The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

EmSw

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Uh, what, exactly, will one lose? Please advise.

You can read.

Your analysis misses the mark by a mile. v.14 is about receiving a reward. v.15 is about loss of a reward.

What you seem to miss is that what is built on the foundation are people. PEOPLE! Not your good or evil works.

1 Corinthians 9
16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel!
17 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship.
18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.


What was Paul's reward when he preached the gospel?
 
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FreeGrace2

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You can read.
So can you, I presume. So, what will we lose?

What you seem to miss is that what is built on the foundation are people. PEOPLE! Not your good or evil works.
Let's begin with the actual foundation. Which is Jesus Christ (1 Cor 3:11). No one builds "people" on that foundation. To "build upon that foundation" is saying to add advanced Biblical truths to that foundation, not people, for heaven's sake. That makes no sense to claim one builds "people" on that foundation.

v.12 - Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw
v.13 - each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

v.12 is the building materials, which contrasts the valuable lasting materials (advanced Biblical truths) vs non valuable and non lasting materials (human viewpoint).

What becomes evident in God's judgment (fire) is what kind of building materials one used in building on the foundation, which is Jesus Christ.

v.14 - If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

iow, the one who builds on the foundation from valuable lasting materials (advanced Biblical truths), he will be rewarded.

But…
v.15 - If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

iow, the one who used human viewpoint in his building on the foundation will suffer the loss of reward (from v.14), but he himself will still be saved.

Back to v.8 - Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

Those who build upon the foundation of Jesus Christ with Biblical truths will be rewarded. Those who get off into the weeds with false doctrines and human viewpoint will lose reward.

1 Corinthians 9
16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel!
17 For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship.
18 What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.


What was Paul's reward when he preached the gospel?
You can read as well as I.
 
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EmSw

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So can you, I presume. So, what will we lose?

Let's begin with the actual foundation. Which is Jesus Christ (1 Cor 3:11). No one builds "people" on that foundation. To "build upon that foundation" is saying to add advanced Biblical truths to that foundation, not people, for heaven's sake. That makes no sense to claim one builds "people" on that foundation.

What does a man build upon a foundation? Any guesses? It's not hard to know 'buildings' are built upon foundations. Do you agree with this? What do you propose are built on foundations? One needs not build truths on the foundation, for the foundation is Truth Itself. Let's look at some verses to see what is built.

Matthew 7:24
Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: (here, we have a house, or building).

Matthew 21:33
Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. (again, we have a building).

Luke 7:5
for he loves our nation, and has built us a synagogue. (here we have a synogogue, a building).

I think you get the gist. You build a building upon a foundation.

Since it makes no sense to you that people are buildings which are built on foundations, let's see what we can find on the subject. Maybe you will be enlightened by the following verses.

Ephesians 2
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

Ephesians 2:22
in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house,

I see you didn't include verse 9 from 1 Corinthians 3. I will give it here to show the context of this chapter.

For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.

Paul tells the Corinthians they are God's building. Amazing what you will learn from the Word, without any preconceived ideas.

Now we can go on with the rest of chapter 3, knowing what we learned from the previous verses.

v.12 - Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw
v.13 - each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

v.12 is the building materials, which contrasts the valuable lasting materials (advanced Biblical truths) vs non valuable and non lasting materials (human viewpoint).

What becomes evident in God's judgment (fire) is what kind of building materials one used in building on the foundation, which is Jesus Christ.

v.14 - If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

iow, the one who builds on the foundation from valuable lasting materials (advanced Biblical truths), he will be rewarded.

Since you think it is advanced Biblical truths, you can now lay aside this thinking, and believe what the Bible actually says. Or unless you can provide verses which confirm your belief.

But…
v.15 - If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

iow, the one who used human viewpoint in his building on the foundation will suffer the loss of reward (from v.14), but he himself will still be saved.

Back to v.8 - Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

Those who build upon the foundation of Jesus Christ with Biblical truths will be rewarded. Those who get off into the weeds with false doctrines and human viewpoint will lose reward.

