Pacifism Question

Caretaker

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I don't mean to offend, and this is an honest question (not a bait): In the understanding of "nonresistance" what would an Anabaptist woman do in a situation where she was trying to be raped?

Did you really intend to word the question the way you did? The woman is trying to be raped, i.e., trying to encourage a rapist?

I'll assume that's not what you meant.

Joan Baez (not an Anabaptist) had an excellent series of answers for that type of question. Basically she said if people can make up a situation then she can make up an answer.

So, perhaps she would reason with the rapist, tell him about Jesus, and the rapist would be saved, and so would she. That's my attempt at an adaptation of the Joan Baez style answer.
 
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98cwitr

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Did you really intend to word the question the way you did? The woman is trying to be raped, i.e., trying to encourage a rapist?

I'll assume that's not what you meant.

Joan Baez (not an Anabaptist) had an excellent series of answers for that type of question. Basically she said if people can make up a situation then she can make up an answer.

So, perhaps she would reason with the rapist, tell him about Jesus, and the rapist would be saved, and so would she. That's my attempt at an adaptation of the Joan Baez style answer.

Oh no...I mean someone was trying to force themselves onto her. I just wanted to present an extreme scenario to see where, if any, lines were drawn in respect to "nonresistance."
 
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Caretaker

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Oh no...I mean someone was trying to force themselves onto her. I just wanted to present an extreme scenario to see where, if any, lines were drawn in respect to "nonresistance."

Christ said that his followers will obey his commandments and strive to be like him. So, the question for the Christian is, "Where would Christ 'draw the line'"? Or, in other words, "What would Jesus do?" We have his example to lead us. He was crucified. Stephen was stoned. All the disciples except John were killed (Peter was crucified upside down because he felt unworthy to die as his Lord had died), and John died in prison.
 
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Caretaker

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In sticky situations where people were trying to apprehend Him before the appointed time, Jesus fled. Jesus often did not walk around alone either though.

When Peter drew his sword and cut off the ear of the high priest's servant in an effort to defend Jeus when Jesus was arrested Jesus told Peter to put away his sword, healed the ear of the high priest's servant, and told Peter that all who live by the sword die by the sword.

What does that mean: all who live by the sword die by the sword? Certainly not all soldiers are ultimately killed in battle. We know many soldiers who survive battle and die peacefully in their sleep many years later.

So, was Christ uninformed? Was he a liar?

Neither.

When Christ said those who live by the sword die by the sword the death he was referring to was not a physical death. But those who take up the sword are violating Jesus' commandments to love and do good to their enemies. Entrance to heaven is not gained by thumbing one's nose at the commandments of the Son of God. The death Jesus spoke of was a spiritual death. It's use is the same as in the passage where Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead. Again, the people who he was referring to were the spiritually dead.
 
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FaithfulPilgrim

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I want to be an Anabaptist, but I am unsure about nonresistance. I feel that doctrine should be a personal conviction rather than the official belief of a Christian denomination. (Is denomination the right word for Anabaptists?)

How do Anabaptists explain Jesus driving out moneychangers wirh a whip or the Roman soldier who came to Jesus and Jesus never told him to give up his job?
 
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ValleyGal

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Being pacifist does not mean you can't express your indignation or righteous anger. Jesus demonstrated righteous anger in the teple with the moneychangers. But he did not resist arrest, he did not resist his "trial" or his execution, even though the whole thing was little more than a big scandal and he was innocent.

The moneychangers were doing business in the temple, and that is a great misuse of the temple. At that time it was a holy place, not to be used for business - especially crooked business. But a soldier is a soldier, and it was his job. I am not sure about the history of pacifism, but for my denomination (Mennonite), we discourage wars and fighting in wars, but we also know they happen and some people have to fight in them. But we believe wars can and should be mitigated peacefully instead.

Denominations - there are various denominations in the Anabaptist umbrella - Amish, Mennonite, Hutterite, Brethren to name the main ones.
 
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SkyWriting

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I want to be an Anabaptist, but I am unsure about nonresistance. I feel that doctrine should be a personal conviction rather than the official belief of a Christian denomination. (Is denomination the right word for Anabaptists?)

How do Anabaptists explain Jesus driving out moneychangers wirh a whip or the Roman soldier who came to Jesus and Jesus never told him to give up his job?

Anabaptist just means you don't accept that infant baptism
as a valid form of baptism, so you perform a second baptism.
Ana - baptism

My family affiliation is Church of the Brethren and pacifism is optional.
Everything is optional.
 
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Caretaker

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I want to be an Anabaptist, but I am unsure about nonresistance. I feel that doctrine should be a personal conviction rather than the official belief of a Christian denomination. (Is denomination the right word for Anabaptists?)

How do Anabaptists explain Jesus driving out moneychangers wirh a whip or the Roman soldier who came to Jesus and Jesus never told him to give up his job?

Hmm...... you want to be an Anabaptist?? Why?? What is it that you like about being an Anabaptist?

