Futurist Only Damascus and animals

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keras said in post 240:

. . . the next prophesied event will be the one that 'comes as a thief', unexpected to most everyone, that will destroy the Lord's enemies . . .

Are you thinking of the following verse?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

If so, note that this refers to Jesus' 2nd coming, for:

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief . . .

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

That is, the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming:

1 Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 ¶Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 ¶Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

keras said in post 240:

. . . the next prophesied event will be the one that 'comes as a thief', unexpected to most everyone, that will destroy the Lord's enemies . . .

That brings to mind the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view, which feels that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what is called a home invasion, which is quite obvious, and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean that he will come secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43-44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean that his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means that he will come even upon Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still watching (staying awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his 2nd coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

Regarding Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

keras said in post 240:

The 7 Seals happen before the last 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation.

That's right, as do the first 6 trumpets' events up to Revelation 9:21.

Revelation chapters 11 to 14 show from 4 different angles the same future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), which will occur after Revelation chapters 6 to 10 and before Revelation chapters 15 to 21, and which will legally end at the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15).

keras said in post 240:

The G/M attack of Ezekiel 38-39 must happen before the Return.

Actually, the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That is why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least 2 major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

Both accounts of the event show that the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the millennium, at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

keras said in post 240:

Jeremiah 49:1-39

Jeremiah 49:1-32 can refer to when the Babylonians (Jeremiah 49:28-30) conquered the entire western Middle East in the 6th century BC and took many of the people there into captivity (e.g. Jeremiah 49:3b,6).

keras said in post 240:

Isaiah 9:14

This, in its context (Isaiah 9:9-14), could refer to the fall of ancient Samaria and the northern kingdom of Israel in 722 BC.

keras said in post 240:

Isaiah 10:17

This, in its context (Isaiah 10:5-34), could have been fulfilled during Sennacherib's invasion in Isaiah chapters 36-37.

keras said in post 240:

Isaiah 29:5-6

This could refer to Jesus' 2nd coming. For compare the flame of devouring fire in Isaiah 29:6b with the 2nd-coming flaming fire in 2 Thessalonians 1:8. And compare the defeat of Jerusalem's enemies in Isaiah 29:7 with the 2nd-coming defeat of Jerusalem's enemies in Zechariah 14:3,12.

keras said in post 240:

Zechariah 3:9b

This refers to what Jesus will do at his 2nd coming (Isaiah 4:4,2, Romans 11:26), just as Zechariah 3:10 refers to the millennium (Micah 4:4,1-3).

keras said in post 240:

Revelation 18:8

Regarding Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18), it represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

keras said in post 240:

Revelation 17:11-17

Regarding Revelation 17:11 saying "he is the eighth, and is of the seven", the 7 heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires which had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10-11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

keras said in post 240:

Revelation 17:11-17

Regarding Revelation 17:12 referring to "ten kings", the 10 kings/horns of the beast in its Antichrist's-empire aspect (Revelation 17:3,12, Revelation 13:1) could be 10 individual men whom the Antichrist will appoint as kings over 10 major nations, which nations could be the 10 horns in Daniel 7:24.

For in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. The 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.
 
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keras

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Rather than just bouncing back and forth with the same old notions, I will just address the critical issue, which is: At the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign, does He at that time judge the world with a Judgement of fire?
This could refer to Jesus' 2nd coming. For compare the flame of devouring fire in Isaiah 29:6b with the 2nd-coming flaming fire in 2 Thessalonians 1:8. And compare the defeat of Jerusalem's enemies in Isaiah 29:7 with the 2nd-coming defeat of Jerusalem's enemies in Zechariah 14:3,12.
You believe, correctly, that there is just one 'coming': visible Return of Jesus. Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11
But you don't see that He will 'come' before that in His vengeance and wrath and will not be seen. At least 3 prophesies actually say He will be hidden on that Day and many others allude to that fact.
You think 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 happens at the Return. But it doesn't, because then; Jesus is only revealed to His own.
Isaiah 29:1-8 cannot refer to the Return, as the survivors are hiding in underground bunkers. How can they see Him on the clouds? The description of all that passage relates to the terrible, literal Day of fiery wrath.
Here are 3 more prophetic passages about that Day of disaster, a day that is totally unrelated to and years before the glorious Return.

Zephaniah 1:14-18 The great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath is near, very near and coming quickly. Listen for the sound of that Day. When it comes, even the warriors will panic and be terrified.
That Day will be a day of great fury, a day of distress and torment, a day of destruction and devastation, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick blackness, a day of the shofar battle call against fortifications and upon all military strength.
Because the people have sinned against the Lord, He will bring a shocking disaster to all those who live in the holy Land. Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung. Their strength and riches will not save them on the Day of the Lord’s fiery wrath, the whole Land will be burnt and devastated. For He will make an end, a horrible end of all who live in the holy Land.


Isaiah 13:9-13 Here comes the Day of the Lord’s wrath; a Day full of fury and the outpoured wrath of the Lord. The whole earth will be devastated and the ungodly people will be destroyed.
On that Day, you will not have any light from the sun, the moon or the stars. The sky will tremble and shudder and the earth will be shaken from is place.
On that Day, humans will become scarce, they will be as rare as fine gold, after the Day of the Lord’s blazing anger.


Isaiah 24:1-13 Be warned, the Lord is about to strip the earth, ruin and devastate it. All the world’s inhabitants, without exception, will be severely affected. For the Lord has spoken this Word: The whole world is defiled by its peoples, they have changed the Laws, ignored the Statutes and broken the everlasting Covenant.
Therefore My curse will consume the earth and its inhabitants will suffer punishment. They are burned up and very few are left. There will no longer be revelry and partying, the sounds of music and song will cease.
The cities and towns will be in chaos, every house locked and the people gone. They will be deserted, with all the roads and bridges destroyed. It will be like that throughout the world, in all the nations, just like an olive tree, beaten and stripped after the harvest.
Ref: NIV, KJV, CJB, REB. Some verses condensed.
THESE are the prophesies that relate to the destruction of Damascus and the virtually total loss of life: humans, animals, birds and fish in all of the holy Land. In no way will that be the case at the Return of Jesus.
 
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keras said in post 242:

At the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign, does He at that time judge the world with a Judgement of fire?

Yes (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

keras said in post 242:

But you don't see that He will 'come' before that in His vengeance and wrath and will not be seen.

Note that nothing requires that.

keras said in post 242:

You think 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 happens at the Return. But it doesn't, because then; Jesus is only revealed to His own.

Note that it doesn't say that he will be revealed only to his own.

keras said in post 242:

Isaiah 29:1-8 cannot refer to the Return, as the survivors are hiding in underground bunkers. How can they see Him on the clouds?

Note that Isaiah 29:1-8 doesn't refer to hiding in underground bunkers:

Isaiah 29:1 ¶Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.
2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.
3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.
5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.
6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.

keras said in post 242:

Isaiah 29:1-8 cannot refer to the Return . . .

It can refer to what will happen right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming:

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle . . .
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

keras said in post 242:

Zephaniah 1:14-18

Zephaniah 1:14 ¶The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

This refers to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. In its context, Zephaniah 1:14-18 was prophesying the destruction of the land of ancient Judah and neighboring countries (Zephaniah 1:4 to 2:5) by the Babylonians in the 6th century BC.

keras said in post 242:

Isaiah 13:9-13

This refers to the 2nd coming.

That is, to properly understand the timing of Isaiah 13:9-13, it must be read in its full context:

Isaiah 13:1 ¶The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6 ¶Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.
15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
19 ¶And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

The city of Babylon referred to in Isaiah 13 (verses 1,19) isn't the ancient city of Babylon (as is often claimed by preterism), just as it isn't the symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" of Revelation. Instead, it is only the present-day, literal city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

In Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus as he wages war against the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, 2nd-coming day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Isaiah 13:10 refers to the same, future, 2nd-coming time as Matthew 24:29-31.

Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus' defeat of the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' 2nd coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East which in ancient times was called "Media" and is now in northwestern Iran.

In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" aren't the ancient Medes who conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes didn't make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 won't be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming.

keras said in post 242:

Isaiah 24:1-13

This also refers to the 2nd coming.

That is, to properly understand the timing of Isaiah 24:1-13, it must be read in its full context:

Isaiah 24:1 ¶Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
7 The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.
8 The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.
9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
10 The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
11 There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.
12 In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.
13 ¶When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.
14 They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea.
15 Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea.
16 ¶From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Note that the events of "that day" in Isaiah 24:21-22 match the 2nd coming events of Revelation 19:19 to 20:3. And the events of Isaiah 24:23 match the post-tribulation, 2nd coming events of Matthew 24:29-30 and the subsequent millennial reign of Jesus on the earth in Revelation 20:4-6 and Micah 4:1-4.
 
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keras

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Handmaid, I hope you can see that the issue Bible2 and I are discussing is relevant to your OP.
Bible2's stance is that all that is prophesied about the Lord's Day of wrath happens at Jesus' Return. Including the destruction of Damascus and the removal [death] of all humans and animals in the holy Land at that time.

Keras says: There will be a literal Day, of fire from the sun, that will cause all the disastrous effects as described in the many prophesies of the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. This Day will be at least 7 years, more likely 14 years BEFORE the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.
Bible2+ has to place all the scriptures about those Days, into the one event.
One particular event is the Sixth Seal. I think Bible2 does say there will be those cosmic and earthly disasters then, but he refutes that it is the Lord's Day of wrath. He contends that every person alive at that time will be mistaken in saying: Hide us from Almighty God and the Lamb, for their great Day of wrath has come! I, for one, will speak the truth: It IS that awful Day!
He quotes Isaiah 24 above. This chapter vividly describes the Sixth Seal disasters and in verse 23: THEN, [after all of that] the moon and sun will be darkened and Jesus will take up His Millennial reign. [exactly as Matthew 24:29-30 says]
It is simply impossible for Isaiah 24:1-22 to happen at the Return; will there be no rejoicing, no singing? The cities in desolation, the holy Land deserted?
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 does not say Jesus Returns then. He is revealed to His own, as they gather and go to live in the holy Land, as many prophesies say. Jeremiah 30:21, Revelation 14:1
Note that nothing requires that.
Many prophesies say the Lord will not be seen during His Day of wrath. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 89:46
Note that Isaiah 29:1-8 doesn't refer to hiding in underground bunkers:
Isaiah 29:1-8 describes woe to Jerusalem and the destruction of those nations warring against her. A parallel of Psalms 83. The survivor's in Jerusalem will squeak out of the ground. We know there are underground tunnels, etc there from ancient times and modern Israel has built many more shelters. What else can Isaiah 29:4 mean? And again, this prophecy cannot be at the Return; the enemies are killed by the Sword of His Word then.
It can refer to what will happen right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming:
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
But Isaiah 29:1-8 doesn't relate to Zech 14:1-2, because that prophecy is about the conquest of the Lord's holy people, then living in all of the holy Land. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-7 That conquest will happen 1260 days, 42 months, 3.5 years before the Return. Isaiah 29:1-8 must happen before that, at least 7+ years before the Return.
This refers to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. In its context, Zephaniah 1:14-18 was prophesying the destruction of the land of ancient Judah and neighboring countries (Zephaniah 1:4 to 2:5) by the Babylonians in the 6th century BC.
Zephaniah 1:14-18 has not been fulfilled. Never yet has the Lord done what is described there.
I see you acknowledge there have been 'Days of the Lord' in the past and then, He did use other nations to punish Israel. His forthcoming Day of wrath is one where He will use His storehouse, the sun to literally fulfil all the graphic prophesies about that Day. Deuteronomy 32:22, 34-35, 43
The Return of Jesus will be another Day, described quite differently as the Great Day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:14
This refers to the 2nd coming.
Impossible! Isaiah 13:1:22 is another prophecy with a partial fulfilment, but still awaits completion. But Jesus does not Return in cruel wrath and fierce anger, to reduce the earth to desolation, killing millions on the Day of His fierce anger.

There is a coherent and logical progression of the end time events. There must come some kind of dramatic event to force the secular world to form a OWG and all as so clearly prophesied, that Government will soon be taken over by a dictator. But the Lord's true believers will not be a part of the OWG, that is why the Anti-Christ will make a 7 year treaty with them.
It will be the Lord's Day of wrath, that will come 'like a thief', unexpectedly to you and all who fail to understand God's Plans for these last days.
 
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Handmaid for Jesus

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There is a coherent and logical progression of the end time events. There must come some kind of dramatic event to force the secular world to form a OWG and all as so clearly prophesied, that Government will soon be taken over by a dictator.

Yep. IMHO, It will be the rapture. Governments will believe the people have been mass abducted by aliens and they will band together to fight this interstellar threat which will be the Lord Jesus at His second coming.
 
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Yep. IMHO, It will be the rapture. Governments will believe the people have been mass abducted by aliens and they will band together to fight this interstellar threat which will be the Lord Jesus at His second coming.
I have plenty of scriptures to refute this notion.
God's purpose since Abraham was to have a people who would be His witnesses and a light to the other nations. They would live in the Land God gave to Abraham and God promised to bless and protect them. God has never said He would take His people to heaven. Jesus said: John 3:13, John 17:15 and John 8:21
Psalms 37:29 The righteous will posses the Land and will live there forever.
 
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keras said in post 244:

Bible2's stance is that all that is prophesied about the Lord's Day of wrath happens at Jesus' Return. Including the destruction of Damascus . . .

Actually, what has been said is that Damascus could be nuked before the Lord's day of wrath, by Israel during a future all-out war (Isaiah 17:1). Yet this war will also break the power of Israel (Isaiah 17:4).

And one way this war could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to bring about the total defeat of the Islamic State militant group (also known as ISIS, or ISIL, or Daesh) in Iraq, and eventually so that the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (i.e. that which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein), to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein's rule), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to defeat Islamic State, and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform. For they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

Indeed, the current military brains of the Islamic State are former Iraqi Baathist generals who can't stand that the Iraqi government has come completely under the thumb of Iran. They see (Sunni Arab) Islamic State as the only current viable bulwark against the Iranians and the Shiite Arabs taking control of all of Iraq and Syria. These generals could "defect" from serving Islamic State to serving a non-sectarian Iraqi Army drawn mainly (not exclusively) from Sunni Arab and Kurdish militias in western and northern Iraq, which with secret Western assistance could completely overthrow the current Iraqi government in Baghdad, which is very weak and corrupt.

Once the Iraqi Baathists take back control of Iraq, in order to help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of a subsequent, all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, "false flag" operations could be managed by the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false "Messiah": cf. Matthew 24:24) could completely destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, in order to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a 51st state of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

keras said in post 244:

One particular event is the Sixth Seal. I think Bible2 does say there will be those cosmic and earthly disasters then, but he refutes that it is the Lord's Day of wrath.

Note that the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the 1st stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath, none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

keras said in post 244:

He contends that every person alive at that time will be mistaken in saying: Hide us from Almighty God and the Lamb, for their great Day of wrath has come!

Actually, no such claim has been made, for nothing requires it. Instead, what has been said is that in Revelation 6:15, the original Greek word (pas: G3956) translated as "every" doesn't have to mean absolutely everyone, but can mean "all manner of" (cf. Acts 10:12). I.e.. all manner of people (whether unbelievers or believers) could mistakenly think that the 6th seal is the wrath of YHWH God, just as, at some subsequent point, "all" (manner of) people will mistakenly worship the Antichrist (Revelation 13:8).

keras said in post 244:

It is simply impossible for Isaiah 24:1-22 to happen at the Return; will there be no rejoicing, no singing?

