How comes Catholics Bless Mary?

Rick Otto · Apr 30, 2016

antletems said:
How do you know they cannot hear us?

lol,... pay attention, bro... you got it backwards here... I was asking about them praying to us. If we can pray to them, if they can "witness" us in that way, why can't we hear and see them?
It is assumed they can see & hear us using the word "witness", but not explained why we can't see or hear them.

Erose · Apr 30, 2016

Albion said:
I don't know how a statement like this can be taken seriously, Erose. It's not that we can't make reasonable guesses, based upon personal observation, but we can't say with any assurance that even uncanonized people known to be wonderful in many ways are indeed in heaven.

Why do you make that assumption? Actually instead of a guess, I would call it faith. If my grand pa isn't in heaven, then there aren't many getting there.

Albion said:
Of course, but it is an educated guess...and I might add that your church insists that a recently deceased person, no matter how good he has seemed to have been, is in Purgatory.

Actually that isn't true, not all have to go through an after death purging to get to heaven. Those included are they, who die a martyr's death, those who die in a high level of sanctity, those who die right after baptism before they have a chance to sin, baptized babies and the severely mentally disabled, and those who have endured enough purging here on earth, which I believe my grandpa did.

Erose · Apr 30, 2016

Rick Otto said:
lol,... pay attention, bro... you got it backwards here... I was asking about them praying to us. If we can pray to them, if they can "witness" us in that way, why can't we hear and see them?
It is assumed they can see & hear us using the word "witness", but not explained why we can't see or hear them.

Well you can't see or hear them, because they don't have bodies for us to see, nor vocal cords to make sounds to hear. Except in unique situations, they can only communicate to us as the Angels and the Holy Spirit does.

Rick Otto · Apr 30, 2016

QUOTE="antletems, post: 69573932, member: 379869"]Patently untrue to you as a non Catholic.

No, just generally untrue and childishly naive - beyond the pale of common sense.
Take another look, context doesn't redeem this statement of yours: "This is why people wont accept the 'Catholic' way. They want the wide gate, the 'Easy' way!!!."
The Catholic Church membership is the broadest in Christendom, not the narrowest. It is chock full of groups that protest its own doctrines. Millions of Catholics only attend on Christmas and Easter. What could be easier than to have a magisterial elite take upon themselves, your responsibility for understanding scripture?

As for 'victims' well, every denomination has had its 'victims' as you put it.

Everybody doing it does not make it OK with me.

The church has been attacked and attacked and ridiculed etc but still it stands, Still it works with the Holy Spirit to this day.

Yeah, I've heard that one too. It has also attacked and attacked and ridiculed. I believe the HS works with individuals no matter what their denomination or lack of one.

Knowing that Jesus said he would not desert 'his' church, the Catholic Church we can stand in union with Him.

Keep repeating that.

There are 1,000s of denominations out there with no backbone, no structure, no history and no strength. Being a Catholic, a Christian is not easy.

Some say impossible. Catholic backbone is national state sovereignty with international treaty power. Christian backbone is faith in God.
The Vatican is the "perfect" marriage of church and state - perfectly perverse.

Standing amid insults etc knowing that Jesus is carrying us all on our journey is so warming and inspiring.

Kick me harder, I can't feel the pain any more.

Goatee · Apr 30, 2016

Rick Otto said:
No, just generally untrue and childishly naive - beyond the pale of common sense.
Take another look, context doesn't redeem this statement of yours: "This is why people wont accept the 'Catholic' way. They want the wide gate, the 'Easy' way!!!."
The Catholic Church membership is the broadest in Christendom, not the narrowest. It is chock full of groups that protest its own doctrines. Millions of Catholics only attend on Christmas and Easter. What could be easier than to have a magisterial elite take upon themselves, your responsibility for understanding scripture?

Everybody doing it does not make it OK with me.

Yeah, I've heard that one too. It has also attacked and attacked and ridiculed. I believe the HS works with individuals no matter what their denomination or lack of one.

Keep repeating that.

Some say impossible. Catholic backbone is national state sovereignty with international treaty power. Christian backbone is faith in God.
The Vatican is the "perfect" marriage of church and state - perfectly perverse.

Kick me harder, I can't feel the pain any more.

God bless you buddy. I hope that one day you will learn about the Catholic church properly without reading into it with blinkered views. I guess you are one of those that picks bits and pieces from the Bible, from other denominations and marries them into an alien shape to suit your own individual ideal, ideas and beliefs!

