[MOVED] End of the world predictions are a dime a dozen and always wrong. :)

Luke17:37 · May 5, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
Hi Lk17. You're right that there are no guarantees. There will always be an element of mystery to any prophecy right up to the point that it is actually fulfilled.

However, I think the most likely fulfillment is that "sacrifices and oblations" refers to a literal temple. This concept of the physical temple vs the spiritual temple is a pretty consistent theme throughout the NT. I believe the prophecy is written in such a way that it has a duel meaning; it refers to two different princes. Jesus is the prince of peace while Satan is the prince of this world. While the AC makes an agreement to rebuild the physical temple (an act of rebellion in itself considering that Jesus has become our sacrifice) while Jesus organizes his spiritual temple (i.e. the 144k).

Jesus makes reference to the "abomination of desolation standing in the 'Holy place'" (Matthew 24:15) suggesting that it is indeed a rebuilt temple. However, again, I think this prophecy has a duel meaning; the more common being a reference back to the physical temple, but that place is no longer Holy (Matthew 27:51 , Revelation 11:8). The real Holy city is the body of believers and it is that "city" which is trampled underfoot. Jesus goes on to suggest this is the start of the Great Tribulation and that the believers should flee as they are able.

I think there's room for both interpretations to be consistent; the spiritual and the physical. What the AC does to Christians really will be abominable to God. The rebuilding of the temple will do the same because it acts as a reminder that Jesus was, and still is rejected.

Yes, there could be a physical temple built in Jerusalem. I just don't think we should count on it.

I don't think the 144,000 is Jesus organizing His spiritual temple, either. Each believer is a spiritual temple of the Holy Spirit, including these future 144,000, but not exclusively them. I believe these 144,000 are going to be actual people from the tribes God speaks of (Revelation 7:1-8) that He affords a supernatural protection to, that they will be able to survive the trumpets (such as trumpet #5, Revelation 9:4). God will allow many of the saints to die in the Tribulation, but it seems this special seal will protect this small group of faithful believers from being killed by the plagues at least.

Luke17:37 · May 5, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
It is evidence that there is plenty of room for how time is interpreted when it comes to the return of Jesus. One verse says "soon" while another verse says, "his coming is delayed". Of course John wanted people to take his message seriously. That argument doesn't address at all the issue I raised about how we interpret concepts like "soon" and "delayed".

Although His coming is right on time and "soon" to Jesus Himself, He often suggests it will be perceived as late. Besides the other passages you listed, there's Luke 18:1-8 and 2 Peter 3:3-9 (written of course by the Holy Spirit).

Luke 18:7-8
7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

This is one of the most devastating passages, I think, because it suggests to me that many will fall away on account of the long wait. That is going to be the most devastating thing, I think.

It reminds me of Jesus gentle admonition to John the Baptist, who had sent his disciples to inquire whether Jesus was the One who is to come (the Messiah) or if they should be looking for someone else. At that point John was in prison after faithfully doing the Lord's work, and he was soon to be beheaded. He was probably doubting and discouraged because of what Jesus had allowed to take place in his personal life.

Luke 7:23
23 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.”

Postvieww · May 5, 2016

parousia70 said:
OK, And the context here makes "no more" = how long?

It is today as Paul said:
2Co 5:16
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

Again, in whatever context you believe this to be, how long is "from Now on"?
How long is "NO LONGER"?

Again, once you allow for one difference, you're claim of "just as" fades away...

Just as you allow for the specific reason we will not retain our wounds in death because that was a "special" feature reserved for Christ alone, the reason there are MATERIAL differences in the way we are raised and the way in which Christ was raised is because of those Biblically defined differences between Christ's body and ours. Differences such as:

Christ is the only one who is both fully God and fully Man -- God incarnate. (John 1:1-18). Christ is the only one who was virgin born, and, therefore, born without original sin. (Rom. 3:21-26; 5:12-21; 7:4-11; etc.). Christ is the only one who ever lived a sinless life. (Heb. 4:15). Christ is the only one promised that his flesh would not suffer decay. (Acts 2:27,31).

His human body was not subject to original sin, nor corruptible (i.e. He was "impeccable"), nor did He ever commit sin and become corrupted. Because of this, He could keep His selfsame body, whereas, we cannot.
Unless Jesus' body had been resurrected, His disciples would have had no assurance that His soul had been to Hades and had been resurrected.

The physical resurrection of Christ was essential to verify the spiritual, to which it was tied. While the physical resurrection of our bodies, just as the retention of any wounds in them would have no point.

As St Paul says, "it is sown a Natural Body, it is raised a spiritual Body"

Ever crack open a seed? When sown, the outer shell dies and decays while the life inside springs forth. As St Paul also Says "36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

We are clearly not raised in the natural Body that is sown as you contend, wee are raised in the Spiritual Body that "God Gives us", while our Natural Body "Returns to Dust" (Gen 3:19)

And WHY was is such a problem for Paul that he claimed that?

Well, I'm attempting to see if you understand what the implication was that Paul was so concerned about.