No, there will be (Isaiah 24:14), but not for those subject to God's wrath in Isaiah 24, Revelation 19:11 to 20:3.

keras said in post 244:

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 does not say Jesus Returns then.

Actually, it does:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

keras said in post 244:

He is revealed to His own . . .

Note that nothing in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 says that he will be revealed only to his own at that time.

keras said in post 244:

Jeremiah 30:21

Jeremiah 30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.

"Their governor" could refer to "Nehemiah the governor" (Nehemiah 12:26) during the return of the Jews from their Babylonian Captivity (Jeremiah 30:18). It could also refer to Jesus during the millennium (Zechariah 14:9-11), after the captivity which will occur right before his 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-4).

keras said in post 244:

Revelation 14:1

Revelation 14:1 refers to Jesus (figuratively "a" Lamb: Revelation 5:6 to 6:1; 1 Peter 1:19, Acts 8:32, Isaiah 53:7) and to the 144,000 part of the church standing on the heavenly Mount Zion (cf. Hebrews 12:22), before the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus). While Jesus and the 144,000 will be up there physically by the mid-tribulation time of Revelation 14, when others in the church will be on the earth and will start dying under the Antichrist (Revelation 14:12-13), everyone in the church is up there already figuratively. For Hebrews 12:22 and Ephesians 2:6 can refer figuratively to salvation under the New Covenant (Galatians 4:24-26, Hebrews 12:22,24).

keras said in post 244:

Psalms 11:4-6
Psalms 11:6 can refer to Revelation 20:9b, which is the same event as Ezekiel 38:22.

keras said in post 244:

Habakkuk 3:4

Habakkuk 3:4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.

This could refer to the brightness of Jesus' 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8b). In Habakkuk 3:4, the original Hebrew word (chebyown: H2253) translated as "hiding" can indeed refer to a concealment (Strong's Hebrew Dictionary). But it can simply mean that some of Jesus' power at his 2nd coming will be contained within horns protruding from his hand.

keras said in post 244:

Psalms 89:46

This, in its context, refers to God, as it were, "hiding" while the Davidic kingdom is brought under defeat by foreign enemies (Psalms 89:39-45,49-51).

keras said in post 244:

Psalms 83

If Psalms 83 wasn't referring to a threat against Israel in the time of Asaph (the author of Psalms 83), but to some future event, it may not happen until the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39), which won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10).

keras said in post 244:

Isaiah 29:4

Isaiah 29:4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

This can simply mean that the Jews will be brought low by foreign enemies, so that they will only speak in whispers in their presence. Compare the English phrase "he spoke in a very low whisper".

keras said in post 244:

And again, this prophecy cannot be at the Return; the enemies are killed by the Sword of His Word then.

Note that nothing requires "only" by his sword.

keras said in post 244:

But Isaiah 29:1-8 doesn't relate to Zech 14:1-2, because that prophecy is about the conquest of the Lord's holy people, then living in all of the holy Land.

Actually, both prophecies can refer simply to Jerusalem, right before the 2nd coming.

keras said in post 244:

Daniel 7:25

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel 7:25,21 like Daniel 12:7b, refers to the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast (Revelation 13:4-18), which reign will occur during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

keras said in post 244:

Isaiah 29:1-8 must happen before that, at least 7+ years before the Return.

Note that nothing requires that.

keras said in post 244:

Zephaniah 1:14-18 has not been fulfilled.

Note that nothing requires that.

keras said in post 244:

Deuteronomy 32:22 . . .

Deuteronomy 32:22 could refer to the same event as 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 20:11b, which event will occur at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11), and will be followed by the creation of a new heaven and earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1).

keras said in post 244:

Deuteronomy 32:22, 34-35, 43

Deuteronomy 32:34-35 could refer to right before the 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-4).

keras said in post 244:

Deuteronomy 32:22, 34-35, 43

Deuteronomy 32:43 can refer to Jesus' 2nd coming. For compare Deuteronomy 32:41-42 with Revelation 19:15,21. And compare Deuteronomy 32:43 with Zechariah 14:2-21.

keras said in post 244:

Revelation 16:14

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The "battle of that great day of God Almighty" refers to the 2nd-coming battle (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).

keras said in post 244:

Jesus does not Return in cruel wrath and fierce anger, to reduce the earth to desolation, killing millions on the Day of His fierce anger.

Actually, he does (Revelation 19:11-21; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

keras said in post 244:

There must come some kind of dramatic event to force the secular world to form a OWG and all as so clearly prophesied . . .

Indeed, and that event (rather, series of events) will be the 1st half of the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 10).

keras said in post 244:

But the Lord's true believers will not be a part of the OWG, that is why the Anti-Christ will make a 7 year treaty with them.

Actually, the 7-year treaty won't be made with the Lord's true believers.

In Daniel 9:26, the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are militarily defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false "Messiah" being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false "Messiah" and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

keras said in post 244:

It will be the Lord's Day of wrath, that will come 'like a thief' . . .

That's right, the 2nd coming (Revelation 16:15, Revelation 19:15).
 
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I have plenty of scriptures to refute this notion.
God's purpose since Abraham was to have a people who would be His witnesses and a light to the other nations. They would live in the Land God gave to Abraham and God promised to bless and protect them. God has never said He would take His people to heaven. Jesus said: John 3:13, John 17:15 and John 8:21
Psalms 37:29 The righteous will posses the Land and will live there forever.

I know brother. :). I have seen the way you interpret the scriptures, which is different from the way I as a pre-trib believer interpret. But we will see, hopefully soon, whose interpretation is right. I love you too much to argue with you about it. And I do appreciate your scholarship. I just don't agree with all of it.
 
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That's right, the 2nd coming (Revelation 16:15, Revelation 19:15).
Without bothering with all the rest of your 'could be' and 'nothing requires', your belief that the Day of wrath happens at the Return of Jesus is the crux of our dispute.
You say the Second Coming , the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign, is the event where He comes as a thief. Unexpectedly, without warning.
This premise is wrong because we are given the time period between the desecration of the Temple by the Anti-Christ and the Return in many [seven] different ways: Revelation 12:14...3 1/2 years, Revelation 11:2 and Revelation 13:5...42 months... Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6...1260 days... Daniel 7:25...a time, times and half a time....Daniel 9:27...one half [of 7 years]....
So, provided we are still alive and in the holy Land, as I believe we will be, it will be a simple matter to count 1260 days from the day the Anti-Christ enthrones himself in the Temple, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:31, and we will be ready and waiting to welcome Jesus with the shout: Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord! Matthew 23:39

You correctly say the Sixth Seal will happen some years before the GT and the Return.
Read again Revelation 6:12-14. Just what is described there, will be a world-changer, let alone the many other prophesies that graphically fill in the details of what will happen. It is going to be the sudden and shocking event that will set the scene for all that must happen before the Return.
 
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I know brother. :). I have seen the way you interpret the scriptures, which is different from the way I as a pre-trib believer interpret. But we will see, hopefully soon, whose interpretation is right. I love you too much to argue with you about it. And I do appreciate your scholarship. I just don't agree with all of it.
How I read scriptures, is how it is written. I use a modern translation and any important or unclear verses, I check in the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer. Most often, other scriptures will shed light to assist understanding.
The word 'interpretation' is used by those whose beliefs are challenged by the plain truth. It is them who 'interpret' scripture to fit what they think God should do.
However, I am still learning and I admit to making mistakes such as foolishly predicting events. But it is plain from the world situation today and from the Bible, that we will see it all.
So, may the Lord protect you and keep you safe and I pray that we will meet in the holy Land. Zechariah 3:10
 
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So, may the Lord protect you and keep you safe and I pray that we will meet in the holy Land. Zechariah 3:10
I am looking forward to that dear brother. :hug: We will laugh, and drink wine under each others' fig trees. :)
 
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keras said in post 249:

You say the Second Coming , the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign, is the event where He comes as a thief.

That's right, just as Revelation 16:15 shows.