You should read Scott Hahns book 'Rome Sweet Home'. This was a man, much like you, who through most of his early life hated everything about the Catholic church and its beliefs etc etc. He the saw the light!! Read it and it may help you understand how wrong you are in your views on the Catholic church.

http://www.christianbook.com/rome-s...tholicism/scott-hahn/9780898704785/pd/8704782

God Bless you buddy

Albion · Apr 30, 2016

Erose said:
Why do you make that assumption?

What assumption?

Actually instead of a guess, I would call it faith. If my grand pa isn't in heaven, then there aren't many getting there.

From all that we know, many AREN'T getting there.

Actually that isn't true, not all have to go through an after death purging to get to heaven. Those included are they, who die a martyr's death, those who die in a high level of sanctity, those who die right after baptism before they have a chance to sin, baptized babies and the severely mentally disabled, and those who have endured enough purging here on earth, which I believe my grandpa did.

Your loyalty to your grandfather is admirable, but the likelihood of him being in that category, given that your church teaches that we have to suffer in Purgatory for sins that have already been forgiven, makes him one in a million.

Rick Otto · Apr 30, 2016

QUOTE="antletems, post: 69575399, member: 379869"]God bless you buddy. I hope that one day you will learn about the Catholic church properly without reading into it with blinkered views.

I hope the same for you.

I guess you are one of those that picks bits and pieces from the Bible, from other denominations and marries them into an alien shape to suit your own individual ideal, ideas and beliefs!

I guess you are too.

You should read Scott Hahns book 'Rome Sweet Home'. This was a man, much like you, who through most of his early life hated everything about the Catholic church and its beliefs etc etc. He the saw the light!!

I don't hate everything about the Catholic church, thinking that helps rationalize your unthinking love for it.

God Bless you buddy

Erose · Apr 30, 2016

Albion said:
What assumption?

Yours.

Albion said:
Your loyalty to your grandfather is admirable, but the likelihood of him being in that category, given that your church teaches that we have to suffer in Purgatory for sins that have already been forgiven, makes him one in a million.

Why one in a million? Here is were the point I made earlier is displayed. You don't know my grandfather, nor do you know what he endured before he died either. That is the point.

My grandfather went through purgatory right before my and my entire family's eyes. You see purgatory doesn't have to be after our passing. It can very well be in this life, through the sufferings we endure.

Anyway, it looks like you understand now the importance of the process of canonization. At least that is something.

Goatee · May 1, 2016

Erose said:
Yours.

Why one in a million? Here is were the point I made earlier is displayed. You don't know my grandfather, nor do you know what he endured before he died either. That is the point.

My grandfather went through purgatory right before my and my entire family's eyes. You see purgatory doesn't have to be after our passing. It can very well be in this life, through the sufferings we endure.

Anyway, it looks like you understand now the importance of the process of canonization. At least that is something.

Agreed

Albion · May 1, 2016

Erose said:
Why one in a million?

Let's just say 'extremely rare', just like some of the other exceptions to the rule that you referred to.

Anyway, it looks like you understand now the importance of the process of canonization.

I was merely putting it in terms that you accept, since my point was that your belief about this is at odds with the teaching of your own church.

Rick Otto · May 1, 2016

antletems said:
Agreed

But he didn't ask whose assumption, he asked what assumption.

Linet Kihonge · May 1, 2016

Rick Otto said:
But he didn't ask whose assumption, he asked what assumption.

Why is it hard to debunk RCC?

1: Evidence canonized Saints have answered prayers.
2. Holy Mary made an appearance and someone had a lump removed by the "Blessed Virgin."
3. Someone was called by Mary into a ministry.

What do you do? We sound like we are missing out on the real stuff!!! :/

Erose · May 1, 2016

Linet Kihonge said:
Why is it hard to debunk RCC?

1: Evidence canonized Saints have answered prayers.
2. Holy Mary made an appearance and someone had a lump removed by the "Blessed Virgin."
3. Someone was called by Mary into a ministry.

What do you do? We sound like we are missing out on the real stuff!!! :/

That what happens when you don't have the fullness of faith. [emoji56]

Linet Kihonge · May 2, 2016

Let me get this right. Scripture did not end in Revelations, right? Because if God used Saints back then in writing scripture, it wouldn't add up why he would stop doing so even after John's writings. So everything taught in RCC is a continuation of the bible's inspirations meaning the Spirit lives on!

