Believe the Bible - bend the Bible - deny the Bible... pick one

Which do you choose -

  • Believe the Bible as written

    Votes: 25 69.4%
  • Bend the Bible to make it fit preferences

    Votes: 3 8.3%
  • Deny the Bible - declare that it is the work of mere man

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • Plead the 5th

    Votes: 4 11.1%

  • Total voters
    36

BobRyan

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By the same token, salvation, belief in God, a relationship with God, doesn't require belief in the perfection of the books that comprise the Bible.

Certainly not for Hindus, Buddhists etc. But for those who read the Bible and accept its statements on what scripture is - "inspired by God" and "not subject to private spin doctoring" -- it is "The Word of God" - 2Tim 3:16, 2Pet 1:19-21

The bible IS the private interpretation about God and history on the part of those men who wrote it. It's lots of conflicting interpretation by lots of different MEN.

Here again you merely quote "you".

AS if we would take "you" as our religious text.

By contrast the Bible says this -
"20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter

Your opposition to both OT and NT -- noted.

And to be fair -- that is the sort of anti-bible position that belief in evolutionism over the Bible - would require.

Christianity is largely the private interpretation on the part of Paul about Jesus. The focus shifted from the original gospel of Jesus to a religion about Jesus.

How many books of the Bible do you think Jesus wrote?
 
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BobRyan

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Genesis says that God created. It does not say HOW he created

Genesis says it is in a real 7 day week - with evening and morning for each day and "legal code" also confirms this in Ex 20:11.

So we know the time frame for it -- and that God "Spoke" and each set of events occur in that time-boxed Chronological - 7 day sequence.

But we don't know "how" that can happen such that "we can do that in a lab" or any such thing.

, and that could have been by evolution.

The idea that there is an evolutionist text claiming that evolution happened in 7 days with the sun coming into being after plants - is an exercise in fiction.

There are a great many sources saying this is NOT evolutionism Ex 20:8-11
SIX days you shall labor...11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


And as for "what the text says - what is the intended meaning of Genesis 1-11"

Well -- apparently the professors of Hebrew language and OT studies in all world-class universities have a fairly consistent statement on what is 'intended by the text'. Apr 17, 2016 #6

Sorry, I don't know if I'm being particularly dense or if English is your second language, but I don't understand what you are saying.

If your point is that those who believe the Bible cannot believe evolution, then please say so

My point is that "what the text of the Bible says" is pretty obvious - even to atheists according to James Barr -- and I believe Colte and Hoghead1 have both posted on these threads affirming that the text is pretty easy to read - and easy to see what it is saying - even though they reject it's accuracy in fact.

Hint - post #2 of this thread.
Apr 17, 2016 #2

Darwinism/evolutionism at war with Christianity - by being at war with statements made in the Bible about origins and various other topics.

Some argue that we should simply toss the Bible under a bus anytime the best interest of evolutionism is not served. But on what basis? And at what cost?
 
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Colter

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Certainly not for Hindus, Buddhists etc. But for those who read the Bible and accept its statements on what scripture is - "inspired by God" and "not subject to private spin doctoring" -- it is "The Word of God" - 2Tim 3:16, 2Pet 1:19-21



Here again you merely quote "you".

AS if we would take "you" as our religious text.

By contrast the Bible says this -
"20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter

Your opposition to both OT and NT -- noted.

And to be fair -- that is the sort of anti-bible position that belief in evolutionism over the Bible - would require.



How many books of the Bible do you think Jesus wrote?
Jesus left no writings and for good reason, he didn't want anything that would become a fetish. But we managed to make the writings of holy men into a fetish anyway, stunting the spiritual and intellectual growth of bible worshipers.
 
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BobRyan

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Jesus left no writings .

So then when you want to talk about the teaching of Jesus - you either need the video/DVD/ or... read the Bible and see what the Bible writers said.

Which is why we prefer the Bible to just "making stuff up"
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So then when you want to talk about the teaching of Jesus - you either need the video/DVD/ or... read the Bible and see what the Bible writers said.

Which is why we prefer the Bible to just "making stuff up"
That is what I say.

Luke 18:31 Beside-getting yet the twelve, He said toward them "Behold, we are ascending into Jerusalem and shall be being finished, all the having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772) thru the prophets, to the Son of the Man"

Luke 24:44
He said yet toward them "these the words of Me which I speak toward ye still being together ye, that is binding to be fulfilled all the having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772) in the Law of Moses, and the prophets and psalms about Me".