Unless you can provide verses which state advanced Biblical truths are built on foundations, I'm afraid your human viewpoint is worthless.
 
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iron2iron

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Blame and responsibility are two different things.
I am responsible for what my children are blamed or praised for.
I am to blame for what I do. God is responsible for everything that happens inside His creation.
So if you go out and kill someone, God is responsible for that. A jury is going to have a had time with that. Yes, Christ died for all of our sins, but we are not without responsibility. Why did John cry in the wilderness, "REPENT"!
 
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iron2iron

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Yes, this suggests to me that Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security is a lie.
Believers have to do what is right in order to be in God's good graces.
For if God allowed His people to think they can do evil and still be saved would mean God would have to agree with that line of wrong thinking, too.

...
Jason, this guy was not a child of God, he was a slave, as we all are before we are born again. The Bible says that God gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him (Acts 5:32). And we must obey from the heart, Read Romans 6:17-18.
 
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iron2iron

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So far, so good.


God prepared the hearts of ALL Gentiles, not just some. Keep that in mind. Apparently He didn't prepare the hearts of any Jews, so He just gave them the Law. Would that be your view?


Acts 5:32 - “And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Listen to what Paul told the Galatians:
Gal 3:2,5
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

So, given what Paul told the Galatians, what do you think he meant in Acts 5:32 regarding "obey Him"?

Human effort, as expressed in works or deeds, or keeping the Law, all involve earning something. Grace means something NOT earned or deserved. In fact, grace EXCLUDES any earning or deserving.

Do you understand this?


Gracie, the Bible say's that the kindness of God leads us to repentance, this is Grace.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink, you can also drag that same horse to water, but you still can't make him drink! (that last one was for the Calvinists)

God leads us to repentance, but He does dose not make us repent, that is our responsibility. Grace is God giving us the chance to repent. He owes us nothing.

The problem is that we do not understand the difference between faith and works.

Works is doing what you want to do, to get to Heaven. This is what all the religions of the world do.

Faith is doing what the Holy Spirit tells you to do. It is something that happens in the heart. Read Romans 6:17
 
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Rick Otto

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So if you go out and kill someone, God is responsible for that. A jury is going to have a had time with that. Yes, Christ died for all of our sins, but we are not without responsibility. Why did John cry in the wilderness, "REPENT"!
There's no jury.
Being the responsible party is not the same as being the guilty party in this case.
God's call goes out to all in his providence, not in a false expectation of repentance, just as he sends rain on the crops of the wicked as well as the righteous.
It is the Lord giving and taking away. The call to repent is like the parable of the seed shower, who casts his seed on all kinds of ground, not just the ground that was chosen in creating it, to be good (elect) ground.
 
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Rick Otto

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There's no jury.
Being the responsible party is not the same as being the guilty party in this case.
God's call goes out to all in his providence, not in a false expectation of repentance, just as he sends rain on the crops of the wicked as well as the righteous.
It is the Lord giving and taking away. The call to repent is like the parable of the seed shower, who casts his seed on all kinds of ground, not just the ground that was chosen in creating it, to be good (elect) ground.
In so doing, God's purpose Paul iterates in Romans 9:22-23.
 
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iron2iron

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Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Matt 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Thursday, I totally agree with you, but we better make sure it is faith, and not works we are doing.

Works is doing what we think is right to get to Heaven. This is what all the religions of the world do.

Faith is doing what God tells us to do.

Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler what he must do to be saved, go, sell all that you have, and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven, but he walked away.

He said he observed all Ten commandments, (this was works) but Jesus told him to do something else, (this was faith) but he refused faith. He refused to do what Jesus told him to do.

Only God can see our hearts, so faith is obeying from the heart, the Word of God, but the Word can't penetrate our hearts, if our hearts are hard.
 
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iron2iron

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There's no jury.
Being the responsible party is not the same as being the guilty party in this case.
God's call goes out to all in his providence, not in a false expectation of repentance, just as he sends rain on the crops of the wicked as well as the righteous.
It is the Lord giving and taking away. The call to repent is like the parable of the seed shower, who casts his seed on all kinds of ground, not just the ground that was chosen in creating it, to be good (elect) ground.
Yes, but God commands us to get our hearts right. Jeremiah 4:3-4. If we have no responsibility then why does He command us to prepare our hearts?
 
