A question, continued from TAW...

MentalHolocaust said:

See, I wonder if I ever would have left Orthodoxy if I'd had a spiritual father to talk to... also, there is something that came up that I really, really need to speak with an Orthodox Christian about. I don't want to post it here for fear of ridicule or otherwise, but it has really upset me, and I'd be interested to hear what someone with Orthodox spiritual knowledge has to say.

I appreciate your efforts, Anastasia. I'm nervous as hell about visiting this monastery. I should do it, but...

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truefiction1 said:

You may send me private messages if you want. God willing, I'll answer as well as I can.

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For what it's worth, I thought of offering as well if you'd like to PM me. I didn't only because I thought it might be presumptuous of me. I am relatively new to Orthodoxy (in my third year, though I think I will still rightly say I am "new" at ten years). What I can offer is that I've been pretty intense in seeking the wisdom of others, and incorporating it within an Orthodox mindset as diligently as I am able. So perhaps I might have something to share from them, perhaps not, depending on the question. But I offer, if it may help.

I wish I could promise that there would be no ridicule. And normally folks here are very kind and helpful. But one can't control someone who might even join tomorrow, and so there are no perfect guarantees, so you must do whatever is most beneficial and safe for the sake of your own salvation right now.

You have my prayers, at any rate.

MentalHolocaust said:

To summarize, the point of this thread is the loss of faith, and how long a person should continue seeking God when he is apparently absent.

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Those who seek God do so out of a faith. So what is your faith? If it is not what you think is expressed by "faith" when you say, "I've lost my faith." So it is something but not that thing. I wonder what?

MentalHolocaust said:

I refuse to believe that my illness is in any way spiritual. Like I said, I've had all kind of people pray for me, exorcisms, etc. None of that worked, so either God isn't listening or it isn't spiritual.

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in the Bible and throughout the ages 'possession' did not exclusively mean spiritual anomalies. The nous includes the brain. it includes the mental and intellect, etc.
But with that said, you do not need to seek out God for both of you know where each other can be found., No need to seek Him through esoteric contact, etc. Its just to much work and if you do not know can be a source of quackery.
Utilyse all the tools you already have, whether it be medical, prayer, listening to music, going for a walk on the beach, whatever soothes you. On the other hand avoid as best you can what stresses you.

MentalHolocaust said:

I really can't answer that question. I'm searching. I don't know what to believe. I know what seems likely, but I refuse to commit, because nothing in this universe can be known with certainty, only with probabilities that even themselves will collapse into nothingness with enough examination...

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Why do you want faith, apart from the whole honest search for truth thing that nobody really acts on? what does it do?

MentalHolocaust said:

I don't want faith. I want truth.

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So, I could say some stuff about valuing propositional truth etc. but what Christianity initially did for me was open up the possibility of being a sort of healing vessel to others, and I perceived this to be the most important and beautiful thing. That's what it did for me.

So I think we have some shadow of what a religion would do for us before we express propositions like "I believe in x religion" or "I have faith in x," it is already doing something for us before we believe in it (to paraphrase Niels Bohr it does some work whether or not you believe in it). So what work do you think it might be doing such that you're seeking it out?

MentalHolocaust said:

I haven't deemed myself a pollution to the human genome and to society and offed myself, for one... I mean, I hallucinate constantly, I occasionally lose contact with reality altogether, and on top of it, I'm an insufferable contrarian (if you haven't noticed). I consider everything to be ultimately meaningless and futile, but I still have decided my own life to be worth living. Is that attributable to some outside force? Possibly. Pure logic and reasoning can't ever rule that out. I'm not stupid enough to claim otherwise. But I am looking for something that would paint the idea of a supreme being in a more favorable light than mere possibility. I know you are going to say that everything I just said is that "something," but so far, that's not enough. What will be enough? I really don't know. Nobody in the history of science, mathematics or philosophy has been able to derive God on pure logic and reason, so that's not going to work...

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To believe in God or not is always the choice that is on the table for us. Choose to believe and you will see the miracles all around that evidence that belief. Choose not to believe and you will not believe even if you saw someone rise from the dead.

After a span of 15 to 20 years as an agnostic/atheist I made a slight movement back toward faith in God, and have since been personally blessed with obvious and irrefutable signs that my faith is not in vain. I am by no means worthy of any such blessings: I merely asked for help because of my unbelief. The help came in ways I did not expect.

truefiction1 said:

To believe in God or not is always the choice that is on the table for us. Choose to believe and you will see the miracles all around that evidence that belief. Choose not to believe and you will not believe even if you saw someone rise from the dead.

