The 10 Commandments are done away!

PsychoeDial said:

That's a lie.

The commands against adultery and murder are all about love. If the husband loves his wife, the wife loves her husband, they DO NOT commit adultery. Loving one's neighbor as one's self precludes the desire to MURDER!
Please let all the Saints of God read that bolded admission by Sophrosyne carefully. I bolded it just so it could not be missed.
1 John 4:20
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

Remember sisters and brothers also, Matthew 7:22

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Jesus wouldn't have had to make a statements about hate and lust to Jews that were adults taught from birth about the 10 commandments if they already were taught that the commandments were about love in the first place they would have already known about it and not needed to be reminded.

Sophrosyne said:

Jesus wouldn't have had to make a statements about hate and lust to Jews that were adults taught from birth about the 10 commandments if they already were taught that the commandments were about love in the first place they would have already known about it and not needed to be reminded.

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In case you missed it, the Jews were as far from a true understanding of worshipping God as they could get... the reason why Jesus came to fulfill the Law and not abolish it was that the understanding the Jews should have learned from God's Law, they didn't, but instead made it burdensome. Jesus came to give a proper understanding of what the Law was to teach but failed to.... that was the failure of the Sinai covenant, not on God's part but on the Jews'.

Is there agreement that any Biblical covenant is sealed through a blood sacrifice?

Four Angels Standing said:

I do believe you're speaking to someone else. You're not taking into context all that I've posted here.

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Your question was answered in post #488.Rom 5:12-14 say Sin was in the world before the law. You responded by defining the word Imputed. Then your commentary established another contradiction of these scriptures, that God's law was when He said to Adam " thou shall not...".
What's is clear is: you're contradicting what's written. And when confronted with scriptures, you ignore and double down on contradictions.

Cribstyl said:

Your question was answered in post #488.Rom 5:12-14 say Sin was in the world before the law. You responded by defining the word Imputed. Then your commentary established another contradiction of these scriptures, that God's law was when He said to Adam " thou shall not...".
What's is clear is: you're contradicting what's written. And when confronted with scriptures, you ignore and double down on contradictions.

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You betcha I'll contradict what is written by people here who hope to spread a false teaching using God's word as vehicle for it.
Thanks for noticing.

EastCoastRemnant said:

In case you missed it, the Jews were as far from a true understanding of worshipping God as they could get... the reason why Jesus came to fulfill the Law and not abolish it was that the understanding the Jews should have learned from God's Law, they didn't, but instead made it burdensome. Jesus came to give a proper understanding of what the Law was to teach but failed to.... that was the failure of the Sinai covenant, not on God's part but on the Jews'.

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Interesting, here I thought Jesus came to save mankind. If it were to to give proper understanding of what the law was to teach Jesus failed in His mission. If He came to give proper understanding pf the old why did He instead usher in the new and better covenant and include all mankind?

It seems like all the scripture written by Paul and John about the Christians duty is for naught in the minds of those who believe they are under parts old covenant law. They will not believe Paul's writings concerning the temporary status of the 10 commandment nor the simple texts written by John on the duty of Christians.

No, Jesus purpose was not to teach the proper understanding of the old covenant. His blood ushered in the new covenant of grace and love. His command is for us to love out fellow man as He loves us.

Thanks for your consideration.

Four Angels Standing said:

You betcha I'll contradict what is written by people here who hope to spread a false teaching using God's word as vehicle for it.
Thanks for noticing.

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You're saying the law begun with Adam and scriptures is saying the law begun with Moses. How dare you.

Cribstyl said:

You're saying the law begun with Adam and scriptures is saying the law begun with Moses. How dare you.

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My dear what you repeatedly demonstrate is your lack of understanding about the law itself.

The law wasn't the law of Moses!


It was the laws of GOD!
Sin began with Adam and Eve! The obedience required to stay pure and free from sin originated with GOD and his first commandment in the garden to them.
How do you defend the scriptural ten commandments that begin with, thou shalt not.... And ignore the fact that in Genesis God told Adam and Eve, thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

The knowledge of good and evil. That fruit is what brought Adam and Eve's consciousness out of that which was one with God and into the world that God created.

EastCoastRemnant said:

In case you missed it, the Jews were as far from a true understanding of worshipping God as they could get... the reason why Jesus came to fulfill the Law and not abolish it was that the understanding the Jews should have learned from God's Law, they didn't, but instead made it burdensome. Jesus came to give a proper understanding of what the Law was to teach but failed to.... that was the failure of the Sinai covenant, not on God's part but on the Jews'.

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So you think that the Jews were dumber than us Christians when it came to the Law and somehow you can keep them better than they did? Good luck on that note, I'm not going to even try to enroll in a school that all the students of it ..... failed.

Four Angels Standing said:

My dear what you repeatedly demonstrate is your lack of understanding about the law itself.

The law wasn't the law of Moses!


