Church as Hospital, Christianity as Spiritual Therapy

Arsenios

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As Paul states we must be what they want us to be, in order to win their confidence to Orthodoxy.

I understand where you are coming from. I believe that we need to focus on the Jews to establish them as the 11th hour workmen, so that the Egyptians (symbol of Rome), can also come and genuinely serve with us.

We focus on where Christ leads us...

Arsenios
 
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jimmyjimmy

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So, what do people make of the hospital analogy for the Church?

The problem with the analogy is that it does not reflect what the real problem of mankind is. At best, it gives the lopsided idea that people are only victims, rather than perpetrators. Repent and be baptized is directed, not at victims, but perpetrators.

If the main problem with people is that they are broken or wounded, a counselor could fix that; however, the ultimate problem of man is that he is a sinner. He is living in rebellion to his Maker. Man's need is addressed at the cross, and only at the cross. Man needs forgiveness from God and reconciliation to God. Those are given by Christ at the cross.

I'll agree that man is broken in that he is not and does not what he was designed to do, as a broken clock fails to give the correct time.
 
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Arsenios

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The problem with the analogy is that it does not reflect what the real problem of mankind is.

We are born to die - Indeed we are born dead, as the Psalmist records in Ps 50/51:
"In sins did my mother bear me..."

This is our inheritance from Adam - Death...

Affirmed by Paul: 1Cor 2:9
"Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard,
neither have entered into the heart of man,
the things which God hath prepared
for them that love him."

We are born separated by death from God...

At best, it gives the lopsided idea that people are only victims,
rather than perpetrators.

Because death entered into the world through Adam's sin, and therefrom passed through into all those born in Adam, all have sinned... Sin is the wounding of death upon fallen man... The recovery of man from the wounds of sin through the deception of the evil one is what repentance is all about, and when a man is left for dead on the road of life by the demons who deceived him unto death, THEN Christ picks him up and treats his wounds, and takes him to the Church for the rest of his recovery...

He did this with Paul, whom Christ sent to Ananias to receive both his sight and the Holy Spirit...

So we are both perpetrators and victims, and the perpetrators are the most wounded of the victims...

Repent and be baptized is directed, not at victims, but perpetrators.

It is directed both to the Pharisees and the Publicans...

Less so to the Publican, who was the less wounded in the Parable...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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If the main problem with people is that they are broken or wounded,
a counselor could fix that;

Methinks you have not done much counselling...

however, the ultimate problem of man is that he is a sinner.

That is the secondary problem - Death is the primary, if you believe Paul.

He is living in rebellion to his Maker.

He is living in the valley of the shadow of Death...

Man's need is addressed at the cross, and only at the cross.

Indeed!

Man needs forgiveness from God and reconciliation to God.

He needs the burden of sin lifted, for sure... In order that he be reconciled...

But what he needs is Life, in order that he keep lifted the sin that was lifted...

Forgiveness is not enough

And this he receives from Christ, Who OVERCAME death by His Own Death...

And we are baptized into Christ's Death, in which we mortify our fleshy members...

Running the race set before us...

Those are given by Christ at the cross.

Only for those who have been baptized into Christ, and have put on Christ...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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Religion is about making people "better".
Christianity is about saving (dead) sinners by giving them new life.

There sure is a thing called the Sickness of Religion...

The Faith of Christ given to us through His Apostles is summarized here:

Repent and be Baptized...
For...
The Kingdom of Heaven...
Is at hand!

It is suffering violence...
And the violent are taking it...
By force...

Anyone who is willing...
After Me to be following...
Let him first deny himself...
Then take up his own cross...
And be following Me...

Teach them to carefully be observing...
All that I have commanded you to be doing...

If ye love me, keep my commandments.


And this Eternal Life IS...
To be KNOWING the One True God...
And His Son, Jesus Christ...


THAT knowing is union with God...
In the Marriage of the Lamb...
The Divinization of man...
Salvation by Grace...
Through the Faith of Christ...

Arsenios
 
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Job8

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So, what do people make of the hospital analogy for the Church?
That is certainly one aspect of the local church. If taken to its logical conclusion those who minister must minister to each individual within the assembly, as well as to the congregation. But the *therapists* are generally too busy with other things, and do not take this aspect of ministry seriously. As a result, many Christians suffer.
 
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Arsenios

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That is certainly one aspect of the local church. If taken to its logical conclusion those who minister must minister to each individual within the assembly, as well as to the congregation. But the *therapists* are generally too busy with other things, and do not take this aspect of ministry seriously. As a result, many Christians suffer.

Too true - And the trick is to find an experienced elder pastor who has experience in the matters giving trouble, and these are hard to find... And it is not just psychotherapy, because psychotherapy itself is not what is often needed, but instead a means of repentance that would often not be psychotherapeuticaly indicated, and to which psychotherapeutic methods might not be either appropriate or efficacious...

For most local churches, the local pastor does not have the skills needed to directly take on the issues that present themselves, either in pastoral counseling, or, in the case of the Eastern Orthodox Faith, in confession and repentance...

Arsenios
 
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Job8

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Too true - And the trick is to find an experienced elder pastor who has experience in the matters giving trouble, and these are hard to find... And it is not just psychotherapy, because psychotherapy itself is not what is often needed, but instead a means of repentance that would often not be psychotherapeuticaly indicated, and to which psychotherapeutic methods might not be either appropriate or efficacious...
You are correct in that psychotherapy is NOT capable of addressing spiritual matters. Yet too many Christian leaders have fallen into that trap. Also something which is generally ignored by churches is the fact that in the New Testament there was always a PLURALITY of elders. The responsibility for the flock did not fall on the shoulders of one man (and this goes all the way back to Moses). And certainly, all spiritual healing must begin with repentance -- turning away from self, sins, and idols, and turning to Christ exclusively for help and spiritual health. Too many preachers try to avoid the term *repentance* and what it implies. To apply the medical analogy, a scalpel is needed to remove a tumor.
 
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Arsenios

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You are correct in that psychotherapy is NOT capable of addressing spiritual matters. Yet too many Christian leaders have fallen into that trap. Also something which is generally ignored by churches is the fact that in the New Testament there was always a PLURALITY of elders. The responsibility for the flock did not fall on the shoulders of one man (and this goes all the way back to Moses). And certainly, all spiritual healing must begin with repentance -- turning away from self, sins, and idols, and turning to Christ exclusively for help and spiritual health. Too many preachers try to avoid the term *repentance* and what it implies. To apply the medical analogy, a scalpel is needed to remove a tumor.

The ancient Fathers of the Church had a very different understanding of the psyche of fallen man, because they understood it from the perspective of having been healed from that very psyche in their own souls... And it is from this very perspective of the healed human being in the medicines of immortality as they were unctioned in the Body of Christ that the Bible itself was written... So that for modern western understandings to approach the Bible and its teachings for human healing, they have to unlearn what they thought they knew, and adopt the Biblical view of the human being...

No small matter...

THEN they can understand purification of the heart, illumination of the nous, and union with God as the three progressive stages of discipleship in Christ...

Arsenios
 
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