But Here's your answer.

Paul links 1 Thess 4 to the desecration of the temple in 2 Thess 2 (thus Paul has a first-century mindset for both and is clearly linking up with AD 70). 1 Cor 15:54-56 explicitly mentions the victory of the dead over Hades would only be achieved once the Law (of Moses) ceased holding them back (thus bolstering my argument about 1 Thess 4).

I've now answered that Hymenaeus had a timing error, according to scripture, and that the timing error was hugely important. To answer why, I'd like to identify the damning, faith-destroying error Paul continuously addresses throughout his epistles:

Galatians 3:1-2,10
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?...as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse

Galatians 2:16,21
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified....I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly

Galatians 5:2-4
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

I could post a dozen other Pauline verses that repeat what was damming everyone in that generation, but those suffice. Belief that justification/salvation came from the Law Covenant of Moses was the damning, faith-destroying error Paul continuously had to address in his epistles.

It was for this same error that Hymenaeus was also being condemned by Paul, for Hymenaeus claimed that the release of the OT dead from Hades occurred within the Mosaic Covenant era, instead of at the destruction of the Law Covenant at AD 70. Hymenaeus was thus boldly claiming that the OT dead were saved through the Law Covenant of Moses, in direct contradiction to Paul's and Christ's teaching about the significance of the destruction of the Temple and OT priesthood and sacrifices. Hymenaeus was teaching salvation by the works of the Mosaic Law. He thus was "bewitched," "under a curse," had "fallen from grace," and was in essence saying "Christ died needlessly."

I'm sticking with it too... the problem for you seems to be the avalanche of scripture that supports my assertion that the condition "if" was not placed on the timing of the coming, but on the EFFECT of the coming. Don't watch, and the coming of punishment overtakes you as a thief, WATCH, coming of reward does not overtake you as a thief... but the coming still "comes", the only condition is placed on whether or not one would receive reward or punishment at the coming.

Nowhere in scripture is it taught that the timing of Christ's coming is a floating target based on the repentance or lack thereof of men. It is taught rather to happen at an "appointed time" Fixed before the foundation of the world.

Your view simply requires we toss out all those other scriptures.

Well, as I said before, whenever I have a question like this about the proper usage of a partucular word or phrase in front of me, I look elsewhere in scripture to let it inform my view.

COMMON OLD TESTAMENT USES OF "HEAVEN AND EARTH"

(1) The witness to the Covenant between Jehovah and Israel was "Heaven and Earth"

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

Leviticus 26:19
And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

Psalms 50:4
He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me

(2) Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

(3) The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's judgments upon nations and individuals

Against Ancient Babylon
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 51:48
Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD

Against King Saul
Psalms 18:7-10
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... Hebowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
Haggai 2:21
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth

So, getting back to the use of the phrase as it was used by Jesus, Peter and the writer of Hebrews, we can see that they didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom.

As the great Charles Spurgeon wrote:

C.H. Spurgeon On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Actually it didn't. Ungodly people did, the material cosmos remained undestroyed. The material substance of Heaven and Earth was not destroyed at all. How many fish do you say perished in the flood?
How many fish do you say Noah brought on the Ark?

God doesn't have "soon" Postview. Nothing is "soon" to God, nothing is "far" to God. God doesn't have to wait "shortly" for anything, Just as He doesn't have to wait "a long time" for anything. God is Time-LESS.
Worth repeating.
GOD IS TIME-LESS.

"Near and Far" are HUMAN time indicators God uses to communicate accurate passages of Time to Men. even though God is timeless Himself, Contrary to your assertion God knows how to tell time CORRECTLY and know how to CORRECTLY communicate it's passing to Men.

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

This particular Planting of the heavens and laying the foundations of earth took place AFTER God parted the Red Sea and led the Hebrew people out of Egypt and formed them into a Nation. The Heavens and Earth God Planted in this verse were indeed Burned with fervent Heat in AD 70.

Now, let me ask you this:
"For verily I say unto you, Until heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:18-19)

You I assume you would agree that "until heaven and earth pass" is a key eschatological indicator. I think we both agree it is the eschatological "passing of heaven and earth" spoken of many times in the N.T..

Jesus CLEARLY says that UNTIL that time when Heaven and Earth passes, not even the most minute jot nor tittle shall pass from the law until all is fulfilled AND, THEREFORE, whosoever shall break one of these LEAST COMMANDS and shall teach men to do so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Postview, this gives you a very real dilemma if you believe heaven and earth have NOT passed:

(#1) You are presently breaking even those very LEAST of the commands of the Law of Moses and are teaching others to do so -- therefore you will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven
--OR--
(#2) You are presently doing and teaching even those very least of the 600+ commands of the Law of Moses and therefore shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

I look forward to hearing whether you are doing #1 or #2 in our day. However there is a bit of a problem with #2 -- namely, that, since AD70, no human being on the planet is able to do and teach even 50 percent of the Law of Moses, much less every jot and tittle concerning the LEAST of its 600+ commands. Therefore heaven and earth must have passed.

