterated when asked what commands still apply.

According to Jesus you would not qualify to sainthood because all of us fall short of keeping the law. The 10 commandments do not mention love which is the greatest commandment and the one Christians are under. 1Jn3:19-24

Therefore, I would suggest after 30 pages, that if the worldly insist that morality is no longer applicable for the Christian that the Christian realize what is actually being pursued. And that it has taken 30 pages shows the Saints are not persuaded to agree immorality is righteous.

Well, you surely have given us who do not agree with you a severe tongue lashing. Just remember the old adage, when you point a finger at others you have four pointing back at you.

You have certainly read our posts without acknowledging the fact that no one has ever said Christians are not under the moral code given to all mankind. We dispute the notion that we are under the 10 commandments. Paul makes that very clear in the following: 2Cor 3:
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, (the 10 Commandments) came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory (temporary) though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory (temporary) came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! (the guidance of the Holy Spirit)

You cannot read the Word and not recognize that the 10 commandments were temporary. They were part of the old covenant and are now history. They ended when the new covenant began at the Cross. I suggest, instead of being critical of other Christians, that you study what you now believe to be true. [Staff edit] Criticizing others is not helping you to see the real truth found in scripture. You are in my prayers.

bugkiller · May 26, 2016

2 know him said:
Jesus is talking to his followers and he states:
Mat 7:21 " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

The only thing that Jesus states that keeps people out is their works: "depart from me, ye that "work" iniquity"

I follow this forum pretty closely and have for years. I certainly disagree with your assessment.

bugkiller

bugkiller · May 26, 2016

Four Angels Standing said:
Therefore, I would suggest after 30 pages, that if the worldly insist that morality is no longer applicable for the Christian that the Christian realize what is actually being pursued. And that it has taken 30 pages shows the Saints are not persuaded to agree immorality is righteous.

The above statement is simply a way to try and sneak in the back door while no one is looking. Better luck next time.

bugkiller

Four Angels Standing · May 27, 2016

Bob S said:
And what about the other one?

Still valid. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.

Jesus didn't have to abolish the 10, they went away when the old covenant ended at the Cross. Christians are under the new covenant.

Which Jesus taught included the moral codes of God.

Moral codes have been here since Adam and will be here as they stand until Jesus returns. The ritual codes given only to Israel are the ones Christianity disputes. They were given only to Israel and lasted until God could no longer tolerate their being trampled.

Good. Then the moral codes are still valid. Glad you agree.

So now you are the Saints?

"You"? All Christians are Saints.

Your terminology would make us sinners believe we are lost because it is only you that has the correct interpretation of the scriptures. I suppose you are referring to ol ellen, the false prophet, as giving the "saints" the correct version.

[Staff edit]

Saints are not sinners. They are newborns in Christ. That doesn't mean they are perfect. It means that what was called sin is now not held against them. They repent of wrong doing. If someone reads the New Testament they know in the scriptures when the divide occurs between those Jesus called sinners and those to whom he ever referred to as Saints.

Don't imply slander against the Seventh Day Adventist members here in order to make your counter argument that is one that is clearly not aware of all text in the New Testament. Jesus referred to the Saints.

Boy, you seem to be more than a fruit inspector, you seem to be the judge. We don't have the Holy Spirit in us because we see scripture differently than you try to make us believe? Ever hear of the Pharisees? They too looked down on others. Jesus set them straight concerning their superiority.

[Staff edit]
You attempt to interject a personal insult using Pharisees and Jesus in the same breath so as to skirt the rules here?

[Staff edit]

BABerean2 · May 27, 2016

Sabbath in the New Covenant of Christ
Former SDA Pastor: Dale Ratzlaff

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (Here the Law of Moses is compared to a yoke of bondage. He could not have been talking about circumcision, because it was something they did bear.)

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
(Paul compares the Sinai covenant to bondage.)

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (New Jerusalem is now in heaven. Hebrews 11:16)

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. (Paul is telling us to cast out the Sinai covenant of bondage.)

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. (We are children of the New Covenant, instead of the Old.)

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(The Law was added 430 years after the promise to Abraham.)

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. (The inheritance does not come through the law.)

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
(The law was "added" "until" the Seed (Christ) could come.)

.

Bob S · May 27, 2016

Four Angels Standing said:
Still valid. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.

The fact is Jesus never ever asked a gentile to observe any day. When He died on the Cross a new covenant was ushered infor His followers that doesn't require the keeping of days. His Lordship over the Sabbath certainly only showed up for Israel.

Which Jesus taught included the moral codes of God.

Now you have it right. Sabbath was not a moral code, it was ritual. It had nothing to do with how we treat our fellow man or how we relate to Jesus.

Good. Then the moral codes are still valid. Glad you agree.