I understand where you are coming from.

The only question I would like answered is... How comes no one prayed to the departed saints whether in NT or Old Testament? You say, how scripture cross references itself. If David pleaded for a lenient judgement so did Paul esp. for the ones they knew deserved a place with God. So if the traditions taught by Fathers were cross referenced with scripture what practices would be backed up???

Goatee · May 2, 2016

Jesus brought a new covenant. New ways. The Apostles were filled with new teaching. Obviously loads that were not written down. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would help them when they needed to teach or answer questions.

For me, as a Catholic, the Holy Spirit has continued to help the church throughout history. Jesus is as much alive as he was in the NT. The church grows. The 'Core' beliefs have always remained the same.

Beware of false prophets Jesus said. His Church is saved through him. Its teachings too. 'Tradition' continues through the church. Its many Saints have continued to teach us.

The Church of Jesus is very much alive. It continues to feed the sheep.

Many disagree with this but they are 'locked' into the thoughts and beliefs of the 1,000s of denominations who have sprung up because of the narrow way that is just too hard for them to follow.

Jesus said he would not desert His Church, the Catholic Church.

Roman Catholic is not a term used by the Church. It was invented to mock the Catholics a couple of hundred years ago by the Anglicans.

Linet Kihonge · May 2, 2016

Hi, I know the New covenant and the new teachings brought about by the apostles and Christ himself. Things that were once forbidden by the Laws of Moses became permissible including the cleansing of all kinds of food. Laws that required vindication of a sinful Israelite became the cancelled debts through the power of the blood of the lamb. Yes, the new teachings were in deed a part of the Bible... just changed to mark the "Promise of life" as promised by the LORD himself!!! So none of the apostolic practices indicated a practice that was outside the scripture or not practiced in scripture before!!! Otherwise, it's high time we know, "Is scripture relevant in approving anything?"

The miracles and events that happened during Christ's time were events that were consistent with events written in the bible. So it doesn't mean there were many new things that happened during Christ's time that were not written but rather too many things that were of a miraculous nature but not any stranger than those that happened then!!!

Also, if you've read Matthew 27: 46-48, (about Jews wondering if Christ was calling upon Elijah), I know it indicated the prayer to Saints already in heaven. However, it's sad that it did not seem to support Christ's teachings or any of the other traditions consistent with the "ritual." It seemed like there was a Judaist tradition to pray to Saints already in heaven or believed to be in heaven. Still, it only confirms that there could have been other Jewish "denominations" just as we have other denominations. If you were to observe some of the letters written by different apostles you will notice a mention of different teachings from the ones taught by any of them. All I'm saying is this, some of the traditions passed on from one Bishop to the next Father seemed to have originated from a Judaist tradition then incorporated with Christianity.

So whatever RCC does is nothing NEW in as far as scripture is of Concern but I wonder why none of the Apostles applauded it!!!

Albion · May 2, 2016

Erose said:
I already did. You made the statement that my church teaches that all go through purgatory. I gave you quite a few examples when this isn't the case. So yes I have showed you were you are wrong first.

I took your word for that but made the quite fair comment that you and I still do not know whom the very few people are who might not experience Purgatory (also assuming that the RCC's teachings on that subject are correct). This is something which is unknown to us merely through having observed their lives. Yet you argue that it's all right to pray to them.

Linet Kihonge · May 2, 2016

Wait a second???

Are you (Catholics) saying if you have faith that someone is in heaven it's okay to pray to them? How do you know it's the venerated Saints that answer prayers in the first place???

Erose · May 2, 2016

Linet Kihonge said:
Wait a second???

Are you (Catholics) saying if you have faith that someone is in heaven it's okay to pray to them? How do you know it's the venerated Saints that answer prayers in the first place???

Is it not by faith that you believe in God and that there is a heaven? I find it strange that having faith is an issue here.

Goatee · May 2, 2016

Linet Kihonge said:
Wait a second???

Are you (Catholics) saying if you have faith that someone is in heaven it's okay to pray to them? How do you know it's the venerated Saints that answer prayers in the first place???

I believe because i have faith. I believe because the Catholic Church teaches this. I believe because the Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church as Jesus said it would.

How comes Catholics Bless Mary?

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