Conclusion:
Heaven and earth have indeed passed away and we live in the New Heaven and Earth of Christ's covenant. As Jesus said concerning the demise of the 2nd Temple, "Heaven and earth will pass away BUT MY WORDS will never pass away" (Mark 13:31).

Parousia70previous post

“A little while longer and the world will see Me no more.." (Jn 14:19)

How long is "No more" in your view?

Undetermined length of time but with a definite conclusion. In this chapter Jesus referred to going back to be with the Father hence the world will see Him “no more” until He returns when every eye will see Him. My view is irrelevant.

OK, And the context here makes "no more" = how long?

However long it takes Jesus to return and that hasn’t happed yet!

It is today as Paul said:

2Co 5:16

Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

Again, in whatever context you believe this to be, how long is "from Now on"?

How long is "NO LONGER"?

No longer.

Again, once you allow for one difference, you're claim of "just as" fades away...

Just as you allow for the specific reason we will not retain our wounds in death because that was a "special" feature reserved for Christ alone, the reason there are MATERIAL differences in the way we are raised and the way in which Christ was raised is because of those Biblically defined differences between Christ's body and ours. Differences such as:

I presume you are laying the ground work for not believing in a physical resurrection.

Christ is the only one who is both fully God and fully Man -- God incarnate. (John 1:1-18). Christ is the only one who was virgin born, and, therefore, born without original sin. (Rom. 3:21-26; 5:12-21; 7:4-11; etc.). Christ is the only one who ever lived a sinless life. (Heb. 4:15). Christ is the only one promised that his flesh would not suffer decay. (Acts 2:27,31).

Amen. You see we can agree on somethings.

His human body was not subject to original sin, nor corruptible (i.e. He was "impeccable"), nor did He ever commit sin and become corrupted. Because of this, He could keep His selfsame body,

Agreed

whereas, we cannot.

We obviously are not sinless and God incarnate but we will have a resurrected physical body.

Philippians 3:11 & 21, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Unless Jesus' body had been resurrected, His disciples would have had no assurance that His soul had been to Hades and had been resurrected.

The physical resurrection of Christ was essential to verify the spiritual, to which it was tied. While the physical resurrection of our bodies, just as the retention of any wounds in them would have no point.

Looks like I was right about you laying the ground work for that “tricky” resurrection.

As St Paul says, "it is sown a Natural Body, it is raised a spiritual Body"

Ever crack open a seed? When sown, the outer shell dies and decays while the life inside springs forth. As St Paul also Says "36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

We are clearly not raised in the natural Body that is sown as you contend, wee are raised in the Spiritual Body that "God Gives us", while our Natural Body "Returns to Dust" (Gen 3:19)

I understand what you are claiming I just strongly disagree!

Job disagrees with you as well.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Do you really believe your arguments would convince Job he would not one day have a physical resurrection?

It was for this same error that Hymenaeus was also being condemned by Paul, for Hymenaeus claimed that the release of the OT dead from Hades occurred within the Mosaic Covenant era, instead of at the destruction of the Law Covenant at AD 70.

Disagree again, this release happened at the time of Christ’s resurrection, Ephesians 4:8-10

Also disagree that Law covenant ended in 70AD. Matthew 27:51, Romans 10:4. That ended with the death and resurrection of Jesus. Just because some continued believing the law was their salvation does not mean it had not ended as far as God was concerned. Hebrews 8, 9 & 10

Hymenaeus was thus boldly claiming that the OT dead were saved through the Law Covenant of Moses, in direct contradiction to Paul's and Christ's teaching about the significance of the destruction of the Temple and OT priesthood and sacrifices. Hymenaeus was teaching salvation by the works of the Mosaic Law. He thus was "bewitched," "under a curse," had "fallen from grace," and was in essence saying "Christ died needlessly."

I'm sticking with it too... the problem for you seems to be the avalanche of scripture that supports my assertion that the condition "if" was not placed on the timing of the coming, but on the EFFECT of the coming. Don't watch, and the coming of punishment overtakes you as a thief, WATCH, coming of reward does not overtake you as a thief... but the coming still "comes", the only condition is placed on whether or not one would receive reward or punishment at the coming.

Nowhere in scripture is it taught that the timing of Christ's coming is a floating target based on the repentance or lack thereof of men. It is taught rather to happen at an "appointed time" Fixed before the foundation of the world.

Your view simply requires we toss out all those other scriptures.

I disagree with your assertion that any coming in the 7 letters to the churches is the same as 1 Thess 4, Rev 19, and others.

God doesn't have "soon" Postview. Nothing is "soon" to God, nothing is "far" to God. God doesn't have to wait "shortly" for anything, Just as He doesn't have to wait "a long time" for anything. God is Time-LESS.

Worth repeating.

GOD IS TIME-LESS.