In Revelation 16:15, Jesus is encouraging and warning those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12), near the end of the future tribulation. They will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Jesus will be encouraging them to hang on just a little longer until his 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, right after the destruction of Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" at the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:3).

Revelation 16:15 could be the same blessing as Daniel 12:11-12.

Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up; and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1); and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days; then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It is on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

keras said in post 249:

You say the Second Coming , the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign, is the event where He comes as a thief.

That's right, just as Matthew 24:42-44 shows.

For in the Bible, when we are told to "watch" for Jesus' 2nd coming, the original Greek word (gregoreuo: G1127) translated as "watch" doesn't mean to stare with our eyes hoping to see someone appear at any moment. Instead, it means "to keep awake" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Matthew 26:40, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, and Mark 13:36-37.

We are to keep spiritually awake as we wait for Jesus to return. For if we fall spiritually asleep, that is, fall into backsliding, there is no assurance that we will recover our right relationship with Jesus before he returns (Matthew 24:48-51), just as if we fall physically asleep waiting for something to happen, there is no assurance that we will wake back up in time to see it happen.

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' return won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

keras said in post 249:

You say the Second Coming , the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign, is the event where He comes as a thief. Unexpectedly, without warning.

Regarding "Unexpectedly, without warning", would you apply that to Matthew 24:39a?

If so, note that Matthew 24:37-41 refers to "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-30).

Matthew 24:37-41 means that the unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it actually happens. For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (of Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9); and the power that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36); and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected 1st battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

keras said in post 249:

Read again Revelation 6:12-14. Just what is described there, will be a world-changer . . .

The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

*******

keras said in post 250:

But it is plain from the world situation today and from the Bible, that we will see it all.

That could be right.

For Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34; cf. Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's 1st year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b; 1 Peter 2:9, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
 
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That's right, just as Revelation 16:15 shows.
I see that most Bibles place that verse in parenthesis. It is there, in the context of Armageddon, but how can it apply to the Battle of Armageddon? They have gathered to fight against Jesus, as they know [via the demonic spirits: v14] Jesus is coming, just as the Christian survivor's will as well.

No, it will be the sudden and unexpected Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, that will come as a thief. Just as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3. Don't tell me things will be 'peaceful and secure' in Armageddon, at the Return!
Does Isaiah 27:9-11, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Romans 1:18, for examples, happen at the Return?
You even agree that the Sixth Seal will be a sudden disaster, why think the Return will be as well? Those Christians will know Jesus is coming and so will the Anti-Christ and his armies.
 
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keras said in post 253:

They have gathered to fight against Jesus, as they know [via the demonic spirits: v14] Jesus is coming . . .

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Note that nothing in this verse, or its context, says or requires that the unsaved world will know via the demonic spirits that Jesus is coming, or that Jesus is even their enemy. For during the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that he is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the 1st book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). But Satan might not be worshipped as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. And he could claim that even 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together prove this by showing that it was the single entity of YHWH/Satan who moved David to number Israel. Of course, the truth is that 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply show that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same person.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the world. The world will have been expecting to wage war against some evil Old Testament god named "YHWH" with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet) and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer) and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist) and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9). But then instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH suffering and dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus, sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).

When the people of the world realize at that moment how thoroughly they have been duped, and see in the sky the huge angelic armies (2 Thessalonians 1:7, Matthew 25:31) of the true Jesus, the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, they could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15-21).

keras said in post 253:

They have gathered to fight against Jesus, as they know [via the demonic spirits: v14] Jesus is coming, just as the Christian survivor's will as well.

Regarding Christian survivors knowing that Jesus is coming, that's right. For even Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and partial preterist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the 1st verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the 2nd verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

--

Coming to know at a certain point in our future the date of Jesus' 2nd coming will help believers to endure patiently during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers. As an analogy, imagine that during a persecution of believers, you are thrown naked into a walk-in freezer. The door is locked and the lights are turned off, and you are just left in there to slowly suffer the freezing cold. You could freak out at this, if you have no idea how long you are going to have to be in there. But what if right after they turn the lights off, you see a little light in the corner, and you walk over and see a note on the wall: "You will be let out and set free in 13.35 minutes" (cf. the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12). This would greatly help you to remain calm and hang in there patiently for the whole time, even though you might suffer terribly from the cold. In the same way, knowing exactly when Jesus' 2nd coming will occur (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15) will help believers, during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers, to endure patiently to the end (Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10b).

keras said in post 253:

No, it will be the sudden and unexpected Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, that will come as a thief.

Note that this can be his 2nd coming (Revelation 16:15, Revelation 19:15).

keras said in post 253:

Just as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

keras said in post 253:

Isaiah 27:9-11

This could refer to a military defeat of Israel by its enemies shortly before the 2nd coming. For the subsequent verses of Isaiah 27:12-13 could occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For compare "the great trumpet shall be blown" in Isaiah 27:13 with the 2nd coming's "great sound of a trumpet" in Matthew 24:31. Isaiah 27:13b would then refer to the millennium (cf. Micah 4:1-4).

keras said in post 253:

Zephaniah 1:14-18

Zephaniah 1:14-18 refers to an ancient day of the Lord, like, for example, the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. In its context, Zephaniah 1:14-18 was prophesying the destruction of the land of ancient Judah and neighboring countries (Zephaniah 1:4 to 2:5) by the Babylonians in the 6th century BC.

keras said in post 253:

Romans 1:18

Note that Romans 1:18 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that Jesus won't be seen at any of its fulfillments, such as at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-21; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). I.e., with regard to the 2nd coming, Romans 1:18's "heaven", like Revelation 19:11's and 2 Thessalonians 1:7's "heaven", can simply be the 1st heaven, the sky/atmosphere.

keras said in post 253:

You even agree that the Sixth Seal will be a sudden disaster . . .

Actually, the volcanic eruption of the 6th seal could be preceded by many warning signs. For example, in a few years the Yellowstone Caldera could begin to "bulge" upward quite menacingly, so that volcanologists could warn the world that a huge, devastating explosion may be about to occur.

keras said in post 253:

You even agree that the Sixth Seal will be a sudden disaster, why think the Return will be as well?

Regarding Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), note that nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

keras said in post 253:

Those Christians will know Jesus is coming and so will the Anti-Christ and his armies.

The Antichrist, like Satan, himself might know (cf. Revelation 12:12c), but note that nothing requires that their utterly-deceived worshippers (of Revelation 13:4-18) will know anything.
 
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keras

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Rather than playing verbal tennis with you, Bible2+, as your serves are all way out of the court and your 'cut and paste' replies just repeat the same old wrong beliefs, I will focus on what happens at the Return of Jesus.
We have 3 definitive scriptures describing this glorious event:
Matthew 24:29-31 This passage clearly states that Jesus will come AFTER the Tribulation has passed. Including the Sixth Seal.
Not unexpectedly to anyone with Bible knowledge and Satan and his minions know when Jesus will Return.

Revelation 19:11-21 Here it is stated that Jesus comes with His garments already splashed in blood. It is indisputable: He comes from heaven in blood splashed clothes. How did He get that way in heaven?
Isaiah 63:1-6 tells us how. It is on the Day He treads the winepress of the nations, Revelation 14:17-20. Revelation 16:19-21, Revelation 18:3, Jeremiah 25:29-33, all refer to the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath, that will strike in a single Day: Revelation 18:8, Isaiah 10:17-19, Psalms 50:1-4 Unexpectedly, like a thief.
It will happen several years before the Return, at the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire from the sun, Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, that will cause all the prophesied effects of that terrible Day to literally happen.

Zechariah 14:3-5 says how Jesus will come and destroy the army that has taken Jerusalem, the army of the Anti-Christ as we see in Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 9:26b, Daniel 11:29-31, Revelation 13:7 That army is joined by other armies from around the world, Revelation 16:14 and they assemble at Armageddon. Revelation 16:16
We are clearly told that Jerusalem will be under the control of the Anti-Christ leader of the One World Govt, for 3 1/2 years. When that time is over, Jesus will appear on the Mount of Olives and will kill them all by the sharp Sword of His Word and chain up Satan. No mention of a worldwide judgement at that time.
It is said in Revelation 19:15b, that it is Jesus who will then rule the nations with a Rod of iron and it is Jesus who trod the winepress of the wrath of God. What will happen and what has happened before then.
 
