2Thessalonians2:7 explained

Psalm3704 said:

/INDENT]

The resurrection of the church happens in Isaiah 26:19 before descends to earth to judge everyone during the tribulation occurs in Isaiah 26:21 and destroys the beast in Isaiah 27:1. The church is in heaven Pre-Trib.

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The souls of all the dead believers who sleep in Christ which are part of the Church are already in Heaven growing everyday when a Christian die ---none of them were raptured to Heaven when still alive.They will be resurrected when Jesus will descend on the Earth with their souls.Their dead body will arise from the dust.....with their soul reunited.

Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.


1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Douggg said:

Day of Christ does not refer to the coming and gathering. You are trying to make both the Day of Christ and the rapture to be the Second Coming day. There is no day in verse 1 of any kind, because no-one knows the day. It does not even make sense that the Day of Christ is rapture day. And if it were the rapture day, as you are interpreting, why would anyone being told that day were at hand be troubled by the rapture taking place right away?



That day does refer to the Day of Christ, yes, but the Day of Christ is not in verse 1. And the Day of Christ is not the Second Coming day, but the Day of the Lord, the great tribulation. Which is why the thesslonians would have been troubled by it, that it had started.



Not "who prevents"' in this verse. Verse 7 is talking abouth letting, allowing. The preventing is back in verse 6, what withholds.

In verse 7 it is talking about the mystery of iniquity being allowed, letteth. And that the person who is doing the allowing, will continue to allow, until "he" is taken out of the way.


It says... And then shall that Wicked be revealed. The man of is revealed in the middle part of the seven years. Backed up by Revelation 13, which the person is worshiped for 42 months. At the end of the 42 months the person will be consumed by the brightness of Jesus's 2nd coming. Which is not the coming in verse 1.

The big glaring flaw in your reasoning is that you have completely ignored the great tribulation period, of over 3 1/2 years.. And why the thessalonians would have been troubled that the great tribulation period had already begun, or was very close to beginning.

You are reasoning that the Day of Christ is the Day of the Second Coming is the Day of the Rapture. Which is scripturally unsound. No one knows the day nor hour.


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Dougg said:
Day of Christ does not refer to the coming and gathering. You are trying to make both the Day of Christ and the rapture to be the Second Coming day. There is no day in verse 1 of any kind, because no-one knows the day. It does not even make sense that the Day of Christ is rapture day. And if it were the rapture day, as you are interpreting, why would anyone being told that day were at hand be troubled by the rapture taking place right away?

That day does refer to the Day of Christ, yes, but the Day of Christ is not in verse 1. And the Day of Christ is not the Second Coming day, but the Day of the Lord, the great tribulation. Which is why the thesslonians would have been troubled by it, that it had started.

It is you who are misinterpreting the day of Christ/ day of the Lord.

The following verses make no sense with your interpretation inserted.

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of (great tribulation)our Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of (great tribulation)Jesus Christ:

Philippians 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of (great tribulation) Christ.

Philippians 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of (great tribulation) Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of (great tribulation) Christ is at hand.

1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of (great tribulation) our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of (great tribulation) the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of (great tribulation) the Lord Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of (great tribulation) the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of (great tribulation) the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The day of Christ / day of the Lord is not the great tribulation it is just as Paul said in 2 Thess 2:1 “the coming of our Lord and our gathering unto him”.

Where are your verses to back up your statement “the Day of Christ is not the Second Coming day, but the Day of the Lord, the great tribulation”

It is a day, that day, 2 Timothy 1:18, 2 Timothy 4:8

This is but another desperate attempt to make 2 Thess 2 say something it does not.

Not "who prevents"' in this verse. Verse 7 is talking abouth letting, allowing. The preventing is back in verse 6, what withholds.

In verse 7 it is talking about the mystery of iniquity being allowed, letteth. And that the person who is doing the allowing, will continue to allow, until "he" is taken out of the way.