"Near and Far" are HUMAN time indicators God uses to communicate accurate passages of Time to Men. even though God is timeless Himself, Contrary to your assertion God knows how to tell time CORRECTLY and know how to CORRECTLY communicate it's passing to Men.

Ok let’s play by your rules. In your mind just how long is soon, exactly, and how did you determine that?????

Conclusion:

Heaven and earth have indeed passed away and we live in the New Heaven and Earth of Christ's covenant. As Jesus said concerning the demise of the 2nd Temple, "Heaven and earth will pass away BUT MY WORDS will never pass away" (Mark 13:31).

Since we are living in the new heaven and earth, please give me GPS address to the city described below so I can check it out.

Revelation 21

Where is there no more sea? No more tears, death, sorrow, pain or crying. Where is that happening? So all of the fearful, unbelieving, murders, abominable, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars are in the lake of fire?? Yes I saw your words “New Heaven and Earth of Christ's covenant”, just tell me where the city described in Revelation 21 is now.

Conclusion:

Jesus did not return in 70 AD and we are not living in the new heaven and earth. By the way which 1000 years of the last 2 was satan bound? From the looks of things it must have been the 1st 1000.

keras · May 5, 2016

eclipsenow said:
Rubbish! John said it would begin soon, and he wanted HIS generation to obey his message! How are they going to obey something about a political and worldly situation 2000 years away?

The events of Revelation DID begin soon, when Jesus ascended to heaven; in the first century.
John saw Jesus; the Lamb with the marks of sacrifice on Him, Revelation 5:6-8, take the scroll from God and commence removing the Seals. Seals one to five were opened then, as we know from history with the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters experienced since then. The Saints have been killed for their testimony of God's Word, from Stephen until the present day and will continue until Jesus Returns.
But the Sixth Seal wasn't opened then, as those cosmic and earth shaking things prophesied there haven't happened yet. That awaits the Appointed time, the Day the Lord will arise and punish the nations, Revelation 14:17-20, and the vast multitude of righteous Christians, Revelation 7:9, will gather and live in all of the holy Land. Matthew 3:12, Ezekiel 34:11-16

eclipsenow · May 5, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
Daniel 9:27 doesn't say all these things about the temple.

Daniel 9:27
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

The temple may be rebuilt, but it doesn't call for it in the beginning of the verse, it just says that in the middle of the week there will be an end to sacrifice and offerings, and that the abomination that causes desolation will be set up.

The temple could be rebuilt, but it seems like it's saying the Antichrist's covenant with many is the start of the seven years.

I think we should be watching for the covenant with many as opposed to a third temple. Who knows if there will be an actual 3rd temple? Could it be possible that the abomination that causes desolation refers to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, for example if a Christian desecrates their bodily temple by taking the mark of the beast in/on their bodily temple, making their temple unholy and unfit for the Spirit of God to dwell there? What if stopping sacrifice and offering is the act of making practicing Christianity a capital offense (absolutely no public freedom to worship Jahweh as we desire). It would be easier to recognize if the abomination that causes desolation refers to a physical temple in Jerusalem, but I just don't think the prophecy is specific enough that we can guarantee it.

See also: Book of Daniel § Dating and content, and Gospel of Mark § Date
The 1 Maccabees usage of the term points to the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the mid-2nd century BC. Specifically, he set up an altar to Zeus in the Second Temple in Jerusalem, and sacrificed swine on it around the year 167 BC.[citation needed] Many modern scholars believe that Daniel 9:27, 11:31 and 12:11 are examples of vaticinium ex eventu(prophecies after the event) relating to Antiochus.[11][12]

Many modern biblical scholars[13] conclude that Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are prophecies after the event about the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70 by the Roman general Titus.[14] Some scholars, including Hermann Detering,[15] see these verses as avaticinium ex eventu about Emperor Hadrian's attempt to install the statue of Jupiter Capitolinus on the site of the ruined Jewish Temple in Jerusalem leading to the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132-135 AD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation#Modern_biblical_scholarship

eclipsenow · May 5, 2016

keras said:
The events of Revelation DID begin soon, when Jesus ascended to heaven; in the first century.

And there's absolutely no reason to think any other part of Revelation cannot be applied, like a good gospel sermon, to the first century Christians.

John saw Jesus; the Lamb with the marks of sacrifice on Him, Revelation 5:6-8, take the scroll from God and commence removing the Seals. Seals one to five were opened then, as we know from history with the wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters experienced since then. The Saints have been killed for their testimony of God's Word, from Stephen until the present day and will continue until Jesus Returns.

Ah, here we go. An end times table. How nice. And what do you say to all the other futurists that disagree and think those seals are today, or in about 7 years, or some other time?

But the Sixth Seal wasn't opened then, as those cosmic and earth shaking things prophesied there haven't happened yet.

Wrong. Vesuvius blew, Krakatoa blew, earthquakes and tsunamis etc all fulfil this kind of generic chaos in nature.