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keras said in post 255:

I will focus on what happens at the Return of Jesus. We have 3 definitive scriptures describing this glorious event:

Actually, we have many more than 3.

For just 3 more examples: 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

keras said in post 255:

Matthew 24:29-31 This passage clearly states that Jesus will come AFTER the Tribulation has passed. Including the Sixth Seal.

That's right. But note that most people right before that future time (just as today) won't be Christians, and so they won't know the Bible's prophecies. Also, even most Christians today don't know them. Also, the Bible's prophecies can simply be rejected outright, like atheists do today: They can know everything that the Bible says, and still reject it as a load of garbage which will never happen. Similarly, Satan could tell his minions that Matthew 24:29-31 is just a bunch of false propaganda from the evil god YHWH, and that it will never come to pass.

keras said in post 255:

Not unexpectedly to anyone with Bible knowledge and Satan and his minions know when Jesus will Return.

Note that Jesus' 2nd coming will happen unexpectedly to unsaved people (Matthew 24:39). For during the tribulation, they could come to believe that his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

For example, the False Prophet appearing figuratively "like a lamb" (Revelation 13:11) could mean that he will say that he is Jesus. For both before and after Revelation 13:11, "a lamb" in Revelation refers to Jesus (Revelation 5:6, Revelation 14:1). And the False Prophet doesn't have to duplicate the Bible's description of Jesus' 2nd coming literally, but can explain it away as being only symbolic, just as full preterism already explains the 2nd coming away today as something which happened back in 70 AD. Or the False Prophet could claim that the Bible's description of the 2nd coming is not the true Word of God, but only from (in his words) "a Bible which was corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed its early manuscripts".

The False Prophet could say that he is Jesus returned via reincarnation. The world could accept this because a lot of the world believes in reincarnation, even though the Bible refutes reincarnation. For it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27).

keras said in post 255:

Revelation 19:11-21 Here it is stated that Jesus comes with His garments already splashed in blood. It is indisputable: He comes from heaven in blood splashed clothes. How did He get that way in heaven?
Isaiah 63:1-6 tells us how.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Isaiah 63:3 won't occur until Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:15-21. So Revelation 19:13a could refer to his own blood, like how believers' robes are dipped in his blood (Revelation 7:14). Also, Isaiah 63:3 refers not to a dipping in blood, but only to a sprinkling with blood. Also, in Revelation 19:13a the original Greek word (bapto: G0911) translated as "dipped" means the same as baptism, and Jesus referred to his own bloody death as a baptism (Luke 12:50, Mark 10:38-39), just as believers are baptized into his death (Romans 6:3).

Isaiah 63:3a means that Jesus will be the only one to fight the 2nd-coming battle (Revelation 19:15,21), to tread the winepress of God's wrath (Isaiah 63:3a, Revelation 19:15b).

Similarly, Daniel 12:7b means that at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

keras said in post 255:

Revelation 14:17-20

Note that right before this, Revelation 14:14-16 shows Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

That is, Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians in our future being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do those things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do those things, even if they are then killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning that obedient believers can have the Holy Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.

Revelation 14:19-20 can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who won't worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians. Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, with one blow of a large axe, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle. Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the 1,600 furlongs is about 200 miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean that the Antichrist's beheading of people who won't worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this won't be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17). For Christians are not appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

keras said in post 255:

Revelation 16:19-21

This refers to the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17-21).

Only after the destruction of Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" at the 7th vial, the final event of the tribulation (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2), will Jesus return and rapture (gather together) and marry the church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. That is, the Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the nations at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

keras said in post 255:

Revelation 18:3

. . .

Revelation 18:8

These verses refer to Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18), which represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

keras said in post 255:

Jeremiah 25:29-33

Jeremiah 25:30-33 could refer to Jesus' 2nd coming. For compare the shout and treading of Jeremiah 25:30b with the 2nd-coming shout and treading of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Revelation 19:15b. And compare the giving of the wicked to the sword in Jeremiah 25:31b with the 2nd-coming giving of the wicked to the sword in Revelation 19:21.

keras said in post 255:

Isaiah 10:17-19

This could have been fulfilled during Sennacherib's invasion in Isaiah chapters 36-37.

Isaiah 10:19 referred to how many soldiers of ancient Assyria were left alive after 2 Kings 19:35. For the context of Isaiah 10:19 is God's judgment against Sennacherib, a king of ancient Assyria, for threatening Jerusalem in the time of Hezekiah (Isaiah 10:5-19; 2 Kings 19:20-37). Similarly, Isaiah 10:20 refers to a remnant of Israelites living in Jerusalem who survived Sennacherib's invasion of Judah (2 Kings 19:30-37).

keras said in post 255:

Psalms 50:1-4

Psalms 50:3 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), just as Psalms 50:4-5 refers to what will happen at his 2nd coming (Mark 13:27).

keras said in post 255:

Unexpectedly, like a thief.

Note that this can refer to Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 16:15, Matthew 24:42-44).

keras said in post 255:

It will happen several years before the Return, at the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire from the sun . . .

Note that nothing says or requires that the 6th seal will be a disaster which will originate from the sun, instead of a huge volcano.

keras said in post 255:

Isaiah 30:26

This (like Isaiah 62:4) is about the future, blessed time of the millennium (Isaiah 30:18-26). The bright sun in Isaiah 30:26 is a good thing, just as the bright moon and the healing in Isaiah 30:26 are good things.

Then Isaiah 30:27 starts a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in some copies of the KJV. And Isaiah 30:27 also takes a step back chronologically from Isaiah 30:26, like how, for example, Matthew 14:3 takes a step back chronologically from Matthew 14:2. For Isaiah 30:27-33 is about Jesus' 2nd coming (right before the millennium), when he will come in flaming fire (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

keras said in post 255:

Malachi 4:1

Malachi 4:1-3 can refer to the burning up of the physical bodies of some of the wicked people who will still be alive at Jesus' 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8).

keras said in post 255:

Daniel 9:26b

In the 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by Roman soldiers, who were "the people" in Daniel 9:26, their "prince" being Titus. In the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, Jerusalem will be destroyed by all nations of the earth, which will all be under the Antichrist's rule by that time (Revelation 13:7b), when they gather against Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21).

And just as "the city" in Daniel 9:26 is Jerusalem, so "the sanctuary" is the Jewish temple building in Jerusalem. In the 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, the 2nd Jewish temple was destroyed in 70 AD by Roman soldiers. In the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26b, a future, 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4) will be destroyed along with the rest of Jerusalem (Matthew 24:2, Luke 19:44), when Jerusalem is pillaged by all nations of the earth right before Jesus' 2nd coming to save and restore Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:2-21).

keras said in post 255:

Daniel 11:29-31

The ships of Chittim in Daniel 11:30 could refer antitypically to ships of the huge U.S. Navy, which by that time in the future could have established, under an agreement with the U.K., a major U.S. naval base on Cyprus.

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the 1st (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the 1st part of it antitypically, and the rest for the 1st and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

keras said in post 255:

Revelation 13:7

Revelation 13:7-10 shows that the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), will be allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

keras said in post 255:

No mention of a worldwide judgement at that time.

The 2nd coming will be a worldwide judgment (Revelation 19:11-21; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

But Revelation 19:11-21 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 refer only to a temporal judgment which will occur when Jesus slays only some of the unsaved people who will still be alive at his 2nd coming, just as when God slew people in Noah's flood, that was only a temporal judgment of only the people who were alive at the time of the flood (Luke 17:26-37). The eternal judgment of the unsaved (of all times) won't occur until they are all physically resurrected together at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which won't occur until some 1,000 years after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).
 
