Why so much dissension and discord here?

mmksparbud

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You see---there it starts. You believe I'm wrong and are quite willing to argue with me about it, aren't you?---Well, there are plenty of threads around here about the Sabbath and that is not the topic. But you will stand on your believes, and I will stand on mine. This has been debated for years and there are several denominations that keep the Sabbath, not just mine. Is it arguing or is it inquiring, learning, searching the word of God and praying for insight??
 
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Extraneous

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You see---there it starts. You believe I'm wrong and are quite willing to argue with me about it, aren't you?---Well, there are plenty of threads around here about the Sabbath and that is not the topic. But you will stand on your believes, and I will stand on mine. This has been debated for years and there are several denominations that keep the Sabbath, not just mine. Is it arguing or is it inquiring, learning, searching the word of God and praying for insight??

I dont care that you keep the sabbath. It doesnt bother me. I was only making a point.
 
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MerriestHouse

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I know you addressed this question to another member, but i would like to answer it as well, if i may. I agree that we should speak truth, and the truth is that we should put away all these things that divide us, instead of clinging to them and arguing about them. Paul said that its about love. James says its about taking care of needy people and keeping ourselves free from worldliness, keeping ourselves clean.. Debate makes us dirty not clean. It defiles us spiritually. If only we would embrace that teaching and pitch the tradition out the door, then we could have a lot less needless harmful debate, It is is harmful.

People argue for the need of debate, but usually its used to argue their false doctrines, not the truth.

That's fine, I'm glad you replied. We are to speak the truth in love. Christians are united in Christ. We can love each other beyond our disagreements. Some Christians are treated like second class citizens because of their differences of opinion, and I do not think Jesus would approve. He received us with all of our faults, and he tells us to welcome each other the same way that he welcomed us. Romans 15:7 "Welcome one another, therefore, as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God."

The Apostles had disagreement among themselves, but they kept sight of their goal, and so should we.
 
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MerriestHouse

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This would be the controversial forum and much of the controversies challenge orthodox Christian beliefs.

Otoh, this is the Internet. It isn't church. The Internet absolutely fosters and keeps false Christian theology and heresies alive. This is a place for people to learn and challenge each other because the people here like that. The challenge here is to play the debate game civilly and to know the difference between what is attacking some and what is attacking a belief separate from the individual. Many don't know the difference.

Now I must ask was Stephen's speech classified as peacemaking? Yes it was, because it pointed people to the peacemaker. What is not peaceful is false theology. It hates peace. There is not peace in the controversial forum because those who are spreading controversial messages hate peace. Blame it on them for going against orthodox Christianity.

Truth must come before unity when the gospel itself is challenged.
 
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mikedsjr

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I know you addressed this question to another member, but i would like to answer it as well, if i may. I agree that we should speak truth, and the truth is that we should put away all these things that divide us, instead of clinging to them and arguing about them. Paul said that its about love. James says its about taking care of needy people and keeping ourselves free from worldliness, keeping ourselves clean.. Debate makes us dirty not clean. It defiles us spiritually. If only we would embrace that teaching and pitch the tradition out the door, then we could have a lot less needless harmful debate, It is is harmful.

People argue for the need of debate, but usually its used to argue their false doctrines, not the truth.
Harmful debates. Really? What is the harm from an outsider just viewing a thread to see both sides of an argument? What harm specifically are you referring to within this forum?
 
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Extraneous

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That's fine, I'm glad you replied. We are to speak the truth in love. Christians are united in Christ. We can love each other beyond our disagreements. Some Christians are treated like second class citizens because of their differences of opinion, and I do not think Jesus would approve. He received us with all of our faults, and he tells us to welcome each other the same way that he welcomed us. Romans 15:7 "Welcome one another, therefore, as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God."

The Apostles had disagreement among themselves, but they kept sight of their goal, and so should we.

Thanks for the reply.
 
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MerriestHouse

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Harmful debates. Really? What is the harm from an outsider just viewing a thread to see both sides of an argument? What harm specifically are you referring to within this forum?

1 Cor 11:19 "for there must be factions (divisions) among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized." Paul gives us a good reason for debate.
 
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MerriestHouse

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You see---there it starts. You believe I'm wrong and are quite willing to argue with me about it, aren't you?---Well, there are plenty of threads around here about the Sabbath and that is not the topic. But you will stand on your believes, and I will stand on mine. This has been debated for years and there are several denominations that keep the Sabbath, not just mine. Is it arguing or is it inquiring, learning, searching the word of God and praying for insight??

:) There are more examples in the NT where the disciples assembled on the seventh day than there are of them assembling on the first day. I observe every day in honor of the Lord.