Acts 13:29
As yet they finish all-things about Him having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772,) according-lifting from the cross/wood they place into a tomb.

Revelation 1:3
Happy/Blessed the one reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723), and the ones hearing the Words of this Prophecy, and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
for the time is nigh/egguV <1451>.


Luke 21:22
That days of vengeance these are, to be fulfilled all that has having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772).





.
 
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BobRyan

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Amen! I used to be an atheist. Then I started to believe the Bible. Jesus was right that I shouldn't be a hypocrite. I found myself agreeing with Jesus.

You end up agreeing with him enough, you end up believing! :D

Thanks for your post!

Great post. Great testimony.

Thanks for posting that!

(Hope you don't mind if I share your post on one or two other threads)
 
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BobRyan

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When it comes to "stories easy enough to make up" are they more "believable" - if they are accompanied by pictures?


"stories easy enough to tell - but they are not science" - Collin Patterson - atheist evolutionist - scientist

Collin Patterson - Paleontologist British Museum of Natural history


On April 10, 1979, Patterson replied to the author (Sunderland) in a most candid letter as follows:


April 10, 1979 Letter from Colin Patterson to Sunderland
======================================================

“ I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them.

You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic license, would that not mislead the reader?

I wrote the text of my book four years ago. If I were to write it now, I think the book would be rather different. Gradualism is a concept I believe in, not just because of Darwin’s authority, but because my understanding of genetics seems to demand it.

Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils. As a paleontologist myself, I am much occupied with the philosophical problems of identifying ancestral forms in the fossil record.

You say thatI should at least show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived. I will lay it on the line- there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.[The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test. So, much as I should like to oblige you by jumping to the defence of gradualism, and fleshing out the transitions between the major types of animals and plants, I find myself a bit short of the intellectual justification necessary for the job “

[Ref: Patterson, personal communication. Documented in Darwin’s Enigma, Luther Sunderland, Master Books, El Cajon, CA, 1988, pp. 88-90.]

============================

It's not "junk science" to sincere truth seekers. ..
It is a fact that the fossil record deposited over many different ages show signs of diverse life that lived at different times. That alone, without evolutionary speculation contradicts the Hebrews guesswork in Genesis.

Patterson said:
I will lay it on the line- there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.[The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science,
 
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BobRyan

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And yes, the creation story was basically made up, it was written by the arrogant chosen people for the arrogant chosen people. Jesus never said we should attach his gospel to the Old Testament.

Jesus quotes the OT text as written by Moses - and also affirms the "details" of marriage in Genesis 2 -- instead of the wildly abusive-to-the-text "story was basically made up, it was written by the arrogant chosen people".

Still - you have this one point in your favor -- your "attack the Bible first" solution in defense of blind-faith evolutionism is much-predicted and Darwin himself confessed to this fact.
 
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Colter

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Jesus quotes the OT text as written by Moses - and also affirms the "details" of marriage in Genesis 2 -- instead of the wildly abusive-to-the-text "story was basically made up, it was written by the arrogant chosen people".

Still - you have this one point in your favor -- your "attack the Bible first" solution in defense of blind-faith evolutionism is much-predicted and Darwin himself confessed to this fact.
I could rewrite my own family history into a wildly exaggerated, miraculous tale by including the teachings of various prophets for validation. Ironically, it was the same elite priestly writer class that abused and murdered some of the prophets that they hijacked to legitimize their odyssey.
 
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Colter

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heavens no! The men of the church are infallible, together they are God, never to be questioned or disagreed with.

God only lets them commit sex crimes against children, he would NEVER allow them to write imperfect history books.:doh:

Catholic Church sexual abuse cases.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_casesOh
 
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BobRyan

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And yes, the creation story was basically made up, it was written by the arrogant chosen people for the arrogant chosen people. Jesus never said we should attach his gospel to the Old Testament.

Jesus quotes the OT text as written by Moses - and also affirms the "details" of marriage in Genesis 2 -- instead of the wildly abusive-to-the-text "story was basically made up, it was written by the arrogant chosen people".

Still - you have this one point in your favor -- your "attack the Bible first" solution in defense of blind-faith evolutionism is much-predicted and Darwin himself confessed to this fact.

I could rewrite my own family history into a wildly exaggerated, miraculous tale by including the teachings of various prophets for validation. Ironically, it was the same elite priestly writer class that abused and murdered some of the prophets that they hijacked to legitimize their odyssey.

What atheist could not also share such a story about his own abilities.

By contrast the Bible is the Word of God.