How about, "Lord I want to be like Jesus, in my heart, in my heart ... "

Our need for social cohesiveness and support motivates us to seek like-minded others. But searching for those who truly want to be like Jesus among today's professing Christians is a daunting challenge indeed. Virtually all have redefined Jesus to suit themselves. They pick and choose among the verses of the Bible, looking for what suits their world view and rejecting the rest.

Might I be guilty of this also? Sure! But here's where I strive to be different: I openly invite questions and corrections and strive to deal honestly with those questions and corrections, basing all on the word of God. And while many others say the same, I guess, "... the proof of the pudding is in the eating".

Jesus told us that the door to heaven is narrow and not many will enter by it, but the road to hell is wide. He told us that many who believe they will get to heaven are sadly mistaken. He said on the judgment day he will call such people "evil doers" and will tell them to get away from him.

So, what part of "nonresistance" do you not understand - or is it more accurately phrased, do you not want to understand?

Turn the other cheek?

Go the extra mile?

If someone demands your coat give him your shirt also?

Love your neighbor as yourself?

Love and do good to your enemies?

With regard to using a whip of cords to drive the money changers from the temple and upsetting their tables, since Jesus told us clearly that his true followers will strive to be like him, if/when we find money changers in the temple and feel God is calling us to follow Jesus' example then we should. All the while realizing, of course, that is just one of the acts that led to Jesus' crucifixion, and may lead to similar results for us.

But with regard to your statement about Jesus and the Roman soldier, i.e., " ... and he never told him to give up his job ", are you sure Jesus never said that?

Surely you don't imagine that each and every word that Jesus said is recorded in the Bible, do you?

Jesus very well may have told the soldier to give up his job. From historians we know that it was common for Roman soldiers who converted to Christianity to give up their jobs.

But we are not to follow what others did or do. Instead we're supposed to follow Jesus' commandments. Jesus told us clearly that those who love him follow his commandments and those who don't love him don't follow his commandments.

I don't see that it's possible to both love and do good to one's enemies while slaughtering them.

Do you?
 
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farout

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Hmm...... you want to be an Anabaptist?? Why?? What is it that you like about being an Anabaptist?

How about, "Lord I want to be like Jesus, in my heart, in my heart ... "

Our need for social cohesiveness and support motivates us to seek like-minded others. But seeking for those who truly want to be like Jesus among today's professing Christians is a daunting challenge indeed. Virtually all have redefined Jesus to suit themselves. They pick and choose among the verses of the Bible, looking for what suits their world view and rejecting the rest.

Might I be guilty of this also? Sure! But here's where I strive to be different: I openly invite questions and corrections and strive to deal honestly with those questions and corrections, basing all on the word of God. And while many others say the same, I guess, "... the proof of the pudding is in the eating".

Jesus told us that the door to heaven is narrow and not many will enter by it, but the road to hell is wide. He told us that many who believe they will get to heaven are sadly mistaken. He said on the judgment day he will call such people "evil doers" and will tell them to get away from him.

So, what part of "nonresistance" do you not understand - or is it more accurately phrased, do you not want to understand?

Turn the other cheek?

Go the extra mile?

If someone demands your coat give him your shirt also?

Love your neighbor as yourself?

Love and do good to your enemies?

With regard to using a whip of cords to drive the money changers from the temple and upsetting their tables, since Jesus told us clearly that his true followers will strive to be like him, if/when we find money changers in the temple and feel God is calling us to follow Jesus' example then we should. All the while realizing, of course, is that is just one of the acts that led to Jesus' crucifixion, and may lead to similar results for us.

But with regard to your statement about Jesus and the Roman soldier, i.e., " ... and he never told him to give up his job ", are you sure Jesus never said that?

Surely you don't imagine that each and every word that Jesus said is recorded in the Bible, do you?

Jesus very well may have told the soldier to give up his job. From historians we know that it was common for Roman soldiers who converted to Christianity to give up their jobs.

But we are not to follow what others did or do. Instead we're supposed to follow Jesus' commandments. Jesus told us clearly that those who love him follow his commandments and those who don't love him don't follow his commandments.

I don't see that it's possible to both love and do good to one's enemies while slaughtering them.

Do you?


I will jump in for a minuet here, are you wanting opinions or are you wanting a debate or just some dialogue about while defending ones self from a enemy?
 
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FaithfulPilgrim

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Well, I mean I have great respect for the Anabaptist faith even though I think they are too dogmatic on some issues like nonresistance and, among the more conservative ones, communal living.

I am Protestant, but I see a lot of worldiness in Christians from just about every Christian group, and the Anabaptists seem to he the only ones genuinely trying to follow Christ even if I feel they take some stances too far.

Another reason is that I feel like Protestants put too much emphasis on faith, and not enough about discipleship. Now I don't think Protestants intentionally teach easy believism, but it comes across like that.

I asked about the nonresistance because what if someone broke into my house or wanted to kill me? I also plan to take martial arts classes soon, so I want to know if an Anabaptist could practice martial arts.