It says... And then shall that Wicked be revealed. The man of is revealed in the middle part of the seven years. Backed up by Revelation 13, which the person is worshiped for 42 months. At the end of the 42 months the person will be consumed by the brightness of Jesus's 2nd coming. Which is not the coming in verse 1.


The big glaring flaw in your reasoning is that you have completely ignored the great tribulation period, of over 3 1/2 years..

I have not ignored it, you have inserted it into a passage where it does not belong.

And why the thessalonians would have been troubled that the great tribulation period had already begun, or was very close to beginning.

The day of Christ in this passage refers to verse 1 the coming and gathering not the tribulation as I have proved in this post

You are reasoning that the Day of Christ is the Day of the Second Coming is the Day of the Rapture. Which is scripturally unsound.

You have ignored the clear wording of the text and inserted your own definitions that have no basis in scripture.

No one knows the day nor hour.

No one knows the day nor hour is not going to bail you out of this mess.




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Douggg said:

If that were true, then why would Paul tell the thessalonians not to be troubled or upset about that day being at hand - if they were going to be raptured on that day?

If you knew for certain that the rapture was going to happen tomorrow, would you be troubled about it? Or would you be rejoicing, superexcited, knowing that your troubles in the world were on a few hours to ending and your new eternal incorruptible body, like right now. Did Jesus say.... be depressed because your redemption draws near.

It doesn't make any sense what you are saying.

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Dougg said:
If that were true, then why would Paul tell the thessalonians not to be troubled or upset about that day being at hand - if they were going to be raptured on that day?

Nobody said they were going to be raptured on that day. "at hand"

If you knew for certain that the rapture was going to happen tomorrow, would you be troubled about it? Or would you be rejoicing, superexcited, knowing that your troubles in the world were on a few hours to ending and your new eternal incorruptible body, like right now. Did Jesus say.... be depressed because your redemption draws near.

Those people did not have the cannon all complete as we do, they were being led astray by erroneous teaching, that is why Paul said: “That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us” “Let no man deceive you by any means”.

We are hearing the same type of things to day, some are declaring all of this has already happened, some are claiming Jesus can come at any moment. That is why Paul told them and us, no the coming of the Lord and our gathering WILL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL FIRST the apostasy takes place and the man of sin has been revealed.

It doesn't make any sense what you are saying.

It does if you will leave Paul’s words alone and just accept what is written!

Douggg said:

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There is no "day" mentioned in verse 1.

However, to fit a post trib rapture into the verse, here is what would have to had been written (by misinterpreting Day of Christ, the way you do)....

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the Day of Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

... but there is no "day" in verse 1 of any kind.

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Dougg said:
There is no "day" mentioned in verse 1.

Yes there is, Christ will come and gather us on “a day”

However, to fit a post trib rapture into the verse, here is what would have to had been written (by misinterpreting Day of Christ, the way you do)....

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the Day of Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

... but there is no "day" in verse 1 of any kind.

The day of Christ is the same day as coming of the Lord. It is not the great tribulation as proved in post #323

Douggg said:

No, the great tribulation does not begin at the sixth seal. The sixth seal is at the very end of great tribulation because the events described in the 6th seal correspond to Matthew 24 of the heavens shakened and the sign of the Son of Man in heaven
- Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Deep rooted resentment is evident in that statement, riberia. It is clouding your thinking.

Them who will have been raptured will be in heaven at that time. So how is that statement in blue of yours possible? And what is the verse that says "rapturists begin to take the mark and worship the Beast man of sin to save their physical life"

Here is a video commentary on anger by a Jewish (Judaism) Rabbi on anger. He is a well-known psychiatrist. The video is not about religion. But it may be of interest to you regarding resentment.

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Dougg said:
No, the great tribulation does not begin at the sixth seal. The sixth seal is at the very end of great tribulation because the events described in the 6th seal correspond to Matthew 24 of the heavens shakened and the sign of the Son of Man in heaven

- Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

See Dougg we can agree at times! I would just add that it is at that sixth seal when Christ returns.