It was the laws of GOD!
Sin began with Adam and Eve! The obedience required to stay pure and free from sin originated with GOD and his first commandment in the garden to them.
How do you defend the scriptural ten commandments that begin with, thou shalt not.... And ignore the fact that in Genesis God told Adam and Eve, thou shalt not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

The knowledge of good and evil. That fruit is what brought Adam and Eve's consciousness out of that which was one with God and into the world that God created.

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This is the problem... way too ambiguous IMO when the Law means whatever you wish it to mean instead of anything specific then the word basically means NOTHING in a debate because it is like nailing jello to a moving race car at the Indy 500. When people say the Law means not the Law of Moses and then later says the Law means the Law of Moses (10 commandments) and then says "God's Law" doesn't mean the Law of Moses and then says later "God's Law" means the 10 commandments (Law of Moses) then they are contradicting themselves on the meaning of what they are portraying.

Cribstyl said:

The ones with lack of understanding will say things that are contrary to what is written.

Rom 5:12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
Rom 5:13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break.
Rom 5:14 Still, everyone died—from the time of Adam to the time of Moses—even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come.

They will ignore these facts above and then misinterpret 1John 3:4 to say the definition of sin is breaking the law. (the 10 commandments)

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Exodus 18:16

EastCoastRemnant said:

In case you missed it, the Jews were as far from a true understanding of worshipping God as they could get... the reason why Jesus came to fulfill the Law and not abolish it was that the understanding the Jews should have learned from God's Law, they didn't, but instead made it burdensome. Jesus came to give a proper understanding of what the Law was to teach but failed to.... that was the failure of the Sinai covenant, not on God's part but on the Jews'.

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I missed nothing, you're telling me David had no "true" understanding of worhiping God to which I say... HOGWASH and there were others who were under the Law that I believe had a "TRUE" understanding of worshiping God. What they didn't have was a commandment to love their neighbor or lust or hate in the 10 commandments so equating "not murdering" and "not committing adultery" as anything other than what the 10 commandments said is ludicrous. If God had intended the 10 commandments to be about not hating and not lusting he would have written exactly that on the stone tablets unless you think God is stupid not to say what he means in the first place.

Four Angels Standing said:

Exodus 18:16

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What's your point???

Cribstyl said:

I take issue with teachers who present commentary that contradicts what scriptures teach. <SE>

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Hardly so.
And when you believe the Mosaic law is so named because Moses gave the law on Mt.Sinai you are not only mistaken but hardly qualified to criticize when it becomes apparent you haven't read Exodus.

Did I say it was Moses' law? No I did not.

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Numerous times. In fact you even rested your case , doing so in four words, after it was told you that we are not talking about Moses giving the law.

My first and only respond to you ever is to your question.

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Not in the least.

SIN was in the world before the law was given. ??????

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One question mark would suffice.
I did answer. As any Bible reading Christian knows sin was in the world when Adam and Eve disobeyed the commandment of God to not partake of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In fact, sin was in the world the moment the greatest sinner of all fell to earth and continues even now to roam the planet seeking souls to devour. It was his entering into the garden that caused the domino effect of events which led newborn innocents to disobey the Father.To sin, by definition.
The ten commandments are known as the moral laws of God. From there all other laws followed.
The moral law concerned God's will for human behavior, conduct, obedience to God's will. And it did exist before Sinai.
That's why God laid down the law of obedience regarding the tree of knowledge. And the permission he gave to eat of all other tree's fruit, save that one.

As to the law of God? Did you not click that link? Exodus 18:16. I'll give you the text to avoid missing that link click a second time.
When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.
God's laws were promulgated on Sinai.
To preempt the possible argument that this, Exodus 18:16, occurred after God gave Moses the law on mount Sinai , it did not. Sinai occurred in Chapter 19 of Exodus.

Bob S said:

Interesting, here I thought Jesus came to save mankind. If it were to to give proper understanding of what the law was to teach Jesus failed in His mission. If He came to give proper understanding pf the old why did He instead usher in the new and better covenant and include all mankind?

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Well, He must have given proper understanding if some of us can understand.

Jesus indeed came to save mankind and He accomplished that on the cross and through the resurrection. This does not negate all the other teachings Jesus gave to us... fail on the strawman I'm afraid.

It seems like all the scripture written by Paul and John about the Christians duty is for naught in the minds of those who believe they are under parts old covenant law. They will not believe Paul's writings concerning the temporary status of the 10 commandment nor the simple texts written by John on the duty of Christians.

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Actually, from our perspective, the scriptures by both Joihn and Paul are valuable instruction for understanding the proper way of obeying God... not for favour as the Jews did but for obedience through submission, for His good pleasure. You see, Satan didn't like God's rules either and convinced 1/3 on the angels that the rules were not able to be kept willingly and obediently. We are to prove, that even with his (satans) best attempts to dissuade us, that through Christ's righteousness, we willingly and obediently can.

No, Jesus purpose was not to teach the proper understanding of the old covenant. His blood ushered in the new covenant of grace and love.

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I'm glad you brought this subject up about His blood and the covenant. I asked this in another thread I believe but no one responded... maybe you will.