That awaits the Appointed time, the Day the Lord will arise and punish the nations, Revelation 14:17-20, and the vast multitude of righteous Christians, Revelation 7:9, will gather and live in all of the holy Land. Matthew 3:12, Ezekiel 34:11-16

The Lord punished all evil on the cross. The Lord didn't punish all the evil of the nations on that day of the Lord. The one 'day of the Lord' of the OT has telescoped into 2 days, his death & resurrection and his return in judgement. But I don't see any justification of making the rest of Revelation disobey chapter 1 in your references above. You've got a lot more work to do. Stop assuming your end times table and just applying that willy-nilly, and start reading what is actually there.

keras · May 5, 2016

eclipsenow said:
Ah, here we go. An end times table. How nice. And what do you say to all the other futurists that disagree and think those seals are today, or in about 7 years, or some other time?

They would be wrong, because our troubled history of all the things of the 1-5 Seals have happened.

eclipsenow said:
But the Sixth Seal wasn't opened then, as those cosmic and earth shaking things prophesied there haven't happened yet. Wrong. Vesuvius blew, Krakatoa blew, earthquakes and tsunamis etc all fulfil this kind of generic chaos in nature.

So; when was the sun turned black, the moon red as blood, the stars falling and the sky rolled up? They say mountains and islands have moved by a few millimeters during the earthquakes we have experienced. Does that fulfil Revelation 6:14b?

eclipsenow · May 5, 2016

keras said:
They would be wrong, because our troubled history of all the things of the 1-5 Seals have happened.

So; when was the sun turned black, the moon red as blood, the stars falling and the sky rolled up? They say mountains and islands have moved by a few millimeters during the earthquakes we have experienced. Does that fulfil Revelation 6:14b?

I'll answer that when you tell me when Jesus had 7 eyes and 7 horns.

keras · May 5, 2016

eclipsenow said:
I'll answer that when you tell me when Jesus had 7 eyes and 7 horns.

After Jesus ascended to heaven.
Revelation 5:6b...He had seven horns and seven eyes, the eyes are the seven spirits of God, sent to every part of the world.
This is also explained in Zechariah 4:5....the seven eyes of the Lord, that range over the whole earth.

We aren't told what the seven horns are, but elsewhere 'horns' refer to kings or leaders.

AS for global warming, that is simply a scare tactic by those wanting a One World Govt, and SPICE is a fanciful dream.

eclipsenow · May 5, 2016

keras said:
After Jesus ascended to heaven.
Revelation 5:6b...He had seven horns and seven eyes, the eyes are the seven spirits of God, sent to every part of the world.
This is also explained in Zechariah 4:5....the seven eyes of the Lord, that range over the whole earth.

So you're saying Jesus actually has 7 actual horns now?
Your Honour, I rest my case.

AS for global warming, that is simply a scare tactic by those wanting a One World Govt, and SPICE is a fanciful dream.

Climate change is real and demonstrated by the sheer demonstrable, repeatable physics of CO2. And I like the idea of one world government if it's democratic, like a giant EU!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campa...nt_of_a_United_Nations_Parliamentary_Assembly

Endtime Survivors · May 6, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
Although His coming is right on time and "soon" to Jesus Himself, He often suggests it will be perceived as late. Besides the other passages you listed, there's Luke 18:1-8 and 2 Peter 3:3-9 (written of course by the Holy Spirit).

Yeah, that's pretty close to my position. Whether he really is late or he's perceived as late (though I lean more toward the latter) the lesson behind those verses is to remain faithfully watching and waiting.

Luke17:37 said:
This is one of the most devastating passages, I think, because it suggests to me that many will fall away on account of the long wait. That is going to be the most devastating thing, I think.

Yeah. Faithfulness can be pretty rare sometimes.

Luke17:37 said:
Yes, there could be a physical temple built in Jerusalem. I just don't think we should count on it.

I don't think I'm counting on it in the sense that I'd lose my faith if it didn't happen, but from what I can see, it makes the most sense that it will happen. I think you are fairly familiar with the general attitude of the religious Jews over there in Jerusalem. Isn't it your experience that keenly interested in rebuilding the temple?

Luke17:37 said:
Each believer is a spiritual temple of the Holy Spirit, including these future 144,000, but not exclusively them.

I agree that the 144k do not have exclusive rights to being a part of the body of God. However, they are different and I believe it is this phrase which makes them different; "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth". If you look at the way Jesus lived, and consider the things he taught there are precious few people in the world who have that kind of commitment. For the final 7 years these people will be instrumental in reaching the world precisely because of their sincerity and willingness to follow the lamb.

Luke17:37 said:
I believe these 144,000 are going to be actual people from the tribes God speaks of (Revelation 7:1-8) that He affords a supernatural protection to, that they will be able to survive the trumpets (such as trumpet #5, Revelation 9:4). God will allow many of the saints to die in the Tribulation, but it seems this special seal will protect this small group of faithful believers from being killed by the plagues at least.

I'm not sure what you mean by "people from the tribes God speaks of". I'm aware of the list of tribes from the verse you quoted, but as to who the people will be who make up those tribes, I think only God knows. If you're suggesting it will be flesh Jews from today, I think that would be a mistake.