Rev 6: 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


Matt 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Amen

Riberra said:

The souls of all the dead believers who sleep in Christ which are part of the Church are already in Heaven growing everyday when a Christian die ---none of them were raptured to Heaven when still alive.They will be resurrected when Jesus will descend on the Earth with their souls.Their dead body will arise from the dust.....with their soul reunited.

Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

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Psalm3704 said:

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LOL!

Psalm3704 said:

[Funny image] ....

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i see that you don't believe that the bulk of the Church is already in Heaven.The bulk of the Church in Heaven is made of all the souls of the believers who have died since Jesus rised 2,000 years ago they are described wearing white garnment.

Douggg said:

No, it is still you who is mistaken. Those verses are for the believers - who will be in heaven. Where will the bride of Christ be during the great tribulation here on earth? In heaven. The day of Christ for them in heaven - rejoice for Satan the accuser has been cast down to earth. It is during the great tribulation here on earth, that in heaven the judgment and rewards of them for the cause of Christ will take place.

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Verse 11 explain who are those that Satan accused day and night before our God in Heaven.

Revelation 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Douggg said:

No, the great tribulation does not begin at the sixth seal. The sixth seal is at the very end of great tribulation because the events described in the 6th seal correspond to Matthew 24 of the heavens shakened and the sign of the Son of Man in heaven

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There is no coming of Jesus in glory in the clouds mentionned at the opening of the 6 th seal.... they can see Jesus SITTING on His throne in Heaven. That is not the sign of Jesus coming in the clouds in Glory described in Matthew 24:27-31
Matthew 24:27-31
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
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30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Douggg said:

Satan will be cast down for the time, times, half times.... while the raptured church the believers in are heaven, the end of our troubles here on earth are over. The brethern of them who have been raptured/resurrected, are them who become Christians after the rapture, and have been martyred, it is their souls in heaven.

There will be the raptured/resurrected in heaven; at the same time souls coming out of the great tribulation will be in heaven as well. They receive their resurrected bodies at the start of the millennium.

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Hmmmm. Jesus said this in in John 12:31-32:
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Jesus states that Satan was cast out waaaay before 2 Thessalonians was written. Therefore to say Satan is going to be cast down "time, times and half time" CANNOT be correct.

Satan was defeated at the cross...PERIOD!!!

Douggg said:

By bulk of the Church to you mean numbers wise, that there are more Christians total form the past in heaven - than there are presently in the world ? Maybe. But all of those souls currently in heaven, will be reunited with their resurrected bodies when the rapture of the Christians, the living, at the time of the rapture/resurrection takes places.

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What i mean is that only a renmant of the Church (The believers/elect )will still be alive on the Earth when Jesus will come to gather us unto Him at His Coming.When it is said that Jesus will bring with him those who sleep in Jesus when He will descend from Heaven ....that mean that Jesus will come with the SOULS of the dead believers (bulk of the Church in Heaven = SOULS of them who sleep in JESUS) to be resurrected on the Earth ,no coming back to Heaven -only a gathering to meet Jesus in the AIR of the RESURRECTED believers and the REMNANT of the believers/elect still alive unto Jesus' Coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and REMAIN unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Douggg said:

The souls in Revelation 7, are them who become Christians after the resurrection/rapture, and arrive in heaven during the time of the great tribulation

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The souls of those beheaded by the Beast during the great tribulation arrive in heaven in Revelation 15.
Revelation 15
15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Riberra said:

i see that you don't believe that the bulk of the Church is already in Heaven.The bulk of the Church in Heaven is made of all the souls of the believers who have died since Jesus rised 2,000 years ago they are described wearing white garnment.

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You're confusing Revelation 6:9-11 with had happened in Matthew 27:50-53, drawing a hasty conclusion within scriptural support for your theory.

If you don't realize it, your theory, which is illogical, is in direct conflict with Paul's testimony of the resurrection of the dead in Christ during the rapture.