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Actually, we have many more than 3.
For just 3 more examples: 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
Yes, excepting for 2 Thess 1:7-10, they do refer to the Return of Jesus.
2 Thessalonians 1:6 It is just that God should balance the account by sending affliction to your enemies.....
This cannot just be referring to the armies attacking Jerusalem. Then it says the Lord Jesus will be revealed to His own on that Day. NOT to the world, as yet. Confirmed by Revelation 14:1, where He is seen by His people gathered in the holy Land, soon after the Lord's Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-16

Revelation 16:16 The spirits assemble the armies at Armageddon.
[This is a wide valley, just northeast of Mt Carmel, actually quite a distance from Jerusalem – at least 2 days march, I would think.]
Is this event, at to the Return of Jesus, the same as the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath?

Purpose To destroy the armies attacking Jerusalem, not a judgement against the nations.

Location - This attack is just in Israel, not worldwide, as is the Day of vengeance and wrath.

The players- The Anti Christ, beast and false prophet are not mentioned at the Day of vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal and the many other prophesies of that event.

The method - Destruction by Christ’s sharp sword of His Word, not the same as the vivid descriptions of a fire judgement, prophesied more than 70 times in the Bible and referred to in Hebrews 10:27, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, 2 Peter 3:7.

It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord will act, first to judge all the nations, then Armageddon.
Just as there were Days the Lord acted in the past and will do again after the Millennium, on the Day the Books will be opened. Daniel 7:9-10
The Sixth Seal, “ the Day of the Lord’s wrath ” is the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide judgement/punishment by fire from the sun, which will clear and cleanse His Land. Most clearly described in Isaiah 63:1-6 and Habakkuk 3:12 ‘Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.’ On that Day, the Lord won't be seen: Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4 But later, when His people are gathered into all of the holy Land, Jesus will be revealed to His own. Revelation 7:9-10

Then, several years later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, the ‘great Day of God Almighty,’ when He disposes of the armies of the Anti Christ. Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5
 
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keras said in post 257:

Yes, excepting for 2 Thess 1:7-10, they do refer to the Return of Jesus.

Note that 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 also refers to Jesus' 2nd coming:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

keras said in post 257:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 It is just that God should balance the account by sending affliction to your enemies.....

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

keras said in post 257:

This cannot just be referring to the armies attacking Jerusalem.

That's right, for the 2nd-coming vengeance will involve people worldwide "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

keras said in post 257:

Then it says the Lord Jesus will be revealed to His own on that Day. NOT to the world, as yet.

Note that nothing in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 says that Jesus will be revealed at that time only to his own, and not to the world.

keras said in post 257:

Confirmed by Revelation 14:1, where He is seen by His people gathered in the holy Land . . .

Revelation 14:1 refers to Jesus (figuratively "a" Lamb: Revelation 5:6 to 6:1; 1 Peter 1:19, Acts 8:32, Isaiah 53:7) and to the 144,000 part of the church standing on the heavenly Mount Zion (cf. Hebrews 12:22), before the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus). While Jesus and the 144,000 will be up there physically by the mid-tribulation time of Revelation 14, when others in the church will be on the earth and will start dying under the Antichrist (Revelation 14:12-13), everyone in the church is up there already figuratively. For Hebrews 12:22 and Ephesians 2:6 can refer figuratively to salvation under the New Covenant (Galatians 4:24-26, Hebrews 12:22,24).

keras said in post 257:

Confirmed by Revelation 14:1, where He is seen by His people gathered in the holy Land, soon after the Lord's Day of wrath.

Regarding "soon after the Lord's Day of wrath", note that it won't have started yet. For the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

keras said in post 257:

Ezekiel 34:11-16

This can refer to after Jesus' 2nd coming, at the start of the millennium, when he will gather to Israel all the surviving, elect genetic Israelites from around the world who didn't get saved before the 2nd coming (cf. also Ezekiel 20:34-38).

keras said in post 257:

Revelation 16:16 The spirits assemble the armies at Armageddon.
[This is a wide valley, just northeast of Mt Carmel, actually quite a distance from Jerusalem – at least 2 days march, I would think.]

That's right.

At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH God (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (i.e. the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they have gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that is why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

At the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).

keras said in post 257:

Is this event, at to the Return of Jesus, the same as the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath?

The Lord's day of vengeance and wrath will be at his 2nd coming:

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

keras said in post 257:

Purpose - To destroy the armies attacking Jerusalem, not a judgement against the nations.

Actually, it is both. Regarding the former:

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

keras said in post 257:

Location - This attack is just in Israel, not worldwide, as is the Day of vengeance and wrath.

Actually, the 2nd-coming wrath will be worldwide (2 Thessalonians 1:8, Revelation 19:15).
keras said in post 257:

The players - The Anti Christ, beast and false prophet are not mentioned at the Day of vengeance and wrath . . .

Actually, they are (Revelation 19:20,15).

keras said in post 257:

The method - Destruction by Christ’s sharp sword of His Word, not the same as the vivid descriptions of a fire judgement . . .

Note that nothing requires only the sword, for there will also be, for example, fire and plague at the 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 1:8, Zechariah 14:12).

keras said in post 257:

Hebrews 10:27

This applies to unrepentant sinners of all times (Hebrews 10:26), and so refers to the great white throne judgment and the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).

keras said in post 257:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8

This refers to the 2nd coming.

keras said in post 257:

2 Peter 3:7

This refers to the destruction of the heavens and earth at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11 to 21:1), which is when the unsaved of all times will undergo final judgment.

keras said in post 257:

It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord will act, first to judge all the nations, then Armageddon.

Note that nothing requires this, for Jesus will judge all the nations at his 2nd coming (e.g. Revelation 19:11-21, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

keras said in post 257:

Just as there were Days the Lord acted in the past and will do again after the Millennium, on the Day the Books will be opened. Daniel 7:9-10

The books which will be opened in Daniel 7:10b could be records of all the actions of some people, by which they will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10), just as the books which will be opened some thousand years afterward in Revelation 20:12a will contain all the actions of other people, by which they will be judged (Revelation 20:12b).

That is, Daniel 7:10b could refer to the judgment of only the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Matthew 25:19-30, Luke 12:45-48), which judgment will occur, along with the marriage of the church (Revelation 19:7), shortly before Jesus defeats the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast, by casting him into the lake of fire (Daniel 7:11b, Revelation 19:20).

So Daniel 7:11a could refer to the Antichrist, the voice of the horn, shortly before his destruction in Daniel 7:11b and Revelation 19:20, speaking great blasphemies against YHWH God (cf. Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) to try to build up the morale of the world's armies, which will have gathered together in an attempt to fight YHWH (Revelation 19:19, Revelation 16:14).

keras said in post 257:

Just as there were Days the Lord acted in the past and will do again after the Millennium . . .

The singular day of the Lord which will stretch from the 2nd coming, through the millennium, and up to the great white throne judgment, will be one long period of time of judgment from God. It will begin with the judgment of the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-21), extend through the judgment of the millennium (e.g. Zechariah 14:19, Revelation 2:26-29), then include the judgment on Gog, Magog, and Satan after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), and then end with the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

keras said in post 257:

The Sixth Seal, “ the Day of the Lord’s wrath ” . . .

Note that the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the 1st stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

keras said in post 257:

The Sixth Seal, “ the Day of the Lord’s wrath ” is the next prophesied event that we can expect . . .

Actually, the 6th seal isn't next, for before the 6th seal the last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

keras said in post 257:

The Sixth Seal, “ the Day of the Lord’s wrath ” is the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide judgement/punishment by fire from the sun . . .