The rest of what you've shared I agree with. It's been refreshing to discuss these issue with you. I look forward to your response.

keras · May 6, 2016

eclipsenow said:
So you're saying Jesus actually has 7 actual horns now?

They 7 horns and 7 eyes are stated as factual, but we can be sure they are metaphors for Jesus' spiritual powers and abilities. All will be revealed in due course.

eclipsenow said:
Your Honour, I rest my case.

Which Judge is that? It sounds more like you, yourself are doing the judging.

eclipsenow said:
Climate change is real and demonstrated by the sheer demonstrable, repeatable physics of CO2

Global Warming, or as it had to be re-named; Climate Change, is nothing other that the natural, cyclical weather pattern.
The sun is the driver of it all and sunspot activity, of which there has been a lot in the past few years, is the ONLY reason we experience temperature variations.
Realize this: the so called experts on C.C. make a nice income from preying on gullible people.
What you and everyone should be aware of is the soon to happen Lord's Day of fiery wrath. THAT will be C.C. like no other!

Endtime Survivors said:
I don't think I'm counting on it in the sense that I'd lose my faith if it didn't happen, but from what I can see, it makes the most sense that it will happen. I think you are fairly familiar with the general attitude of the religious Jews over there in Jerusalem. Isn't it your experience that keenly interested in rebuilding the temple?

I have been to Israel and I know many Jewish people. Generally, they do not want a new Temple. It would be too much of a change to the present status quo.
However the Bible is clear, there will be a new Temple in Jerusalem before the Return of Jesus. This will be possible when the entire holy Land is virtually depopulated, as Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1:1-15
Zechariah 6:15 Men from far away will come and work on building the Temple of the Lord.....

Luke17:37 · May 6, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
Although His coming is right on time and "soon" to Jesus Himself, He often suggests it will be perceived as late. Besides the other passages you listed, there's Luke 18:1-8 and 2 Peter 3:3-9 (written of course by the Holy Spirit).

Click to expand...

Yeah, that's pretty close to my position. Whether he really is late or he's perceived as late (though I lean more toward the latter) the lesson behind those verses is to remain faithfully watching and waiting.

Yes, we are to remain faithfully watching and waiting, while knowing that it could take awhile. (And it has been nearly two thousand years.)

Endtime Survivors said:
This is one of the most devastating passages, I think, because it suggests to me that many will fall away on account of the long wait. That is going to be the most devastating thing, I think.

Click to expand...

Yeah. Faithfulness can be pretty rare sometimes.

Yes.

Endtime Survivors said:
Yes, there could be a physical temple built in Jerusalem. I just don't think we should count on it.

Click to expand...

I don't think I'm counting on it in the sense that I'd lose my faith if it didn't happen, but from what I can see, it makes the most sense that it will happen. I think you are fairly familiar with the general attitude of the religious Jews over there in Jerusalem. Isn't it your experience that keenly interested in rebuilding the temple?

Oh, yeah, I know the religious Jews want it. When I visited Jerusalem I went to The Temple Institute, a museum showcasing copies of the elements for the temple. They have completed the blueprints and all the furnishings for a new temple so they are able to be really most expeditious in building it if the opportunity arises in the future.

I guess I just want to think outside the box when I think of possibilities. I know a lot of Christians today expect a 3rd temple to be built in Jerusalem and that the mark of the beast will be a microchip, and it might be. But because there's a prophecied great delusion (2 Thessalonians 2), I just want to be cautious about holding too strongly to any opinion of how Scriptures like these are going to be fulfilled. I don't want to miss something because I was so focused on one interpretation. I'm afraid many Christians will not recognize the Tribulation or the mark of the beast because they expect the Tribulation to come, "after they are raptured."

Endtime Survivors said:
Each believer is a spiritual temple of the Holy Spirit, including these future 144,000, but not exclusively them.

Click to expand...

I agree that the 144k do not have exclusive rights to being a part of the body of God. However, they are different and I believe it is this phrase which makes them different; "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth". If you look at the way Jesus lived, and consider the things he taught there are precious few people in the world who have that kind of commitment. For the final 7 years these people will be instrumental in reaching the world precisely because of their sincerity and willingness to follow the lamb.

In chapter 12, there are suggestions to me that maybe the 144,000 will flee to the wilderness to be cared for during the second half of the seven year Tribulation. I'm not sure they are even going to be witnesses so much by then (especially if God is hiding them in the wilderness). I think the main witnesses are going to be the ones dying for their faith, but the 144,000 are definitely the cream of the crop when it comes to Israelite believers in Jesus whose faith is being manifest in spiritual fruit. Sometimes I wonder to myself if one of my friends will be one of the 144,000 because he is Jewish and he has such a childlike pure faith. He shares the gospel so habitually in a very direct but unthreatening way.