Romans 14:5 One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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God's word teaches us to avoid endless debating and controversies because it is unprofitable and worthless.

Titus 3:9-11
"But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless....
Are you a peace maker? I pray God would show us all how to be more peaceful and gracious towards one another.
Which argument - that debates contending for morals and doctrine is wrong - is not only engaging in what you condemn, but examples ignorance of Scripture. For what is censured is foolish controversies, not divisive contentions for morals and basic doctrine themselves, which the Lord Himself and Paul engaged in, and exhorted. For to stand for anything absolute is divisive, and if essential then it warrants contending for it against contradictions. As well as separating such from felloeship.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29)


While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, (Matthew 22:41-43)

Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. (Acts 17:16-17)

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; (Titus 1:12-13)

They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. (Proverbs 28:4)

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. (Ephesians 5:11)

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. (2 Timothy 4:2)


But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. (Galatians 2:11)

Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. (1 Timothy 5:20)

Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. (1 Timothy 1:20)

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. (2 Thessalonians 3:6)

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? (2 Corinthians 6:14)

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (1 Corinthians 5:11)

Sounds like a lot of contention and division to me.

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (Luke 12:51-53)

For there must be also divisions among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. (1 Corinthians 11:19)

 
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PeaceByJesus

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I thought somewhere it said "let no man judge you in regards to holy days or Sabbaths, etc"
I vaguely remember that
meat and drink, too, I think

Which (Col. 2:16) does not pertain to basic moral laws and doctrinal truths, but have to do with manifest typological ceremonial laws, "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation." (Hebrews 9:10)

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. (Galatians 4:9-10)


In contrast, 9 out of the 10 commandments are reiterated in the NT, and such things as idolatry, sexual relations outside valid marriages (which is only btwn opposite genders), adultery, etc are distinctly forbidden, and brethren are commanded to separate from impenitent practitioners of such as well as those who deviate from basic doctrine. .

See post below.
 
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Anto9us

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Thank you, PeaceByJesus, for those verses.

Yes we could be judged about major things like idolatry and adultery, but are to let no one judge us about the things which are really just

Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)

a SHADOW.

We are fellow Christians -- sometimes arguing about a SHADOW !!

Big Whoop if SDA's wanna go to church on Saturday -- they are technically RIGHT about 'sabbath' -- it never changed from "Friday evening thru Saturday evening" as far as I know.

SDA's don't have "bad doctrine" as far as I have read, they just

GO TO CHURCH ON SATURDAY --

SO WHAT?

In my town an SDA congregation and a Presbyterian one

SHARED A CHURCH BUILDING --

Makes sense to me - SDA's fill it on Saturday, Presbyterians fill it on Sunday;
Everybody's happy and they split the rent... (or payments on mortgage or whatever)

It went on 'til one congregation built up enough to get their own building elsewhere.

I just don't think Gentile Christians are required to observe 'sabbath' or a lot of Mosaic Law - there were some 'bare minimums' given in Acts 15 when Gentiles were discussed

"If the MINIMUM wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the MINIMUM."


- just a Wild Olive Branch grafted in...

- Anto9us, Singer of Songs
 
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Thank you, PeaceByJesus, for those verses.

Yes we could be judged about major things like idolatry and adultery, but are to let no one judge us about the things which are really just.
Including judging others for judging?

a SHADOW. We are fellow Christians -- sometimes arguing about a SHADOW !!
Because the devil gets into the details, looking to take advantage of ambiguity regarding certain texts in order to employ them to support false doctrine in seeking to seduce souls to heed him, so as the keep God from getting the honor/glory which He alone is worthy of, which the thieving lying devil lusts for, and hate the Divine principle of merit=rewards, disobedience=penalties, and mercy and grace to those who do the latter,, as for the devil he thinks that having the glory of God is his right.
Big Whoop if SDA's wanna go to church on Saturday -- they are technically RIGHT about 'sabbath' -- it never changed from "Friday evening thru Saturday evening" as far as I know.
But their doctrine on the Sabbath historically (today you have an ecumenical SDA which affirms evangelicals, as well as the cultic historical types) was not simply a preference, with a "live and let live attitude toward other Christians, but was a key path of their elitist doctrine, in which they alone are the real remnant, who will refuse to the take the Mark, that of having to worship on Sunday under government mandate.

those who reject God's memorial of creatorship--the Bible Sabbath--choosing to worship and honor Sunday...will receive the mark of the beast." - Seventh-day Adventists Believe, p. 167, Review and Herald (1989).

And there are many SDA's yet expecting it today (who are unlikely to vote for Cruz).