We see the Bible predict 2300 years of human history in Dan 8.
490 years of human history in Daniel 9 -- confirmed with the coming of Christ.
1260 years of the dark ages - in Daniel 7.

The Bible is the inspired Word of God - according to Christ in Mark 7:6-13

"Commandment of God" = "Moses said" = "Word of God" in Mark 7 -- according to Christ.

but as you point out - atheists don't go for that. Certainly not Darwin.

And your trashing of the Bible - is not at all unlike Darwin's once he came to full-faith in blind faith evolutionism.

Shall we all just toss away our Bibles in favor of a "story" claiming that "a single celled animal (Amoeba) - will sure-enough turn into a horse over time, given a sufficiently talented amoeba - and a sufficiently talented and long period of time filled with improbable just-so stories""??


I find a certain paucity in your logic just then.

Is it your claim that we all need to be Catholic priests if we are going to reject the wild myth that claims "a single celled animal (Amoeba) - will sure-enough turn into a horse over time, given a sufficiently talented amoeba - and a sufficiently talented and long period of time filled with improbable just-so stories""??
 
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BobRyan

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how often do you find atheists, agnostics - urantia groups, and those who deny the virgin birth - all lining up to oppose what the Bible says in Ex 20:8-11 and Genesis 1:2-2:4 about the 7 day creation week?

How often do they NOT??
 
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BobRyan

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Note the Romans 1 point made about the pagans that have no Bible at all - being convicted by the observations in nature - "the things that have been made" -- since the "creation of the World" -- by God - the Creator.

The fact that even these pagans without any bible at all could see in nature "The things that have been made" by God - and even 'they' are "without excuse" - means that God not only knows that Christians see nature as the work of the Creator - but even those with no Bible at all are convicted on that point as they observe nature.

Thus the rejection of the Romans 1 teaching that the handiwork of God is clearly seen in "the things that have been made" -- is a "distinctively atheist" POV.

As for the gross equivocation that all groups in Romans 2 are that 1 pagan group in Romans 1-- context does not support it.

in Romans 1 there are the saints and the pagans. In Romans 2 there are the Jews and the Gentiles.

Details matter.
 
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Colter

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Note the Romans 1 point made about the pagans that have no Bible at all - being convicted by the observations in nature - "the things that have been made" -- since the "creation of the World" -- by God - the Creator.

The fact that even these pagans without any bible at all could see in nature "The things that have been made" by God - and even 'they' are "without excuse" - means that God not only knows that Christians see nature as the work of the Creator - but even those with no Bible at all are convicted on that point as they observe nature.

Thus the rejection of the Romans 1 teaching that the handiwork of God is clearly seen in "the things that have been made" -- is a "distinctively atheist" POV.

As for the gross equivocation that all groups in Romans 2 are that 1 pagan group in Romans 1-- context does not support it.

in Romans 1 there are the saints and the pagans. In Romans 2 there are the Jews and the Gentiles.

Details matter.
The things of nature were created through the technique of evolution.
 
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Colter

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Not according to the Bible
Yes that's true, the authors of the Bible were just trying to create a wholesale story for public consumption for the average Israelite. It worked, the creation explanation and the fictional miraculous history became the preservative for the agreement between Melchizedek and Abraham. It became tradition like Christmas is for Christians.
 
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BobRyan

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Yes that's true, the authors of the Bible were just trying to create a wholesale story for public consumption for the average Israelite. It worked, the creation explanation and the fictional miraculous history became the preservative for the agreement between Melchizedek and Abraham. It became tradition like Christmas is for Christians.

Many atheists do view the Bible that way -- certainly we can all agree to that.

But Bible believing Christians - are more likely to take the Word of God seriously.

So then you do not argue for bending the Bible - just for ignoring it altogether --
 
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Colter

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Many atheists do view the Bible that way -- certainly we can all agree to that.

But Bible believing Christians - are more likely to take the Word of God seriously.

So then you do not argue for bending the Bible - just for ignoring it altogether --
You are the victim of "black and white thinking". The religious people who rejected Jesus were that way.

I'm a God believing Christian, I take the writings of the people who killed Jesus for what they are.
 
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sculleywr

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You are the victim of "black and white thinking". The religious people who rejected Jesus were that way.

I'm a God believing Christian, I take the writings of the people who killed Jesus for what they are.
He's also a guy who will reject portions of the Bible which flat-out disagree with him no matter what he says about his belief in the Bible. So his disapproval of those who interpret the Bible differently than he is quite anachronistic, at best.
 
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