Endtime Survivors said:
I believe these 144,000 are going to be actual people from the tribes God speaks of (Revelation 7:1-8) that He affords a supernatural protection to, that they will be able to survive the trumpets (such as trumpet #5, Revelation 9:4). God will allow many of the saints to die in the Tribulation, but it seems this special seal will protect this small group of faithful believers from being killed by the plagues at least.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean by "people from the tribes God speaks of". I'm aware of the list of tribes from the verse you quoted, but as to who the people will be who make up those tribes, I think only God knows. If you're suggesting it will be flesh Jews from today, I think that would be a mistake.

Every tribe is listed except Dan, and Joseph and Manasseh are listed (so Joseph effectively gets a double portion, since Manasseh is a son of Joseph). Even though most people don't know what tribe they are from or maybe that they are even descended from one of the tribes (especially since the ten tribes were scattered over the face of the earth), God knows. I am unaware if I have any Israelite blood. I do believe they are going to be physical descendants of these tribes of Israel (even if they are known as descendants only by God), and not pure Gentiles.

Endtime Survivors said:
The rest of what you've shared I agree with. It's been refreshing to discuss these issue with you. I look forward to your response.

You're welcome.

eclipsenow · May 6, 2016

keras said:
They 7 horns and 7 eyes are stated as factual, but we can be sure they are metaphors for Jesus' spiritual powers and abilities.

Ah, metaphors! Now we're onto something! So metaphors can describe a reality can they? In the languages of images and symbols, hey? Excellent. We're agreed on something at least.

All will be revealed in due course.

Sorry but I accept the doctrine of the "Sufficiency of Scripture" which, in summary, says I know everything I need to know in the bible. I can be thoroughly equipped that way. (2 Tim 3:16). A common symbol for power is horns, a common biblical symbol for knowledge is eyes, and a common number often used to describe God's perfection is 7. Therefore, Jesus has perfect power and knowledge. QED.

Global Warming, or as it had to be re-named... blah blah blah

Yeah, want some prejudice with your scientific ignorance? ha ha ha. If you want to actually discuss the science of it, there are plenty of climate threads in the science sub forum. I'll not have this thread derailed by your anti-science rhetoric.

However the Bible is clear, there will be a new Temple in Jerusalem before the Return of Jesus. This will be possible when the entire holy Land is virtually depopulated, as Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1:1-15

Nah. Aren't those prophecies about Jesus? Isn't he the perfect temple? Come on, what did he say he would do to the 2nd temple? Destroy it and raise it in 3 days? Where was that NT verse that said all OT promises find their Yes in Jesus?

Zechariah 6:15 Men from far away will come and work on building the Temple of the Lord.....
They did. Rome. Then they destroyed it. Now it's gone.

Tell me this: the disciples were asking about THEIR temple, the one they could see with THEIR eyes that THEIR LORD IN FRONT OF THEM said would be destroyed! Here's the whopper for you futurists: at what point did Jesus start LYING to the disciples and talking about a still-yet-hypothetical third temple? I've read Matt 24 and all the other Olivet discourses, and I just can't see where you add 2000 years and another temple into the story. There's 2 subjects: the end of THAT temple, the one the disciples could see with their own eyes, and the return of the Lord.

Now, run along and insert 2000 years into the Olivet discourse... and make Jesus lie to the disciples. Just make sure you use RED to know which bits you made up and which bits were in the original text.

Endtime Survivors · May 6, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
I guess I just want to think outside the box when I think of possibilities. I know a lot of Christians today expect a 3rd temple to be built in Jerusalem and that the mark of the beast will be a microchip, and it might be. But because there's a prophecied great delusion (2 Thessalonians 2), I just want to be cautious about holding too strongly to any opinion of how Scriptures like these are going to be fulfilled.

I have a theory regarding how this great deception will apply to both these issues. For the Mark, it will come in the form of normalcy. The Mark will be used to control buying and selling. It will not appear as overtly religious in nature, because it does not need to be religious in nature. It fulfills a practical purpose; keeping people loyal to the worldly systems of man (where we only help one another if we get paid for it) as opposed to the values of Heaven (where we help one another just because we want to).

Satan doesn't care about money. His only interest in it is in how he can use it to exploit our greed and fear. Because people put their trust in buying/selling they will just naturally see any method of buying/selling as normal, even with the clear warnings about buying/selling and use of the right hand. I had one woman tell me that God is her protection and if microchip implants are the Mark then God would not allow her to take it. What kind of faith is that? One imagines the needle suddenly veering off to the left or right, magically unable to inject the chip into her hand. No, God's protection doesn't extend to preventing us from choosing who we will serve.

The deception comes when we ignore or make excuses for our dependence on money and the things money can buy.

As for the temple, people seem to love putting their faith in buildings. The Jews did it. And much of Christianity today does it, too; the idea that God lives in and can be found in these buildings. I suppose it makes them feel more powerful, more in control. Invariably they just end up worshiping the works of their own hands. People will see the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem as a sign of achievement for humanity. They will take the perceived Holiness of the building and apply it to themselves.