"Sunday laws will come, and when the movement for their passage begins, we should be there to counter them as we are instructed to do.' - adventistsaffirm.org/article/165/previous-issues/volume-19-number-3/sunday-laws-in-an-age-of-freedo.
More. http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd28.htm

They also deny eternal punishment, "that people have a separate conscious immortal part of their being that continues to exist after death' and instead teach that "the second death refers to annihilation (or extinction) of the unrepentant, rather than a continual and eternal conscious torment."
- https://www.adventist.org/en/belief...urrection/article/go/-/waking-up-to-eternity/

However [this is part of an edit of prior statements] while some annihilationists deny much of any suffering after death, SDAs do teach that when wicked will be raised on the day of judgment. God will inflict on the wicked "conscious pain of whatever degree and duration God may justly determine," "But in the end...the wicked will be consumed entirely and be no more." http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell4.html

Yet since SDAs deny that people have a separate conscious immortal part of their being that continues to exist after death, ultimately this still means that the Lord in Lk. 16:19ff is using science fiction for the first and only time (since it would be a parable, in which the Lord only used known physical realities to represent spiritual ones), and is essentially bluffing about it being better to pluck out an eye if sinning by that would send you into unquenchable fire where "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched," (Mk. 9:45) as meaning eternal.

Annihilation after even 70+ decades of fulfilling lust lacks much deterrent effect, as rather than suffering unquenchable fire and eternal punishment in the lake of fire the Lord sends them to along with the devil, (Mt. 25:41,46) who "shall be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rv. 20:10) the lost would only need fear some some indeterminate degree and duration of suffering for sins, and with a lost petty thief who would never go so far as to hurt people ultimately realizing the same eternal end as a Hitler.

They also believe in soul-sleep, but which is not a major issue.

Thus while we need not contend about which day one esteems as the Lord's day, SDA's tend to at least look down on those who hold the first day as the distinctive day of worship. And which is part of their rejection of obedience to ceremonial laws
being the abrogated.

And is more them who earnestly contend for the 7th day sabbath being required obedience. I debated one here a while back, showing him that unlike the other of the 10 commandments, the 4th was conspicuously never repeated or reiterated under the New Covenant, while being relegated to abrogated ceremonial laws, leaving to assert that Rv. 14:7 ("Fear God, and give glory to him") did so.

Nor is any actual NT church, meeting as such, shown specifically keeping the 7th day, while the only specific day the NT believers are recorded as meeting on was the first one (which actually was from Sat. sundown to Sun. sundown), leaving him to try to make Acts 13:42-44 into a NT church.

In my town an SDA congregation and a Presbyterian one SHARED A CHURCH BUILDING --
Which makes sense, but does not mean they fellowship together, which is what your argument needs but would be highly unlikely.
 
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Chriliman

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Which argument - that debates contending for morals and doctrine is wrong - is not only engaging in what you condemn, but examples ignorance of Scripture. For what is censured is foolish controversies, not divisive contentions for morals and basic doctrine themselves, which the Lord Himself and Paul engaged in, and exhorted. For to stand for anything absolute is divisive, and if essential then it warrants contending for it against contradictions. As well as separating such from felloeship.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29)


While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, (Matthew 22:41-43)

Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. (Acts 17:16-17)

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; (Titus 1:12-13)

They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. (Proverbs 28:4)

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. (Ephesians 5:11)

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. (2 Timothy 4:2)


But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. (Galatians 2:11)

Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. (1 Timothy 5:20)

Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. (1 Timothy 1:20)

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. (2 Thessalonians 3:6)

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? (2 Corinthians 6:14)

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (1 Corinthians 5:11)

Sounds like a lot of contention and division to me.

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (Luke 12:51-53)

For there must be also divisions among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. (1 Corinthians 11:19)

I definitely agree there must be divisions, but only because we still live in a fallen world. Divisions arise when one is prideful and doesn't want to admit they're wrong, either to man or to God.

If we all truly submit ourselves to God and seek His guidance, there would be no divisions among us because God is not against Himself.

If we want to see Gods love at work in our lives, we must submit to Him and stop thinking we know it all and are always right or that we have all the answers. God gives favor to the humble, but opposes the proud. I try to remember this always, whether I'm on these forums or face to face.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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If you want to debate about SDA--please open a thread and do so--you're stating some things that are a bit whacked and this is not the thread to be doing this on.

I see nothing "whacked," but if you feel compelled to debate the exposure then let me know when you start a thread. I already engaged in extended debate with a sabbatharian whose desperate recourse was an argument against being such and do not look forward to more of the same.
 
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