During the rapture, how is Jesus suppose to resurrect the dead in Christ that have died the last 2000 years if they're already in heaven?

Read Revelation 6:9-11 carefully, and don't speculate.













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Douggg said:

What? Paul is the one doing the teaching to them about the resurrection/rapture in 1thessalonians4, ending with...

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In 2Thessalonians2:2, Paul was not mentioning false teachings - but false news. That the day of Christ (great tribulation here on earth) was at hand. ... and they were still here on earth.

The correction of false teachings is in verse 3, and that is on the arrival of the day of Christ, the great tribulation here on earth; which Paul clarified the two things that must take place first.

In 2Thessalonians2, overall, Paul was clarifying his teachings on the resurrection/rapture when it would take place, something not found in 1Thessalonians4 - and that is the rapture takes place before the man of sin is revealed, which in turn is before the Day of the Lord, great tribulation here on earth.


I have never in my entire life heard anyone say the resurrection/rapture has taken place.

"some are claiming Jesus can come at any moment" You need to start being more clear. So, you mean some are claiming Jesus's Second Coming can be at any moment? Or are you meaning that rapture/resurrection could happen "anytime" between now and when it actually does?

The only requirement set forth, timing wise for the resurrection/rapture, is that it happen before the man of sin's act of claiming to be God.

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Dougg said:

In 2Thessalonians2:2, Paul was not mentioning false teachings - but false news. That the day of Christ (great tribulation here on earth) was at hand. ... and they were still here on earth.

Great tribulation is not in the text nor is it a proper definition of Day of Christ! The context of the day of Christ is clearly set by Verse 1, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him. Any insertion of great tribulation here is not based on any reality stated or implied by the text.

False news, false teaching??? False is false.

The correction of false teachings is in verse 3, and that is on the arrival of the day of Christ, the great tribulation here on earth; which Paul clarified the two things that must take place first.

Inserting great tribulation in place of day of Christ is false teaching.

In 2Thessalonians2, overall, Paul was clarifying his teachings on the resurrection/rapture when it would take place, something not found in 1Thessalonians4 - and that is the rapture takes place before the man of sin is revealed, which in turn is before the Day of the Lord, great tribulation here on earth.

Merely repeating over and over the resurrection/ catching up will happen before the man of sin is revealed will never change the reality of what the passage actually says, which is the opposite of what is claimed. To keep saying it, but not showing it in the text of the passage is deceptive. Until one can clearly show it in the text, repetition is meaningless.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140408170619-2461363-say-it-enough-times-and-they-ll-believe-it

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

This verse gives the definition of day of Christ

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

I have not seen even a clue presented the day of Christ in this passage is the great tribulation. The day of Christ is the day He returns (verse 1) not a 7 or 3 ½ year time frame. It is a day, the day He returns. The many scriptures I provided to prove the day of Christ is not what is claimed here. How can it be claimed “day of Christ in 2 Thess 2:2 is great tribulation and everywhere else it is something else?

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This is clear, no amount of distorting it, to make the passage conform to false teaching will work.

I have never in my entire life heard anyone say the resurrection/rapture has taken place.

Then maybe try debating a preterist. I’ve been told His coming and the resurrection happened in 70 AD.

"some are claiming Jesus can come at any moment" You need to start being more clear. So, you mean some are claiming Jesus's Second Coming can be at any moment? Or are you meaning that rapture/resurrection could happen "anytime" between now and when it actually does?

They are one in the same! I’ve been very clear one more coming of the Lord in our future.

The only requirement set forth, timing wise for the resurrection/rapture, is that it happen before the man of sin's act of claiming to be God.

I keep reading that in these posts but as yet none of it is backed up with scripture, without flipping a passage upside down to make it say what is needed.

I only stay with this debate in the hope someone who reads these posts will have enough discernment to recognize what is going on here. Many are far too heavily invested in this false teaching to admit there is even a remote possibility the doctrine is in error.

As justification for my strong words:

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.