After a span of 15 to 20 years as an agnostic/atheist I made a slight movement back toward faith in God, and have since been personally blessed with obvious and irrefutable signs that my faith is not in vain. I am by no means worthy of any such blessings: I merely asked for help because of my unbelief. The help came in ways I did not expect.

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In a way that is like what happened to me. I was raised, in a sense, in faith. At times as a result of me seeking it out myself (my mother and grandmother did not go to any church, but my great-grandma did). Still, "education" took its toll, and I'm not sure I could call myself anything better than an agnostic for a period of about 15 years. My "prayer" at that point was pathetic - not faith-filled by any means. I WAS at the end of my proverbial rope, and I called out in desperation, "God, if you are really there, you've GOT to help me!"

I wasn't worthy of anything either. Yet things happened as a result, and in the years that followed, that it would be difficult - extremely difficult - for me to disbelieve in God now. I might have wavered many times over who was right as far as doctrine, but God Himself is simply there, and it would take "evidence" beyond what I can conceive to convince me otherwise.

I hesitate to hold that out to anyone, because I believe that God knows each of us and just what we need, and sometimes what someone else needs might be more or less than I needed. I think, in truth, I must have needed a very great deal, which was maybe why God was so gracious to give it to me. But at times, my immature expectation that He would do for me exactly as He seemed to do for someone else was almost always frustrated. But in the end, He gave me what I needed, though not always what I wanted. And He let me make mistakes along the way and fall into dark pits, to be sure! But at least now I know where one or two of the major pitfalls can be found and hopefully avoid them.

Glory to God for all things!

Orthodoxy can be hard if you have a sensitive disposition and surrounded by people that are very zealous but not supportive.

FWIW, I had similar problems as an Orthodox catechumen. Though I didn't know it at the time, I had a mild form of autism and I'm a sensitive, nervous type of person. I ended up in a mental hospital once because of it. The cops came in a cruiser and took me away because I threw a coffee cup across a fast food restaurant after a family member made an insensitive remark. It was after a Lenten service and I was feeling terrible on the inside, like a ton of bricks were weighing on my chest. I wanted so badly to receive the sacraments but my priest had rebuffed my desire to enter the church weeks earlier- I lacked "enthusiasm" he said. Many orthodox priests and laity are not nearly compassionate enough to realize the burdens they can lay on people. If Orthodoxy is medicine, it needs to be kept in mind that many medicines in the right dosage are toxic.

After that incident, I left the church for a few years and got on with my life. Later, I thought about returning to a Christian church but I went back and my priest had told me that because I am poor and I cannot marry my significant other (we are both disabled and that is an impediment to civil marriage), he cannot receive me into the Church because I am living in sin. I was floored by his legalism and lack of compassion, but looking back, it does fit with the pattern of legalism and perfectionism I witnessed. I have since thought about complaining to his bishop about the whole incident. I am gratified that several orthodox churches have started to address issues of spiritual abuse, I believe it is a serious issue in Orthodoxy and enough has not been done.

I do still miss Orthodox worship and prayer, but I don't miss the legalism or the horrible burdens that well-meaning but ignorant people can put on you. I am not exactly sure how to be a Christian anymore, except to hold on to hope. Going to a Lutheran church is like comparing crumbs of bread to a whole dinner. But, at least that junk food, as meager as it is, doesn't cause me to go insane and it helps center my life on Jesus Christ.

Don't let a bunch of labels terrorize you. I was shocked to learn during my neuropsychological examination for autism that I had paranoia. I never thought of myself as a paranoid type person. It probably came from psychological trauma and spiritual abuse over the years. Those kinds of things don't go away on their own quickly short of a miracle.

A book that helped me a long time ago was The Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Manning. He is a Catholic so I don't know if that matters to you. It got me to look at things in a different light. So much of Christian theology and piety is for people full of themselves, but if you are already tore down, a lot of it can be the sort of thing you don't need to hear. And many clergy and other Christians are not necessarily good at picking up on this.

I have seen our church try to take in the homeless in coordination with a respected shelter but suffer property damage in the process. Additionally, I have witnessed a person with mental problems in our church who moves like a nomad from apartments to shelters within the social welfare system. One time I helped one of our elderly parishioners move this person and the elderly man was losing his breath doing so (he & his wife have repeatedly helped this lost soul). There are no wrong individuals in the examples I have given and I know of other parishioners who have lost young sons and daughters to cancer or suicides. The church I know is has its positives and negatives, but it also consists of plenty of people who often suffer too.

