The Mystery of Pauls Writings

Daniel Gregg

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The word ἡ δικαιοσύνη the abstract concept of "what is just or right."

You are engaging in logical fallacy in attempting to separate δικαιοσύνη from the gloss "justice" (cf. BDAG, 3rd, definition #1, "the quality, state, or practice of judicial responsibility w. focus on fairness: justice." Def #2 "quality or state of juridicial correctness with focus on redemptive action: righteousness" Def #3: upright behaviour. You have to go all the way to def #3 for your view.

δίκῃ was unsuitable because it means a particular kind of justice: punishment. Paul wanted to focus on God deciding justice as a judge, i.e. weighing different options, guity, acquitted, guilty then pardoned, guilty then sentenced. Therefore a more abstract term is proper.


The verb δικαιοῦμαι means "to be declared just or right"

That is not the primary definition in Koine Greek, which is 1a. to decide justice, 1b. to administrate justice. BDAG 3rd, def. 1 "to take up a legal cause: show justice, do justice"


In legal terms, it has to do with the person who wins the case, who is declared to be "in the right" when making his claim. In religious terms, it means that someone is decided to be in right standing with God. A person who is declared δίκαιος is the opposite of someone who is declared ἄδικος "unjust" or "who does what is wrong."

And this is exactly why it is wrong for Paul. A sinner cannot be justified in this sense, but only found guilty and then pardoned or sentenced.


Paul says that all of our good deeds are like filthy rags before God

I don't remember him saying that. Where did you get this?


the state of being declared 'in the right'") could only be attained by faith in the deeds of Jesus and not in the deeds that you could perform on your own

Not even Paul agrees with you here.

ESV Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified

Nor James.

KJG James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

ESV James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"-- and he was called a friend of God.



This is Pauline theology.

Not it isn't. It is only what the fallen Church says after corrupting the translation and interpretations.

A guilty person cannot be justified -- declared right. That is lawlessness, a fundamental perversion of justice.
 
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yonah_mishael

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You are engaging in logical fallacy in attempting to separate δικαιοσύνη from the gloss "justice" (cf. BDAG, 3rd, definition #1, "the quality, state, or practice of judicial responsibility w. focus on fairness: justice." Def #2 "quality or state of juridicial correctness with focus on redemptive action: righteousness" Def #3: upright behaviour. You have to go all the way to def #3 for your view.

Oh, well, in that case! "All the way down to definition number three!" This is not a reasonable dismissal.

δίκῃ was unsuitable because it means a particular kind of justice: punishment. Paul wanted to focus on God deciding justice as a judge, i.e. weighing different options, guity, acquitted, guilty then pardoned, guilty then sentenced. Therefore a more abstract term is proper.

I'm not sure why you put the word δίκη in the dative suddenly. I understand that it refers to bringing someone to justice or judgment. I gave that example in what I wrote. Why did you just delete it and ignore it? You didn't address τὸ δίκαιον either.

That is not the primary definition in Koine Greek, which is 1a. to decide justice, 1b. to administrate justice. BDAG 3rd, def. 1 "to take up a legal cause: show justice, do justice"

You're looking at the active definition, obviously. I've given the passive form. Care to try again?

And this is exactly why it is wrong for Paul. A sinner cannot be justified in this sense, but only found guilty and then pardoned or sentenced.

I assume that a sinner can be justified by any means that God establishes. Doesn't seem like a good reason to reject the obvious meaning of the term.

I don't remember him saying that. Where did you get this?

Paul wrote a long string of quotes in Romans 4 to state unequivocally that all men are sinful and that their "righteousness" is nothing before God. It was my mistake that I recalled Paul as having included Isaiah 64:6 in that list. He didn't use those exact words, but he used similar expressions:

There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.
The poison of vipers is on their lips.
Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Not even Paul agrees with you here.

ESV Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified

Yes, Paul lays that down as a principle, and he believed it was true. You're missing the minor premise of the argument here!

(1) Those who fulfill the law will be justified by it.
(2) No one can fulfill the law.
Therefore, (3) No one is justified by the law.