Note that nothing requires that the 6th seal will involve fire from the sun.

keras said in post 257:

Isaiah 63:1-6

This refers to Jesus' 2nd coming.

keras said in post 257:

Habakkuk 3:12

This brings to mind Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:3).

keras said in post 257:

Psalms 18:11

Note that Psalms 18 can simply be poetic language to express God's deliverance of David from his enemies at some point in ancient times (Psalms 18 title). And even if one were to also apply parts of it to the future, Psalms 18:11 could refer to the clouds of the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29, Revelation 1:7a), right before Jesus appears to the world (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7b) and the rapture of Psalms 18:16 occurs (Matthew 24:31).

keras said in post 257:

Habakkuk 3:4

This could refer to the brightness of Jesus' 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8b). In Habakkuk 3:4, the original Hebrew word (chebyown: H2253) translated as "hiding" can indeed refer to a concealment (Strong's Hebrew Dictionary). But it can simply mean that some of Jesus' power at his 2nd coming will be contained within horns protruding from his hand.

keras said in post 257:

Revelation 7:9-10

Note that in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude could be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

keras said in post 257:

Then, several years later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, the ‘great Day of God Almighty,’ when He disposes of the armies of the Anti Christ. Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5

That's right.
 
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This can refer to after Jesus' 2nd coming, at the start of the millennium, when he will gather to Israel all the surviving, elect genetic Israelites from around the world who didn't get saved before the 2nd coming (cf. also Ezekiel 20:34-38).
Ezekiel 34:11-16 does not and cannot refer to the gathering described in Matthew 24:31, at the Return of Jesus.
That chapter should be read in its entirety. It says how the shepherds of Israel have cared only for themselves and not for the people. Our situation today, with many false teachers and wrong theories promoted. God will judge between the fat sheep and the lean and punish the wrongdoers. Jeremiah 14:11-16, Isaiah 56:9-12
Then, His people will live in peace and prosperity, with good leaders. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11 They will know that God is with them and they are His people. Just as the ancient Israelites did. This proves it happens before Jesus comes.
You mention Ezekiel 20:34-38. This is another prophetic chapter that states it will only be after the Lord's people are in the holy Land that they will know that I am the Lord. Ezekiel 20:38b, Ezekiel 20:42a, Ezekiel 20:44a

Ezekiel 20:30-32 Go, tell the Israelites; the Lord God says: Are you defiling yourselves as your forefathers did and lusting after other gods? You are defiling yourselves this very day with your false religions and insincere faith. Israel, I refuse to be consulted by you. You can never be like the other nations, who worship idols.

Ezekiel 20:33-38 As I live, says the Lord, I shall reign over you with a strong hand and by My wrath, I shall bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the countries where you have been dispersed. I shall bring you into the Meeting place in the desert, there I shall confront you and bring you to judgement. Just as I did in Egypt with your forefathers, so I shall judge you. [as He did in the days of Egypt, therefore before the Return of Jesus] I shall make you pass under the rod [of judgement] and I will bring you into the bond of the Covenant. All those who rebel or revolt against Me will not set foot on the soil of Israel.

Ezekiel 20:39-42 Now, you Israelites – go serve your idols. But in days to come you will be punished for it, then no more will you desecrate My holy Name. For there, in the land of Israel, the entire House of Israel will serve Me. After I have restored you to the Land of your ancestors, I shall require your offerings and gifts and then I will accept you as a fragrant incense. Isaiah 45:16-17

Ezekiel 20:42-44 When I bring you back to the soil of Israel, you will despise yourselves for your past conduct and you will know that I am your God. Not as your wickedness deserves, but as the honour of My Holy Name demands. Isaiah 43:25

Ezekiel 20:45-48 The Word of the Lord came to me: Ezekiel, turn and face toward the South, prophesy to the desert of the Negev. Say to it: The Lord God says – I am about to set a fire in you and it will consume all flammable things. Its fiery flame will not be put out and all people from the South to the North will be scorched by it. All will see that it is I, the Lord, who has set it ablaze, not to be quenched. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Jeremiah 12:14
Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged


V 30-32 Judah and Israel alike are atheistic, apostate, pursue false religions and materialism. This is not their destiny. Isaiah 48:13, Isaiah 60:3.

V 33-38 After the Day of vengeance and wrath, the Lord will gather His people into the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:4,

V 39-44 Do as you will for now, but judgement will come. The present age. Isaiah 41:1, Hosea 12:2

In the Land, all true believers, Israelites or grafted in, will serve the Lord. Isa 26:2, Isa 29:22-23, Isa 66:20-21, 1 Peter 2:9-10. “You will know that I am your God” this phrase would be unnecessary if all of this prophecy takes place after the Return of Jesus. Therefore, this all happens before that. His people, a righteous nation, living in peace and security in the Holy Land – being “a light to the nations”. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10

V 45-48 There is no record of an event as described, happening in the Negev area. The description is what would result from a coronal mass ejection, [sunstrike] that will affect all the world. This is the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, ‘all will see that it is I, the Lord, who have set it ablaze, so it is not a man caused event such as a nuke war. Isaiah 63:1-6, Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1
 
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keras said in post 259:

Ezekiel 34:11-16 does not and cannot refer to the gathering described in Matthew 24:31 . . .

They can indeed be different. For Matthew 24:31 refers to the gathering together of the church (i.e. already-believing Jews and Gentiles) to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1), whereas Ezekiel 34:11-16 can refer to after Jesus' 2nd coming, at the start of the millennium, when he will gather to Israel all the surviving, elect genetic Israelites from around the world who didn't get saved before the 2nd coming (cf. also Ezekiel 20:34-38).

keras said in post 259:

That chapter should be read in its entirety. It says how the shepherds of Israel have cared only for themselves and not for the people.

Ezekiel 34:1-10 can refer to the rulers of ancient Israel, although it can apply by type to the church (1 Corinthians 10:11).

keras said in post 259:

Jeremiah 14:11-16

This was addressing Jeremiah himself, and refers to the people of Jerusalem and the false prophets at that time, which was shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 586 BC.

keras said in post 259:

Isaiah 56:9-12

Isaiah 56:10-12 can refer to both ancient Israel and the church today and historically.

keras said in post 259:

Jeremiah 30:21

"Their governor" could refer to "Nehemiah the governor" (Nehemiah 12:26) during the return of the Jews from their Babylonian Captivity (Jeremiah 30:18). It could also refer to Jesus during the millennium (Zechariah 14:9-11), after the captivity which will occur right before his 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-4).

keras said in post 259:

Hosea 1:11

This can refer to the millennium, when the "one head" of Israel will be Jesus (cf. Isaiah 9:6-7). When Hosea 1:11 says that they will "appoint themselves" one head, the original Hebrew word (suwm: H7760) translated as "appoint" can mean "regard", in the sense of giving heed to, such as regarding (suwm) God's Word in Exodus 9:21, or regarding (suwm), in the sense of caring about, that people are perishing in Job 4:20. So the original Hebrew translated as they shall "appoint themselves one head" can simply mean "they shall give regard to one head". I.e., they will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is their one true king (Isaiah 43:15, John 1:49, John 12:13).

keras said in post 259:

This proves it happens before Jesus comes.

Note that nothing requires that Hosea 1:11 will happen before Jesus comes.

keras said in post 259:

Ezekiel 20:30-32 Go, tell the Israelites; the Lord God says: Are you defiling yourselves as your forefathers did and lusting after other gods? You are defiling yourselves this very day with your false religions and insincere faith. Israel, I refuse to be consulted by you. You can never be like the other nations, who worship idols.

Ezekiel 20:30 Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations?
31 For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.
32 And that which cometh into your mind shall not be at all, that ye say, We will be as the heathen, as the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone.

This can refer to ancient Israel. Regarding "ye make your sons to pass through the fire" (Ezekiel 20:31), this refers to the ancient custom of burning babies as sacrifices to the pagan god Molech (Leviticus 18:21, Jeremiah 32:35).

keras said in post 259:

Ezekiel 20:33-38 As I live, says the Lord, I shall reign over you with a strong hand and by My wrath, I shall bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the countries where you have been dispersed. I shall bring you into the Meeting place in the desert, there I shall confront you and bring you to judgement. Just as I did in Egypt with your forefathers, so I shall judge you. [as He did in the days of Egypt, therefore before the Return of Jesus] I shall make you pass under the rod [of judgement] and I will bring you into the bond of the Covenant. All those who rebel or revolt against Me will not set foot on the soil of Israel.