FireDragon76 said:

Orthodoxy can be hard if you have a sensitive disposition and surrounded by people that are very zealous but not supportive.

FWIW, I had similar problems as an Orthodox catechumen. Though I didn't know it at the time, I had a mild form of autism and I'm a sensitive, nervous type of person. I ended up in a mental hospital once because of it. The cops came in a cruiser and took me away because I threw a coffee cup across a fast food restaurant after a family member made an insensitive remark. It was after a Lenten service and I was feeling terrible on the inside, like a ton of bricks were weighing on my chest. I wanted so badly to receive the sacraments but my priest had rebuffed my desire to enter the church weeks earlier- I lacked "enthusiasm" he said. Many orthodox priests and laity are not nearly compassionate enough to realize the burdens they can lay on people. If Orthodoxy is medicine, it needs to be kept in mind that many medicines in the right dosage are toxic.

After that incident, I left the church for a few years and got on with my life. Later, I thought about returning to a Christian church but I went back and my priest had told me that because I am poor and I cannot marry my significant other (we are both disabled and that is an impediment to civil marriage), he cannot receive me into the Church because I am living in sin. I was floored by his legalism and lack of compassion, but looking back, it does fit with the pattern of legalism and perfectionism I witnessed. I have since thought about complaining to his bishop about the whole incident. I am gratified that several orthodox churches have started to address issues of spiritual abuse, I believe it is a serious issue in Orthodoxy and enough has not been done.

I do still miss Orthodox worship and prayer, but I don't miss the legalism or the horrible burdens that well-meaning but ignorant people can put on you. I am not exactly sure how to be a Christian anymore, except to hold on to hope. Going to a Lutheran church is like comparing crumbs of bread to a whole dinner. But, at least that junk food, as meager as it is, doesn't cause me to go insane and it helps center my life on Jesus Christ.

Don't let a bunch of labels terrorize you. I was shocked to learn during my neuropsychological examination for autism that I had paranoia. I never thought of myself as a paranoid type person. It probably came from psychological trauma and spiritual abuse over the years. Those kinds of things don't go away on their own quickly short of a miracle.

A book that helped me a long time ago was The Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Manning. He is a Catholic so I don't know if that matters to you. It got me to look at things in a different light. So much of Christian theology and piety is for people full of themselves, but if you are already tore down, a lot of it can be the sort of thing you don't need to hear. And many clergy and other Christians are not necessarily good at picking up on this.

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FireDragon, I don't want to risk being hurtful, but perhaps there is something that can be done. I don't understand why being disabled is an impediment to a civil marriage, but would it not be possible to be received into the Church and have a sacramental one?

I can't say as I would consider it spiritual abuse or legalism to delay a person's reception into the Church if they were openly and unrepentantly living with a partner not their spouse and having sexual relations without the benefit of marriage. I agree that there ought to be some sensitivity and pastoral response, but frankly, from the priest's point of view, I think he would be doing such a person a favor. It would not be a good idea to receive the Eucharist when living in such a serious position, and his responsibility is for your soul. I can imagine the bishop would agree.

If you can move past your hurt (and I pray you can), you might be able to find a solution to your problem, with the priest's help. I mean this sincerely, and in love and compassion, but spiritually this is something that should be addressed.

God bless you and have mercy on you and help you.

Please forgive me if I offend.

~Anastasia~ said:

FireDragon, I don't want to risk being hurtful, but perhaps there is something that can be done. I don't understand why being disabled is an impediment to a civil marriage

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My partner would lose all her social security if she did so, and since she is legally blind that would be a significant issue. The process to re-apply for SSDI or SSI is not easy. So we went down and got a civil partnership with the county we live in, that way we can at least have some rights while we remain where we live.

The Lutheran pastor at the current church we attend understands these things: some elderly couples in his congregation face the same issues with marriage, even though they love each other and are committed to each other, they simply cannot afford to marry. It is not a barrier to acceptance at most mainline Protestant churches. It doesn't mean he thinks it's a good situation we are in, it means he withholds condemnation and recognizes the good things in our relationship and how we are trying to live as best we can. We are all living in a fallen world after all, it's not easy to say what is the right or wrong thing for any individual to do.

but would it not be possible to be received into the Church and have a sacramental one?

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No. In some states that's actually illegal, in fact.