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Rick Otto

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Yes, but God commands us to get our hearts right. Jeremiah 4:3-4. If we have no responsibility then why does He command us to prepare our hearts?
You haven't yet sorted out guilt and responsibility.
With all due respect, I don't want to help you get ahead of yourself.
 
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Rick Otto

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Thursday, I totally agree with you, but we better make sure it is faith, and not works we are doing.

Works is doing what we think is right to get to Heaven. This is what all the religions of the world do.

Faith is doing what God tells us to do.

Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler what he must do to be saved, go, sell all that you have, and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven, but he walked away.

He said he observed all Ten commandments, (this was works) but Jesus told him to do something else, (this was faith) but he refused faith. He refused to do what Jesus told him to do.

Only God can see our hearts, so faith is obeying from the heart, the Word of God, but the Word can't penetrate our hearts, if our hearts are hard.
Exactly. And that is what we need saving from - being in a place where we can't believe.
 
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iron2iron

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Exactly. And that is what we need saving from - being in a place where we can't believe.
We refuse to believe (obey), thus the rich young ruler, why would Jesus tell him to put up treasure in Heaven if he wasn't able to go to Heaven?
 
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Rick Otto

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We refuse to believe (obey), thus the rich young ruler, why would Jesus tell him to put up treasure in Heaven if he wasn't able to go to Heaven?
How else would you have been given a chance to ask why?
OK, you you don't seem to know what Rom9:22 says...

[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I bolded your answer for you. It is the basic default (broadest possible context) answer to why God does anything at all... why creation exists.
 
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We are guilty because we refuse responsibility.
Where has God abandoned responsibility for creating sinners who would crucify his son?
Are you suggesting He could somehow not have, give up, a control he already exercised in the act of creating?
Seems absurd.
...And suggesting instead of foreknowledge being a result of having a plan, he peeked into the future to see what would happen as an unplanned consequence of his creative act?
Seems impossibly awkward and contrived.God has not refused responsibility for his creatures good or bad, and he is not guilty of acts they commit.
You are responsible for your toddler's behaviour, but not guilty of biting whoever he might bite.
See a difference between guilt and responsibility yet?
 
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FreeGrace2

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What does a man build upon a foundation? Any guesses? It's not hard to know 'buildings' are built upon foundations. Do you agree with this? What do you propose are built on foundations? One needs not build truths on the foundation, for the foundation is Truth Itself. Let's look at some verses to see what is built.
Let's be clear. There are a lot of deceived believers out there who are building false doctrines upon the foundation of Christianity. Like limited atonement, irresistible grace, God chooses who will believe, true believers will persevere in the faith, and things like one can lose their salvation, etc.

Since it makes no sense to you that people are buildings which are built on foundations, let's see what we can find on the subject. Maybe you will be enlightened by the following verses.

Ephesians 2
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

Ephesians 2:22
in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house,

I see you didn't include verse 9 from 1 Corinthians 3. I will give it here to show the context of this chapter.

For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.

Paul tells the Corinthians they are God's building. Amazing what you will learn from the Word, without any preconceived ideas.

Now we can go on with the rest of chapter 3, knowing what we learned from the previous verses.
Please explain how one builds people into a building. Can you do that? What does that even mean?

We know the type of construction that Paul lists: gold, silver, precious stones, and wood, hay, straw. What do these mean? Are these types of people? Please explain how these refer to people.

Instead, they represent 2 types of construction of God's building. One type is permanent (gold, silver, gems) while the other type is impermanent and doesn't last (wood, hay, straw).

The issue is not good vs bad works, or even good vs bad people. It seems much more likely that Paul is discussion permanent vs impermanent works. iow, time spent watching sports, hunting, fishing, golfing are not bad works, but they are not works with eternal value. Unless one is evangelizing during that time.