The fact that this building, in particular, represents the old way, before Jesus came along, will make it all the worse. It's reconstruction (which won't be for "historical" purposes) will act as a symbol of rejection for Jesus' sacrifice. It's an interesting coincidence that,during Jesus' trial, the charge which they finally found two witnesses to agree on was that Jesus made disparaging comments about the temple (Matthew 6:61-62).

Luke17:37 · May 6, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
I have a theory regarding how this great deception will apply to both these issues. For the Mark, it will come in the form of normalcy. The Mark will be used to control buying and selling. It will not appear as overtly religious in nature, because it does not need to be religious in nature. It fulfills a practical purpose; keeping people loyal to the worldly systems of man (where we only help one another if we get paid for it) as opposed to the values of Heaven (where we help one another just because we want to).

Satan doesn't care about money. His only interest in it is in how he can use it to exploit our greed and fear. Because people put their trust in buying/selling they will just naturally see any method of buying/selling as normal, even with the clear warnings about buying/selling and use of the right hand. I had one woman tell me that God is her protection and if microchip implants are the Mark then God would not allow her to take it. What kind of faith is that? One imagines the needle suddenly veering off to the left or right, magically unable to inject the chip into her hand. No, God's protection doesn't extend to preventing us from choosing who we will serve.

The deception comes when we ignore or make excuses for our dependence on money and the things money can buy.

As for the temple, people seem to love putting their faith in buildings. The Jews did it. And much of Christianity today does it, too; the idea that God lives in and can be found in these buildings. I suppose it makes them feel more powerful, more in control. Invariably they just end up worshiping the works of their own hands. People will see the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem as a sign of achievement for humanity. They will take the perceived Holiness of the building and apply it to themselves.

The fact that this building, in particular, represents the old way, before Jesus came along, will make it all the worse. It's reconstruction (which won't be for "historical" purposes) will act as a symbol of rejection for Jesus' sacrifice. It's an interesting coincidence that,during Jesus' trial, the charge which they finally found two witnesses to agree on was that Jesus made disparaging comments about the temple (Matthew 6:61-62).

Yeah, the requirement to have it for buying and selling is the main identifier of the mark. I think people will assume it's okay because they have to eat and they might be afraid they will starve if they obey God. When Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of stew, he could not get it back.

I hope this person you referred to wisens up.

Endtime Survivors · May 6, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
I hope this person you referred to wisens up.

I wouldn't know; it didn't take long to get kicked off that forum!

eclipsenow · May 6, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
Y....and that the mark of the beast will be a microchip, and it might be.

Would you take the chip if implanted in the left hand and back of the head, instead of as described in Rev 13?
And what do you make of the first verse in Rev 14?

"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads."

eclipsenow · May 6, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
I think people will assume it's okay because they have to eat and they might be afraid they will starve if they obey God. When Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of stew, he could not get it back.

But Esau was treating God's special plan for his family with contempt by rushing into that deal. He should never have done it. We, however, have a responsibility to work hard and provide for our families. It's a biblical responsibility as Paul shows. So again, what if it's the left hand or back of the head? In other words, how literally are you going to read this stuff, and are you going to be consistent? Years ago the bankcard symbol had 3 b's inside each other = 666 in the logo, or so some hypersensitive Christians thought. How literal?

16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

If this is about first century Rome, it could be symbolic language describing how some might have paid for tickets to the arena where the emperor's image was to be worshipped and Christians killed as sport. Dr Paul Barnett (Christian historian) says they carried a little tablet as a ticket to enter. The forehead? Could be symbolic of ownership, and not something that actually happened to visitors to the arena. For instance, are we all going to end up with actual, literal writing on our foreheads for all eternity, or is that symbolic of God's ownership of us in heaven?

Rev 14?
"Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads."

Jesus does not have 7 eyes and 7 horns, as it is an image describing his perfect (7) knowledge (eyes) and power (horns). See how this imagery works? Yet people want to rob it of theological power to be a sermon relevant to all Christians in all ages, and turn it into a literalistic timetable for our very special generation. But in wanting it to be all about us, they're robbing it from having anything relevant to say to 2000 years of Christians.

Endtime Survivors · May 6, 2016

eclipsenow said:
We, however, have a responsibility to work hard and provide for our families. It's a biblical responsibility as Paul shows.

Sure, so work hard for them. Work hard for your brothers and sisters, too. Work hard for God. Those are noble motivations which become spoiled when payment is thrown into the mix. You don't charge your family payment for your time, skills, and ability; that's good. It's because you love them, right?

If your reasoning is to be consistent, then you'd not be loving the stranger whom you do charge payment. You help them because they agree to give you payment. If they do not agree (or they just don't have the payment) then you do not help. That is the monetary system and it's why taking the Mark will be so contrary to God. It will be the culmination of thousands of years of greed and fear between people.

[MOVED] End of the world predictions are a dime a dozen and always wrong. :)

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Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

prophecy link in my profile!

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

prophecy link in my profile!

Well-Known Member

prophecy link in my profile!

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

prophecy link in my profile!

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