That's Paul's argument, which is going completely over your head. Yes, he laid down as a principle that anyone who keeps the law will be justified - but he also laid down that "no one is righteous" and that "Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin" (Romans 4:9, NIV). You're missing key parts of the argument and thinking that Paul is saying the opposite of what he really meant.

Nor James.

KJG James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

ESV James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"-- and he was called a friend of God.

James is not Paul. I refrain from being dragged onto a tangent.

Not it isn't. It is only what the fallen Church says after corrupting the translation and interpretations.

A guilty person cannot be justified -- declared right. That is lawlessness, a fundamental perversion of justice.

The whole message of the gospel is that while people were sinners and guilty before God, Jesus died for them in order to make them righteous. If you think otherwise, you've misunderstood the entirety of the New Testament - not just Paul.
 
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Daniel Gregg

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This is not a reasonable dismissal.


Point is that my explanation makes judicial sense. Yours does not. So dismissing your choice is based a contextual explanation that does make sense.


You didn't address τὸ δίκαιον either.

I don't have to address words not in the text. Only prove they may mean what I am saying. You conceeded all that. The context proves the case because you don't have an explanation that makes legal sense. You cannot declare the guilty righteous.
You're looking at the active definition, obviously. I've given the passive form. Care to try again?

You are confusing semantics with grammar again. To administer justice vs. to be administered justice. Look at def. #2, justify. He justified the other guy (active). He was justified (passive). Why would you assume that the first definition cannot be used in the passive? Grammar does not tell us what is impossible when an example is not acknowledged. It tells us what is possible when a speaker wants to say something. It tells the user what he can do.

1. Assume: Actual example does not exist
2. Therefore: it is impossible to say it

= begging the question.

That's a vicious circle. You don't want Paul to say what agrees with correct judicial procedure.
Therefore he can't say it.

I assume that a sinner can be justified by any means that God establishes.

God is not a either a liar or blind. Forgiveness does not need alien righteousness imputed. And your are forgetting that this is aimed at perfectly equitable justice. That does not just require a punitive penalty. It requires perfect compensation, i.e. all the evil effects of sin have to be reversed and undone as if they never happened. That's the only way to have perfect justice. Undo all the suffering caused by each sin compensated for. This is impossible of course. So God cannot be paid off. It is logically impossible.


There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.
Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.
The poison of vipers is on their lips.
Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.
There is no fear of God before their eyes.


That's Romans 3. I knew that was the idea you were aiming at. Just wanted you to say it. But what you are giving is is the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 3, which perhaps the only one you know. Try looking all those quotes of in their Tenach passages and see what the context is. Every one of these is about wicked Israelites (or Jews) vs. the righteous, often David, complaining about it, i.e. the class of "no one who does good" is a subset of Israel and not the whole of it. Paul's point is simple. Israel was just as evil as a nation and had just as many evil people in it as other nations. Therefore the idea that circumcision saves or that being Jewish is a ticket to heaven is disproved. That was the first century version of once saved always saved. Then it was: born a Jew and circumcised means you are saved. A lot of Jews still act like this and believe like this. It is the Jewish equivalent of Calvinism, being one of the "chosen." It's no different than Lutherans that believed they are saved because they were baptized, until you open your eyes and find at what rotten morals Lutherans have. That's the reason Paul quoted those texts, to show how rotten Jews have been.


Yes, Paul lays that down as a principle

Exactly what anti-torah Christians claim about this passage. Try reconciling that with Romans 2:6-7. No it is not just a principle. I may have quoted the KJV, but the proper translation is "the doers of the law will be righteous"


James is not Paul. I refrain from being dragged onto a tangent.

Yeh I know, you don't want to reconcile torah to Paul or anyone in the NT with anyone else in the NT.


The whole message of the gospel is that while people were sinners and guilty before God, Jesus died for them in order to make them righteous. If you think otherwise, you've misunderstood the entirety of the New Testament - not just Paul.

You are equivocating. Yes he died to make them righteous, but not declare them righteous before they are, and certainly not to declare the guilty innocent.
 
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yonah_mishael

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Well, I think we've gone about as far as we will be able to with any civility and sense. I think the readers are clear about our divergent positions and will be able to decide for themselves what they agree with. Good night.
 
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