Paul is encouraging the Corinthians to do what has eternal value. The testing of one's works, per 2 Cor 5:10 (Bema) will determine whether the work had eternal value or not (3:14,15).

Those believers who spent time doing works with eternal value will be rewarded, while those believers who wasted their time doing works with no eternal value will lose out on rewards.

Since you think it is advanced Biblical truths, you can now lay aside this thinking, and believe what the Bible actually says. Or unless you can provide verses which confirm your belief.
Please answer my questions and provide explanations as to why the issue is people themselves and how the passage supports that.

In fact, every believer will be evaluated at the Bema (2 Cor 5:10) to determine their quality of life in the eternal kingdom.

But if you want to continue to think that somehow you're going to use people to make buildings, I guess that's your right.

Instead, Paul's point is that believers whose works have no eternal value will see those works burn up at the Bema. They didn't last.

Unless you can provide verses which state advanced Biblical truths are built on foundations, I'm afraid your human viewpoint is worthless.
Instead of human viewpoint, which IS worthless, I will cite more Scripture.

Heb 6:1-2 - 1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

So, how does one leave the elementary teaching and press on to maturity?

And, note what has just preceded these verses:

5:11,12
11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

These believers have retrogressed in their spiritual lives. They had not matured, or advanced in the faith. They even needed to be taught the basic elementary teachings of Christ all over again.

So, to answer your last question, the foundation involves the "elementary teachings of Christ". And from that foundation, believers are to advance and press on to maturity. That obviously involves learning advanced doctrines, which is what "you ought to be teachers" refers to. Advanced knowledge, not just the basics.

Teachers must know much more than just the basics in order to really be teachers.

I'm just sorry if all this is new to you and you weren't aware of any of this.

But the evangelical church is in sorry shape today, it seems. Lacking in knowledge across the whole spiritual spectrum.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"Listen to what Paul told the Galatians:
Gal 3:2,5
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

So, given what Paul told the Galatians, what do you think he meant in Acts 5:32 regarding "obey Him"?

Human effort, as expressed in works or deeds, or keeping the Law, all involve earning something. Grace means something NOT earned or deserved. In fact, grace EXCLUDES any earning or deserving.

Do you understand this?"
Gracie, the Bible say's that the kindness of God leads us to repentance, this is Grace.
First, please get my name straight. I assume you can read well enough. Is your first name "Rusty"?

Second, what does your reply have to do with what I posted? I see no relevance. And I asked a question. Your post just talked over my post.

God leads us to repentance, but He does dose not make us repent, that is our responsibility. Grace is God giving us the chance to repent. He owes us nothing.
OK, I have always agreed with that.

The problem is that we do not understand the difference between faith and works.
Please don't speak for me. I most certainly do understand the difference.

[QUTOE]Works is doing what you want to do, to get to Heaven. This is what all the religions of the world do.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.

Faith is doing what the Holy Spirit tells you to do.
Doing is an action, a verb. Faith is a noun. Like believe and belief. Verb and noun.

It is something that happens in the heart. Read Romans 6:17
Absolutely believing comes from the heart. Where the conscience functions. Rom 2:14,15.
 
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EmSw

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Let's be clear. There are a lot of deceived believers out there who are building false doctrines upon the foundation of Christianity. Like limited atonement, irresistible grace, God chooses who will believe, true believers will persevere in the faith, and things like one can lose their salvation, etc.

Let's stick with what was presented to you, shall we?

Please explain how one builds people into a building. Can you do that? What does that even mean?

I gave you verses which state exactly that, but you choose to turn you head. If you don't want to believe what is in the Bible, then you will have to deal with God and His judgment with your own beliefs.

We know the type of construction that Paul lists: gold, silver, precious stones, and wood, hay, straw. What do these mean? Are these types of people? Please explain how these refer to people.

In the context of 1 Corinthians 3, yes, these are people, and the materials of which they are built. These materials represent the lives these people choose to live, once built.