I always have and always will, it is called the law of love

"You"? All Christians are Saints.

True if they are true.

[Staff edit]

Saints are not sinners. They are newborns in Christ. That doesn't mean they are perfect. It means that what was called sin is now not held against them. They repent of wrong doing. If someone reads the New Testament they know in the scriptures when the divide occurs between those Jesus called sinners and those to whom he ever referred to as Saints.

Saints are saved sinners.

Don't imply slander against the Seventh Day Adventist members here in order to make your counter argument that is one that is clearly not aware of all text in the New Testament. Jesus referred to the Saints.

Some SDAs are my best friends. It is the teachings of the church [staff edit] that I cannot tolerate.

[Staff edit]
You attempt to interject a personal insult using Pharisees and Jesus in the same breath so as to skirt the rules here?

Insult??? I suppose if a person is legalistic and believe they are the only ones who have the "true church" (remnant). Pharisees fit that category as called out by Jesus.

[Staff edit]

Razare · May 28, 2016

2 know him said:
Jesus was saying that he came to raise the standards of the law, not to lower them, but he didn't preach the Torah. If you think salvation is in the 10 commandments you have totally missed Jesus message: Jesus raised the standards of the law and replaced its teachings with a higher set of rules.

One of the things I failed to hear from the grace message, was that the standard was raised, not lowered.

The way it gets preached, we can hear it wrong and think grace is easy street. And in one sense it is easy street because God is helping us by his grace. In that sense it is easier than us doing it ourselves.

However, what we are supposed to do with that grace exceeds what was required under the law. So we are to do more, but we are to do that greater good by grace.

bugkiller · May 29, 2016

Razare said:
One of the things I failed to hear from the grace message, was that the standard was raised, not lowered.

The way it gets preached, we can hear it wrong and think grace is easy street. And in one sense it is easy street because God is helping us by his grace. In that sense it is easier than us doing it ourselves.

However, what we are supposed to do with that grace exceeds what was required under the law. So we are to do more, but we are to do that greater good by grace.

Nope!!! You don't understand that salvation isn't based on performance. We couldn't keep the easier law and now you only want to put it further out of our reach. Amazing to say the least.

bugkiller

Four Angels Standing · May 31, 2016

Razare said:
One of the things I failed to hear from the grace message, was that the standard was raised, not lowered.

The way it gets preached, we can hear it wrong and think grace is easy street. And in one sense it is easy street because God is helping us by his grace. In that sense it is easier than us doing it ourselves.

However, what we are supposed to do with that grace exceeds what was required under the law. So we are to do more, but we are to do that greater good by grace.

We are certainly under grace. However, that does not mean the moral guidance God set down and that Jesus reiterated in his ministry no longer applies.

[Staff edit]

bugkiller · May 31, 2016

Four Angels Standing said:
We are certainly under grace. However, that does not mean the moral guidance God set down and that Jesus reiterated in his ministry no longer applies.

So the new approach is to refer the 10 Cs as moral guidance. Morality was always in effect. The 10 Cs weren't and aren't. There's absolutely no one except the pro law people making such a statement. You're trying to say the 4th commandment is a moral obligation of all mankind when it was given specifically to Israel alone as a sign of the covenant (Ex 31). As such it can't be an obligation to anyone else.

[Staff edit]

Bob S · Jun 1, 2016

bugkiller said:
You're trying to say the 4th commandment is a moral obligation of all mankind when it was given specifically to Israel alone as a sign of the covenant (Ex 31).

Amen brother. It was a ritual law given only to Israel for as long as the covenant was in force. When God had enough of the Jews disrespect of His laws, for only Israel, (Torah) He cancelled the covenant. That is a fact that cannot be disputed. Torah is history.

Question for all who believe we are still under parts of the Torah. Why would God impose the same laws on all mankind that caused a nation to fail? Israel failed in its observance of the Torah. What makes you believe you are doing any better? You will answer Grace. Well Israel had a form of Grace in the sacrificial system God set up for them. They were forgiven just as we are forgiven today.
Ezekiel 20:21
“‘But the children rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees, they were not careful to keep my laws, of which I said, “The person who obeys them will live by them,” and they desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in the wilderness.
Isaiah 1:13
Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations— I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.

Why would God be anymore pleased with you who also desecrate Israel's sign of the covenant, the Sabbath?

So is it grace or is it law? Can't be both.That is definitely not what the pro grace people are saying. You can find no pro grace person promoting wickedness (sin/immorality) any where in this section of the forum.

Amen again bugkiller. When backed into a corner they lash out with nonsense or personal attacks. What is so utterly sad is that they know they have no answer for their beliefs yet they will not admit and turn to the real truth, the simple plan of Salvation offered by Jesus in the new covenant. They continue to hold on to the things that make them stand apart from God's plan, so sad.

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