It's interesting the Orthodox priest was willing to pray for us, and he said we could attend the parish and worship. But due to our relationship, we could not receive the sacraments. He encouraged us to explore other churches to attend.

I can't say as I would consider it spiritual abuse or legalism to delay a person's reception into the Church if they were openly and unrepentantly living with a partner

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I see that as pharisaical to judge someone's repentance merely by how much they can conform to external behaviors. That's very superficial and petty, and goes against the best examples of Orthodox saints (look up the Holy Fools some time). As an orthodox Christian, I was never under the impression that sort of thing was Christ-like.

I agree that there ought to be some sensitivity and pastoral response, but frankly, from the priest's point of view, I think he would be doing such a person a favor.

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Probably, but that seems like part of the problem right there. It reflects a shallow theology.

I struggled a long time from this, how to separate out the shame and hurt I felt from my perception of God. For a while, I did everything I could to try to find some reason to disbelieve in God. I was angry at God. It definitely hurt my relationship with God and with my S.O. Words and actions can hurt, even if we think we are above those sorts of things. Especially when somebody I used to trust and look up to, representing an institution I used to uncritically accept as being divinely ordained, tells us that we are unacceptable, and defines our relationship in terms of sin and depravity.

Morning all,
Fire, I've known one couple in similar predicament where a legal marriage would mess up their SSID and housing and everything else (both were living in a nursing home but they were in their 20s and physically handicapped). Our LCMS pastor was unable to "officially" assist because of legal obligations on him by the state for marriages, but he did find them an independent minister to marry them completely off the legal record. Your priest might be under the same dilemma of a conflict between church and state obligations. I doubt these are things that clergy are taught how to handle in seminary. This is one of the reasons why I sometimes question if the state should be involved with what is traditionally a religious act, and then separate the legal implications of a marriage into a state-recognized marriage.

That would be one of the good things that could come about from the issue of the legality of same-sex marriage. Personally, I think sacramental marriage and the state ought not be connected (necessarily) anyway.

Fire, have you thought about contacting the Bishop on the details, to see if it might be possible? I don't know where you live (and probably wouldn't know the laws there anyway), but I suggested it because I do know one couple who have solved the problem in this way (marriage in a church, but not civilly recorded).

It's a shame when state laws concerning such things force people financially to have to arrange their lives in a particular way.

I'm guessing the civil partnership you did file would not satisfy the priest? I'm not sure what the differences are.

~Anastasia~ said:

Fire, have you thought about contacting the Bishop on the details, to see if it might be possible? I don't know where you live (and probably wouldn't know the laws there anyway), but I suggested it because I do know one couple who have solved the problem in this way (marriage in a church, but not civilly recorded).

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I have thought about doing so. The priest contacted the bishop at one point we were both attending more regularly, and the bishop basically told the priest it was his call.

I suspect the priest is spiritually burnt out. It's just a vibe I got from paying attention to him. He seems to have a perfectionistic tendency. Perhaps in the end it was difficult to sympathize.

It's a shame when state laws concerning such things force people financially to have to arrange their lives in a particular way.

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Yes. I think part of the issue is that so much of society has changed in even the past 50-100 years. Expectations are different, the ways people live even are different. Disabled people are not simply happy to be warehoused and forgotten, or to live as beggars, and most people recognize a duty to help people live more fulfilling lives. But we live in a "not quite there yet" place where the consciousness is still lower than it should be.

I'm guessing the civil partnership you did file would not satisfy the priest? I'm not sure what the differences are.

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No. He didn't seem to think that meant anything at all, spiritually.

I never expected praise or to be held up as a model Orthodox Christian. I just wanted the chance to go and worship God in only way I knew how to do so, without feeling shunned. And receiving communion wouldn't have been so much of an issue anyways- I developed digestive problems several years ago and I don't eat wheat anyways (it's much wores with casein or milk, even a tiny amount gives me problems). For a while I thought I had celiac sprue but the tests were inconclusive, even if some of the symptoms were there. The Lutheran pastor at the church I go to lets me receive communion just by drinking from the chalice (I don't like most gluten-free wafers, they just don't taste good). I was content with the potential to receive the other mysteries of the Church.

I am still not content in the Lutheran church... it's just too different. I do love the people there, particularly the pastor (who doesn't seem the least bit cynical or burned out). And the preaching is good, but... the worship leaves a lot to be desired. The language used in most of the prayers is just pedestrian and bland (it's an ELCA church), and the lack of prayers for the departed and the saints is something I miss. I also miss walking around during the service and lighting candles and praying. It just feels so passive in comparison to sit in a pew, like its bound to generate anxiety. I like to be able to move about freely.