Luke 6
46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like:
48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.
49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”


Here again, I will give Jesus' words of truth concerning building on the foundation.
The foundation is Jesus Himself.
Building upon the foundation, is like a man who comes to Him, hears His words, and DOES THEM! Like a house built with permanent materials (gold, silver, precious stones), the man who DOES what Jesus says, will stand against floods.
The man who does not build his house on the foundation, that is, hears and DOES NOT do what Jesus said, is like building with wood, hay, and stubble. When the flood beats against it, it will fall and the ruin will be GREAT!

Jesus even equates a building with man. But since you will have nothing to do this truth, you will have to provide your own interpretation.

Instead, they represent 2 types of construction of God's building. One type is permanent (gold, silver, gems) while the other type is impermanent and doesn't last (wood, hay, straw).

Exactly FG2. One type of people are permanent, and the other temporary, just as Jesus explains above and in the parable of the sower.

The issue is not good vs bad works, or even good vs bad people. It seems much more likely that Paul is discussion permanent vs impermanent works. iow, time spent watching sports, hunting, fishing, golfing are not bad works, but they are not works with eternal value. Unless one is evangelizing during that time.

Right, it is the people and their woks which indicate whether they will last or be destroyed.

Paul is encouraging the Corinthians to do what has eternal value. The testing of one's works, per 2 Cor 5:10 (Bema) will determine whether the work had eternal value or not (3:14,15).

Those believers who spent time doing works with eternal value will be rewarded, while those believers who wasted their time doing works with no eternal value will lose out on rewards.

Your main theme seems to get rewards from the Lord. Is seems you will only do what the Lords says if you get your hands on rewards. You only obey the Lord to NOT lose rewards.

Please answer my questions and provide explanations as to why the issue is people themselves and how the passage supports that.

If you are looking for rewards in trying to defeat me in believing what the Bible says, I do not accept. You will have to get your rewards somewhere else.

In fact, every believer will be evaluated at the Bema (2 Cor 5:10) to determine their quality of life in the eternal kingdom.

But if you want to continue to think that somehow you're going to use people to make buildings, I guess that's your right.

Did you even read what I wrote about people are buildings? How is it that you desire to dispute the very word of God?

If you don't believe what is in the Bible, please don't try to convince others of your beliefs. Please don't! Besides, you will not get any rewards for not believing the Bible.
 
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In the context of 1 Corinthians 3, yes, these are people, and the materials of which they are built. These materials represent the lives these people choose to live, once built.
That is just what I explained to you in my previous post.

Here again, I will give Jesus' words of truth concerning building on the foundation.
The foundation is Jesus Himself.
Building upon the foundation, is like a man who comes to Him, hears His words, and DOES THEM! Like a house built with permanent materials (gold, silver, precious stones), the man who DOES what Jesus says, will stand against floods.
The man who does not build his house on the foundation, that is, hears and DOES NOT do what Jesus said, is like building with wood, hay, and stubble. When the flood beats against it, it will fall and the ruin will be GREAT!
It appears you've mixed some parables. They weren't designed to be mixed. Each parable stands on its own with its own point.

Jesus even equates a building with man. But since you will have nothing to do this truth, you will have to provide your own interpretation.
You've not shown in any sense how my explanation doesn't fit the text.

Exactly FG2. One type of people are permanent, and the other temporary, just as Jesus explains above and in the parable of the sower.
Once again, mixing parables of Jesus with Paul's metaphors. And you missed my point; it isn't the people who are permanent or temporary, but their WORKS.

Right, it is the people and their woks which indicate whether they will last or be destroyed.
Nope. The metaphor deals with whether the builder will be rewarded or lose reward, obviously.

Your main theme seems to get rewards from the Lord.
That's where they come from. And why should I reject the Lord's very words Himself: "“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done." Rev 22:12 That's sure clear to me.

Is seems you will only do what the Lords says if you get your hands on rewards.
You've got it backwards. One has to be obedient in order to get rewarded.

You only obey the Lord to NOT lose rewards.
Seems that is offensive to you. Why?

If you don't believe what is in the Bible, please don't try to convince others of your beliefs. Please don't! Besides, you will not get any rewards for not believing the Bible.
Oh, but I do believe the Bible. Why don't you believe Jesus' words in Rev 22:12?
 
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