Any covenant made between God and us is sealed by a blood sacrifice, I think we can agree on that. That means that every particular of that covenant has to be declared before the covenant is sealed. Example, the Sinai covenant was agreed upon and sealed with a blood offering. Please show us where Jesus rescinded the still valid covenant before His death, sealing the new covenant?

All that Christ spoke about prior to the new covenant being enacted was how the Law was to be better understood and applied. This is what Paul is making a differentiation between. The old understanding vs the new that Jesus gave to us. The amount of mention of the Sabbath after the new covenant was sealed leaves no doubt that it was not done away with but magnified and understood the way He hoped the Sinai would.

The 2 great commandments are a summation of the better understood 10. The first four relate to God and the last 6 relate to our neighbour.

His command is for us to love out fellow man as He loves us.

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Amen!! Also to love God... and what does the bible say, if you love me, keep my commandments. You see, the ten, better understood, could be boiled down to the essence of the two, which is love. God is Love and everything He has ever done OT or NT has been with that never changing character of love... as I said previous, the failure of the old covenant was with the Jews' understanding of what is signified and through idolatry, apostasy and traditions, made it unrecognizable to what God intended.

Thanks for your consideration.

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Thank you for yours...

Sophrosyne said:

So you think that the Jews were dumber than us Christians when it came to the Law and somehow you can keep them better than they did? Good luck on that note, I'm not going to even try to enroll in a school that all the students of it ..... failed.

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Only because of the Holy Sprit and Christ's righteousness... something the Israelites didn't have. Having been given the proper context and understanding of the Decalogue by Jesus, we now can, through the same power that strengthened Christ to be able to keep them. He is our example in ALL things not just some.

Sophrosyne said:

I missed nothing, you're telling me David had no "true" understanding of worhiping God to which I say... HOGWASH and there were others who were under the Law that I believe had a "TRUE" understanding of worshiping God. What they didn't have was a commandment to love their neighbor or lust or hate in the 10 commandments so equating "not murdering" and "not committing adultery" as anything other than what the 10 commandments said is ludicrous. If God had intended the 10 commandments to be about not hating and not lusting he would have written exactly that on the stone tablets unless you think God is stupid not to say what he means in the first place.

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You are correct, there were those individuals that were close to God that did understand the key to rejoicing in and keeping the Commandments and David was certainly one. I meant as a corporate body, the nation of Israel did not understand or teach it.

jason1 said:

I agree there are more than just 10 commands that define sin, but this is topic of this thread so that is where I started.

In John, love is not a new commandment given, but a refreshed one. The command comes from:

Lev 19:17 ‘Do not hate your brother in your heart. Reprove your neighbour, for certain, and bear no sin because of him.
Lev 19:18 ‘Do not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the children of your people. And you shall love your neighbour as yourself. I am יהוה.

Secondly, the sabbath was not just given to Israel (although the mosaic covenant was). Sabbath was from creation. That being said, you must be part of israel to be in covenant with the Creator. Joining yourself to them is the only path of salvation because only they have the promises. Show me where gentiles have a different covenant if you disagree.

You are also wrong about there being no love in the 10 commandments. They are all about love. Love is not a feeling but a dedication to your Creator and your fellow man. The 10 are the basis on which love is founded.

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Jason1:
"Shall we sin that grace may abound?"
It sounds to me like you are arguing from this point of view. But Paul actually condemns people who argue from this POV in Romans 3:8 "And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just." The reason why he is condemning people of this point of view is that they are not understanding the gospel message and what grace is. Being "saved" according to the NT is being saved from sin. So then, someone who believes in the gospel message becomes the "good tree" that Jesus speaks of who bears good fruit. The concern of the saved person is: being led by the Spirit, rather than following laws.

Paul also wrote "the law is good, if one uses it lawfully" and he speaks of the law as something that leads us to Christ. The law is not for the righteous (those living by faith in Christ) but for the lawbreaker (1 Tim. 1:9). Therefore, the proper usage of the law (the 10 commandments, etc.) is to show us that we stand condemned apart from Christ because we can't fulfill its requirement. Only in Christ do we fulfill it (Rom. 8:4), and this is a walk of faith, which faith is not in our ability to obey the commandments, but faith in Christ's ability to purify us of all sin.
TD

EastCoastRemnant said:

You are correct, there were those individuals that were close to God that did understand the key to rejoicing in and keeping the Commandments and David was certainly one. I meant as a corporate body, the nation of Israel did not understand or teach it.

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Which pretty much defeats the point you were trying to use to uphold the 10 commandments in the first place in that they do not encourage the type of love and worship that you are equating making them useless without Christ and with Christ they are unneeded. Israel as a corporate body is ISRAEL as God made a covenant with NOT just the select ones like David who did break the 10 commandments. Basically put you have a conundrum in that you tout the Law as Holy and tout worship with the Law and then examples of those who worshiped broke the Law such that the Law and worship and love aren't synonymous with each other. To put it bluntly people can worship and love and the law (10 commandments) was just a stumbling block to condemn them constantly of their sinful nature like a husband having a nag for a wife vs a husband that has a loving wife.