Ezekiel 20:33 ¶As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

This will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming, and can refer to Jesus judging the surviving, genetic Israelites who didn't get saved before the 2nd coming (cf. also Ezekiel 34:11-16).

keras said in post 259:

Ezekiel 20:33-38 As I live, says the Lord, I shall reign over you with a strong hand and by My wrath, I shall bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the countries where you have been dispersed. I shall bring you into the Meeting place in the desert, there I shall confront you and bring you to judgement. Just as I did in Egypt with your forefathers, so I shall judge you. [as He did in the days of Egypt, therefore before the Return of Jesus] I shall make you pass under the rod [of judgement] and I will bring you into the bond of the Covenant. All those who rebel or revolt against Me will not set foot on the soil of Israel.

Regarding your insertion "as He did in the days of Egypt, therefore before the Return of Jesus", while Ezekiel 20:36 says "Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD", note that this in no way requires that Jesus will not have returned by that time, just as it in no way requires that he won't place the surviving, elect genetic Israelites at that time under the New Covenant (Ezekiel 20:37b), which did not exist at the time of Exodus, but was inaugurated at the time of the Cross (Matthew 26:28).

keras said in post 259:

Ezekiel 20:39-42 Now, you Israelites – go serve your idols. But in days to come you will be punished for it, then no more will you desecrate My holy Name. For there, in the land of Israel, the entire House of Israel will serve Me. After I have restored you to the Land of your ancestors, I shall require your offerings and gifts and then I will accept you as a fragrant incense.

Ezekiel 20:42-44 When I bring you back to the soil of Israel, you will despise yourselves for your past conduct and you will know that I am your God. Not as your wickedness deserves, but as the honour of My Holy Name demands.

Ezekiel 20:39 As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.
40 For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.
41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
42 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.
43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.
44 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 20:40-44 can refer to the millennium.

keras said in post 259:

Isaiah 43:25

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

This refers to the blessing of believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, under the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:34c,31, Matthew 26:28; 1 John 1:9,7b).

keras said in post 259:

Ezekiel 20:45-48 The Word of the Lord came to me: Ezekiel, turn and face toward the South, prophesy to the desert of the Negev. Say to it: The Lord God says – I am about to set a fire in you and it will consume all flammable things. Its fiery flame will not be put out and all people from the South to the North will be scorched by it. All will see that it is I, the Lord, who has set it ablaze, not to be quenched.

Ezekiel 20:45 ¶Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
46 Son of man, set thy face toward the south, and drop thy word toward the south, and prophesy against the forest of the south field;
47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
48 And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.

Here "the forest of the south" brings to mind the vast Congo forest, which is south of the Middle East, where Ezekiel was located when he received this prophecy (Ezekiel 20:45-47). The Congo forest could be burned by "flaming flame" (Ezekiel 20:47) at Jesus' 2nd coming in "flaming fire" (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

keras said in post 259:

Ezekiel 21:1-7

This can refer to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 586 BC.

keras said in post 259:

Jeremiah 12:14

This can refer to the destruction of the pagan nations neighboring ancient Judah, as well as ancient Judah itself, by the Babylonians in 586 BC. Jeremiah 12:15 can then refer to Judah's subsequent return from the Babylonian Captivity.

keras said in post 259:

Isaiah 48:13

Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Amen.

keras said in post 259:

Isaiah 60:3

This can refer to the millennium (cf. Micah 4:1-4).

keras said in post 259:

Isaiah 62:4

Isaiah 62:1-5 refers to the future time of the millennium (Micah 4:1-8, Isaiah 2:1-3).

keras said in post 259:

Isaiah 41:1

This can refer to any time.

keras said in post 259:

Hosea 12:2

This can refer to any time.

keras said in post 259:

Isa 26:2

This, in its context (Isaiah 26:1), can refer to the millennium.

keras said in post 259:

Isa 29:22-23

This can refer to the millennium.

keras said in post 259:

Isa 66:20-21

During the future millennium, after Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 66:15-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), Jesus will send out evangelists/missionaries to the nations to preach the gospel and tell them all about the returned Jesus' fame and glory in Jerusalem (Isaiah 66:19), so that people will want to come up to Jerusalem to serve him (Isaiah 66:20-21, Micah 4:2, Zechariah 8:22-23).

People will be saved by Jesus during the millennium in the same way that people have always been saved by Jesus: through faith in him (John 3:16,36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12) and his New Covenant sacrifice for our sins (Matthew 26:28, Romans 3:25) and his physical resurrection from the dead on the 3rd day after his death (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 10:9).

Those saved during the millennium will grow old and die just as people always have, but after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) they will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment along with all unsaved people of all times (Revelation 20:11-15). That is why not everyone at the great white throne judgment will be cast into the lake of fire, but only the unsaved (Revelation 20:15).

keras said in post 259:

1 Peter 2:9-10

This is referring to the church as Israel, for it is quoting from Exodus 19:5b-6 and Hosea 2:23, which refer to Israel.

1 Peter 2:9 refers to those in the church, who will reign with Jesus as kings and priests on the earth during the future millennium (Revelation 5:9-10, Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

keras said in post 259:

“You will know that I am your God” this phrase would be unnecessary if all of this prophecy takes place after the Return of Jesus.

Note that nothing requires that.

keras said in post 259:

Isaiah 42:6

This, like Isaiah 49:6, foretold that Jesus' gospel of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), would save both Jewish and Gentile believers (Acts 26:22-23, Luke 24:46-47). The New Covenant includes Gentile believers by grafting them into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16).

Isaiah 42:6c and Isaiah 49:6b started to be fulfilled at Jesus' 1st coming (Luke 2:32, Acts 26:23) and his sending forth of his apostles to the Gentiles (Acts 13:47, Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 26:17-18, Acts 22:21).

keras said in post 259:

Isaiah 43:10

Isaiah 43:10b shows that there will be no future Gods, just as there were no past Gods: YHWH has always been, is now, and forever will be the only God (Deuteronomy 4:35, Isaiah 45:5-6, Psalms 90:2b).

keras said in post 259:

[Ezek. 20] V 45-48 There is no record of an event as described, happening in the Negev area.

That's right, just as nothing in Ezekiel 20:45-48 requires any reference to what it called the "Negev" today. For the original Hebrew word (negeb: H5045) translated as the 3rd "south" reference in Ezekiel 20:46, and as "the south" in Ezekiel 20:47, can refer to the south of anything, such as the south side of the tabernacle (Exodus 26:18) or the temple (1 Kings 7:39), or the south side of any of the cities of the Levites throughout Israel (Numbers 35:5), or the south side of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8, Zechariah 14:10), or to any area south in latitude of Israel. For example, it is used to refer to Egypt in Daniel 11:5,15.

keras said in post 259:

The description is what would result from a coronal mass ejection, [sunstrike] that will affect all the world.

Note that nothing requires a coronal mass ejection, except possibly the 4th vial (Revelation 16:8).

keras said in post 259:

This is the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath . . .

That will be the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:15).

keras said in post 259:

Isaiah 63:1-6

This refers to Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will be the only one to fight the battle (Revelation 19:15,21), to tread the winepress of God's wrath (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15b).

keras said in post 259:

Isaiah 30:26

This (like Isaiah 62:4) is about the future, blessed time of the millennium (Isaiah 30:18-26). The bright sun in Isaiah 30:26 is a good thing, just as the bright moon and the healing in Isaiah 30:26 are good things.

keras said in post 259:

Malachi 4:1

Malachi 4:1-3 can refer to the burning up of only the physical bodies of some of the wicked people who will still be alive at Jesus' 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 1:7-8).
 
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