One more thing, it seems Anabaptists are opposed to Calvinism because of persecution. I am a moderate Calvinist, disagreeing with mainstram Calvinism on things like limited atonement and double predestination, I also think they fall into that easy believism trap like many Protestants do.

How well would I fit in?
 
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ValleyGal

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How well you fit in would depend on the denomination. Mennonite Brethren (in my area of the world) have no problem practicing martial arts - but more as a means of keeping in shape and learning self discipline. Non-resistance does not mean not defending your home and family. But in my area, again, we have recourse for that - 911. In my area, we do not practice communal living, but we do believe in a strong community (church). While the people from my church don't necessarily call me up to hang out together, I do know that I can count on them, that they care about me, and that they have embraced my conversion.

Calvinism...I'm not so sure we oppose it because of persecution so much as because that is not how we interpret scripture. We believe that everyone is "God's elect" because his will is that ALL should come to knowledge of him through Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2). So for us, it's about how we interpret scripture as a whole, and the emphasis we place on certain concepts.

There are some Anabaptist denominations who are more "dogmatic" I suppose, like maybe Hutterites and Amish. I'm not familiar with them and think someone else is more equipped to answer to that.

How well would you fit in would likely be determined by attending, talking to the pastor, reading statements of faith for the various denominations, etc.
 
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WayneinMaine

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Anabaptism is not a stricter, less worldly version of Protestantism. It is as fundamentally different from Protestantism as Protestantism is from Catholicism. To suggest that one could be “Anabaptist” and not be non-resistant would be like a Roman Catholic converting to a Baptist and still praying the rosary.

Fundamentally Anabaptism is about following after Jesus, obeying all He commanded. That indeed requires that we love our enemies, that we not resist an evil person, and perhaps, as the original Anabaptist understood Jesus’ teachings, that we have “all things common”. The good news Anabaptists believe in is that God’s kingdom is within reach, that it is among us, and that we can be enabled to be a part of it by choosing to do what Jesus taught us to do.

Though the fact is there are many (ethnic) Mennonite groups which have assimilated enough Protestant ideas that a zealous, patriotic, American Fundamentalist Baptist would be comfortable with them. Some Mennonites have so assimilated Reformed Protestant theology that their ancient persecutors would be declare victory. In the end these denominations, having lost the anchor that kept them separated from the world, drift into the kind of worldliness from which you want to flee.
 
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Caretaker

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Anabaptism is not a stricter, less worldly version of Protestantism. It is as fundamentally different from Protestantism as Protestantism is from Catholicism. To suggest that one could be “Anabaptist” and not be non-resistant would be like a Roman Catholic converting to a Baptist and still praying the rosary.

Fundamentally Anabaptism is about following after Jesus, obeying all He commanded. That indeed requires that we love our enemies, that we not resist an evil person, and perhaps, as the original Anabaptist understood Jesus’ teachings, that we have “all things common”. The good news Anabaptists believe in is that God’s kingdom is within reach, that it is among us, and that we can be enabled to be a part of it by choosing to do what Jesus taught us to do.

Though the fact is there are many (ethnic) Mennonite groups which have assimilated enough Protestant ideas that a zealous, patriotic, American Fundamentalist Baptist would be comfortable with them. Some Mennonites have so assimilated Reformed Protestant theology that their ancient persecutors would be declare victory. In the end these denominations, having lost the anchor that kept them separated from the world, drift into the kind of worldliness from which you want to flee.
In short, most Anabaptists have gone the way of most of the rest of "Christendom".
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Re several questions, but mostly for those seeking true and faithful testimony , a life tested and proven over decades faithful to Jesus,
see at your convenience ( seekers seeking seek and keep seeking every day)
the youtube (not entertainment) found using search terms > Corrie ten Boom Surrender
and separately > Corrie ten Boom How to Forgive


realize that God says to seek first ((and only)(highest single hearted priority)(purely and blamelessly) ) His Kingdom
and that everyone who seeks Him and doesn't give up seeking Him will find Him
and
if anyone seeks anything else, that is what they will find instead.
 
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Basil the Great

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Pacifism is a most difficult road to embrace. I once claimed to be a pacifist in my youthful days and still have pacifist leanings, though I no longer claim to be a pacifist. Nevertheless, I think it is fairly safe to say that the vast majority of the Early Church, especially prior to 180 A.D. and even probably up to 300 A.D., was opposed to armed combat for the State. Having said that, I doubt very much that many Christians back then would have stood by and let the loved ones be raped or murdered.
 
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Pacifism is a most difficult road to embrace. I once claimed to be a pacifist in my youthful days and still have pacifist leanings, though I no longer claim to be a pacifist. Nevertheless, I think it is fairly safe to say that the vast majority of the Early Church, especially prior to 180 A.D. and even probably up to 300 A.D., was opposed to armed combat for the State. Having said that, I doubt very much that many Christians back then would have stood by and let the loved ones be raped or murdered.

The door to heaven is narrow and not many enter by it.
 
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