We are losing our minds because the left is holding them hostage.

grandvizier1006 · May 2, 2016

Martinius said:
No, no one is insisting anything. I think the discussion there is not as one sided as that, but is looking at whether the article is correct and also pointing out that this occurs on both ends of the spectrum. But thanks for stopping by TOL and checking out the thread.

But doesn't the fact that there even ARE two different threads on the SAME topic with completely OPPOSITE takes on a subject that causes many Christians to be concerned for their future pose a problem?

Also, consider that we're all having an argument over a CAKE. We let a CAKE and the circumstances surrounding it dictate our theology, doctrine, morals, etc. What does that say about all of us?

MoonlessNight · May 2, 2016

grandvizier1006 said:
But doesn't the fact that there even ARE two different threads on the SAME topic with completely OPPOSITE takes on a subject that causes many Christians to be concerned for their future pose a problem?

Also, consider that we're all having an argument over a CAKE. We let a CAKE and the circumstances surrounding it dictate our theology, doctrine, morals, etc. What does that say about all of us?

We have had many other threads about bakers, but this thread is about people losing their jobs, companies being boycotted for expressing normal views of the family, and legal action being threatened against those with the incorrect scientific opinions.

grandvizier1006 · May 2, 2016

MoonlessNight said:
We have had many other threads about bakers, but this thread is about people losing their jobs, companies being boycotted for expressing normal views of the family, and legal action being threatened against those with the incorrect scientific opinions.

I understand that. I guess I'm just mad that we have let the issue tear our society and the church apart along semi-political lines

MoonlessNight · May 2, 2016

grandvizier1006 said:
I understand that. I guess I'm just mad that we have let the issue tear our society and the church apart along semi-political lines

It is regrettable that we have gotten to this point, but however we feel about it it is where we are. If people are willing to get you fired, or to seek government action against you, because you go against their beliefs, then the only options are conflict or surrendering to their beliefs. No one likes it, but as long as the ways to quickly end the conflict are unacceptable, the conflict will continue.

RDKirk · May 2, 2016

Rhamiel said:
In Acts 25:11 St. Paul seems to agree that the State has the right to use the Sword

And Jesus will one day smash all states. All human states fall. All of them. Only the Kingdom of Heaven persists. So God's permission for the king to use the sword to keep order in this fallen world has no more relationship to how citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven should manage their personal affairs than the laws of the USSR had in governing how US diplomats handed their affairs while within the US embassy.

at the time the New Testament was written there were no Christians as heads of state

Nor were any anticipated or intended.

RDKirk · May 2, 2016

MoonlessNight said:
It is regrettable that we have gotten to this point, but however we feel about it it is where we are. If people are willing to get you fired, or to seek government action against you, because you go against their beliefs, then the only options are conflict or surrendering to their beliefs. No one likes it, but as long as the ways to quickly end the conflict are unacceptable, the conflict will continue.

You are talking as though Catholics have not faced those issues before.

Miss Shelby · May 2, 2016

MikeK said:
Very seldom do people "strap on rainbow sashes and sit in Mass in defiance of Church doctrine." I have never once seen such a thing happen, but I know literally dozens of known contraceptors or people who remarried without an annulment who routinely present themselves for the Eucharist.

They very well may. And if a gay person does the same I have no beef I am surely not going to confront them. I am probably not gonna think about it just as I wouldn't think of a remarried with no annulment person receiving the Eucharist. Like any of us would know their personal business. My point is that people who knowingly go against Church teaching don't advertise their sin as being right. Most are ashamed or indifferent whereas gay people tend to believe it's their right and the church should change. And if they ARE indifferent they simply don't go to church. But you do not hear groups of adulterers or contracepters or unmarried fornicators challenging Church doctrine. You do see it in the gay community and with their support ers.

MoonlessNight · May 2, 2016

RDKirk said:
You are talking as though Catholics have not faced those issues before.

Indeed there were many heresies which divided the Church in previous ages, many which divided the Church far more than anything today has and many which had political dimensions. What we are experiencing today is not unique.

But we should be thankful that in past ages the faithful of the Church did not surrender to error in order to achieve a quick peace.

MikeK · May 2, 2016

Miss Shelby said:
They very well may. And if a gay person does the same I have no beef I am surely not going to confront them. I am probably not gonna think about it just as I wouldn't think of a remarried with no annulment person receiving the Eucharist. Like any of us would know their personal business. My point is that people who knowingly go against Church teaching don't advertise their sin as being right. Most are ashamed or indifferent whereas gay people tend to believe it's their right and the church should change. And if they ARE indifferent they simply don't go to church. But you do not hear groups of adulterers or contracepters or unmarried fornicators challenging Church doctrine. You do see it in the gay community and with their support ers.

I don't think gays tend to believe that the Eucharist is their right and the Church should change. Certainly some do, just as some people who are "remarried" feel that way. Both groups are small minorities in their larger group, I suspect. Most people don't care either way what a religion that they regard as little more than old-fashioned superstition does or doesn't do.

Miss Shelby · May 2, 2016

MikeK said:
I don't think gays tend to believe that the Eucharist is their right and the Church should change. Certainly some do, just as some people who are "remarried" feel that way. Both groups are small minorities in their larger group, I suspect. Most people don't care either way what a religion that they regard as little more than old-fashioned superstition does or doesn't do.

We can agree to disagree as much as I loathe that compromise. I believe the gay community (perhaps their outspoken crowd) is really working to change the doctrine.