I really wanted to try to help Mental/Seraphim, just by pointing out the Christian life can be a struggle, and sometimes... a priest is not the best place to go for help. They are only human beings, not gurus.

Years ago I had the same struggle with medications that Mental has- none of them brought real improvement. I had depression too, it's very common with people with high functioning autism. I don't even use medication now days that much, except an occasional sleeping pill. I've found acupuncture helpful some, as well as yoga and getting enough sunlight and vitamin D.

Medication is not a cure-all, and it's easy to fall into despair when you take these things and they do little or nothing. But it's a very normal experience and isn't a reason to give up hope. Sometimes, the wrong combinations can even make things worse. I was starting to become psychotically depressed taking Bupropion (Wellbutrin), until they lowered the dosage - antidepressants can potentially do that. It was like the ruminations in my head had the volume turned up, to the point I could almost hear them.

A good therapist is also something needed. I worked with one woman that brought a lot of relief, finally, after suffering through mediocre therapists off and on for years. She specialized in trauma and PTSD, and had worked mostly with women in the past. We did play therapy that normally only kids do, and we also used an approach called Mindsight, an approach developed by the neuropsychologist Daniel Siegel. She also recommended I read a book by Viktor Frankl called Man's Quest for Meaning. All those things were very grounding and they helped me realized I was limiting my thinking and emotional regulation by buying into bad message fed to me by parents and the wider culture. She also encouraged me to explore finding purpose and meaning beyond religious orthodoxies, while acknowledging the positive role of spirituality.

I would also second the idea of seeking spiritual healing and prayer, and add the necessity of commitment to living a balanced life with positive influences that bring stability and routine. And forget listening to anybody that demands your trust without earning it.

Faith has to be something you personally lay claim to, no priest can just give it to you without your personal involvement, and no argument for God's existence will make you believe something you don't want to.

I wish I could help both of you more directly, other than just through prayer.

While our priest is wonderful, and what I know of others they are too, it is not reasonable to expect every priest to be able to be everything to everyone in every situation at all times. Maybe he is/was burned out, as you thought, or not well-versed on this issue, or for some other reason just wasn't able to do the best in the situation.

Is there another Church? Or could you try again? It sounds like some time has passed? If nothing else, a full explanation to the Bishop ought not be out of place - not to get the priest in trouble, but just to get help the priest might not be able to give you.

By the way, I don't wish to gossip, but I know of a person who does live with a partner unmarried, for whatever reason. This person attends Church, lights candles, prays, worships, comes to events outside of Liturgy, has pastoral support from their priest, and basically participates fully in the Church, except for receiving the Eucharist. (I don't know their status re:Confession - not at all my business). I suppose it's going to depend on the parishioners and priest as to how well this works, but this person has long been known and is very humble, kind, and helpful, and no one seems to object to or condemn in any way, nor is there any gossip.

I'm not saying you should do this, because I think ideally the situation should be worked out. Before God being more important even than before the Church, but we have no other actual physical avenue on earth. What I mean is - I am in no way willing to judge God's mercy or second-guess His judgement. But if I were in your position, it would be important to me to try to work things out to satisfaction as much as possible.

(I can actually sympathize a little - I divorced and remarried. While neither of my marriages were in the Orthodox Church and so not "sacramental" in that sense, and while the Orthodox Church DOES allow remarriage - I have trouble accepting the situation sometimes. And there are those who don't accept my situation among both Catholics and Protestants and consider me as living in adultery - so I can sympathize at least a little.)

That doesn't surprise me. I know of another disabled Orthodox Christian that lives with another disabled individual, and they are not married. Unlike me, they were fully received into the Church. I'm not sure they bother going to church anymore, either.

In my experience, disabled people tend to gravitate towards finding each other in love, so this is not an isolated issue.

I don't think its gossip. We aren't naming names, nor do I see any shame or character flaws attached to being poor, disabled, and wanting the benefits of a partner or spouse. It's a failure of the clergy and laity to come up with compassionate solutions, not individuals.

I found my current S.O. through prayer, BTW. I remember one time feeling so alone, laying in bed in anguishing living with my parents and hating every minute of it. I was truly in hell. I just prayed, Jesus, don't let me live the rest of my life alone. Give me somebody I can love. And it eventually happened. We were friends, and had lost contact with each other, and the chances we met again were too strange to be coincidence.