MikeK · May 2, 2016

Miss Shelby said:
We can agree to disagree as much as I loathe that compromise. I believe the gay community (perhaps their outspoken crowd) is really working to change the doctrine.

It is possible that you're right. I can say that none of the homosexuals I know really care much at all about what the Church teaches.

I do have a bisexual friend who is the daughter of a former Brother. She is agnostic at best but is one of the best scholars of the Church that I personally know. She quotes the Summa with ease. She is what some people on this board would call a radical feminist (they'd be wrong, but whatevs). Even she doesn't want the Church to change...she just thinks it's interesting and a bit silly.

benedictaoo · May 3, 2016

I can't see gays protesting Mass that way. At best they just go and don't worry about what anyone thinks. I have seen openly gay ppl at mass and all the priest does is just remind folks that if you have not confessed properly and are in sin you should not come up for communion. They are allowed in Church. I have also seen where Monsignor (God rest him) gave a rather long homily on artificial birth control and this young couple who, I want to assume was there because they were probably getting married and had to be there, they got up and walked out on Monsignor. So, that's just as bad. IMO.

Rhamiel · May 3, 2016

benedictaoo said:
I can't see gays protesting Mass that way. At best they just go and don't worry about what anyone thinks. I have seen openly gay ppl at mass and all the priest does is just remind folks that if you have not confessed properly and are in sin you should not come up for communion. They are allowed in Church. I have also seen where Monsignor (God rest him) gave a rather long homily on artificial birth control and this young couple who, I want to assume was there because they were probably getting married and had to be there, they got up and walked out on Monsignor. So, that's just as bad. IMO.

"we didn't go to church to get preached to!"

some people can not handle correction
it is sad that they did not repent of their sins and beg God for mercy
but it is better they walk out then commit sacrilege by receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord while in a state of sin

grandvizier1006 · May 3, 2016

Rhamiel said:
"we didn't go to church to get preached to!"

some people can not handle correction
it is sad that they did not repent of their sins and beg God for mercy
but it is better they walk out then commit sacrilege by receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord while in a state of sin

To be fair, most people are in varying states of sin, unrepentant or otherwise.

Rhamiel · May 3, 2016

grandvizier1006 said:
To be fair, most people are in varying states of sin, unrepentant or otherwise.

oh very true
I am a sinner
not in some abstract sense
there are several things that I regularly do that I know are wrong
but I am not going to walk out of a church because the truth is being preached
if I am over the top please tell me, it is hard for me to tell sometimes

and this is a bit off topic, maybe I should have sent this in a PM
but I really appreciate your contributions to this site, you are always very level headed

God bless you my dear brother in Christ

Miss Shelby · May 3, 2016

MikeK said:
It is possible that you're right. I can say that none of the homosexuals I know really care much at all about what the Church teaches.

I do have a bisexual friend who is the daughter of a former Brother. She is agnostic at best but is one of the best scholars of the Church that I personally know. She quotes the Summa with ease. She is what some people on this board would call a radical feminist (they'd be wrong, but whatevs). Even she doesn't want the Church to change...she just thinks it's interesting and a bit silly.

I am encouraged to know there are individuals like that..

Starting another paragraph because have you ever heard of Milo? Milo Yanopollloss. Haha I don't know how to spell his last name. But politically speaking he would be like your bisexual friend. Well maybe. But do Google him . he is a riot. Probably I haven't given you the correct spelling of his name, but I am sure you'll find him.

grandvizier1006 · May 3, 2016

Miss Shelby said:
I am encouraged to know there are individuals like that..

Starting another paragraph because have you ever heard of Milo? Milo Yanopollloss. Haha I don't know how to spell his last name. But politically speaking he would be like your bisexual friend. Well maybe. But do Google him . he is a riot. Probably I haven't given you the correct spelling of his name, but I am sure you'll find him.

I think it's spelled Yianopolous. And I think more homosexuals would be willing to be celibate if they had a loving church family they could feel like they belonged to. We have to let them know that love has many manifestations, and "love in all it's forms" isn't just a marital or sexual thing.

Miss Shelby · May 3, 2016

grandvizier1006 said:
I think it's spelled Yianopolous. And I think more homosexuals would be willing to be celibate if they had a loving church family they could feel like they belonged to. We have to let them know that love has many manifestations, and "love in all it's forms" isn't just a marital or sexual thing.

There are organizations such as this that exist. I cannot think of the name of it but it has many naysayers. Fact of the matter, most people, gays mostly , accuse these support groups as being hateful. Truth is, support for these things that will be successful will be unsung and not well known. Hide your light under a bushel.

Sumwear · May 3, 2016

MikeK said:
It is possible that you're right. I can say that none of the homosexuals I know really care much at all about what the Church teaches.

I do have a bisexual friend who is the daughter of a former Brother. She is agnostic at best but is one of the best scholars of the Church that I personally know. She quotes the Summa with ease. She is what some people on this board would call a radical feminist (they'd be wrong, but whatevs). Even she doesn't want the Church to change...she just thinks it's interesting and a bit silly.

If I recall correctly, 60% of homosexuals say religion plays an important part in their life. I think it was an article from Cracked.

grandvizier1006 · May 3, 2016

Sumwear said:
If I recall correctly, 60% of homosexuals say religion plays an important part in their life. I think it was an article from Cracked.

Cracked isn't a reliable source. I wouldn't be surprised that many gay people have some religious affiliation, or at least a nominal one.

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