Immaculate conception of Mary?

Dec 16, 2011
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The EO poster I addressed is simply arguing from what he has already concluded without providing any substantial evidence - that the Roman Church had broken from the Apostolic Tradition. :D

:angel:

J.A.
Well, to one with Holy Tradition no explanation is necessary. To one without Holy Tradition, no explanation is possible.
 
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prodromos

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I agree that with St. Irenaeus and the Catholic Church that Sacred Tradition is preserved through union with the Succession of Bishops at Rome, who teach that Mary is immaculately conceived.
That isn't, however, what St Irenaeus says.
 
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I agree that with St. Irenaeus and the Catholic Church that Sacred Tradition is preserved through union with the Succession of Bishops at Rome, who teach that Mary is immaculately conceived.
Many people would agree with you. I think that Matthew 16:23 is worthy of deep contemplation by such.
 
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justinangel

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Well, IF you are right on the Latin [Jerome's?] Text, then the Latin Church has re-written the Bible...

KJV – Wherefore , as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:

I will give you the wooden translation:
BYZ
δια τουτο ωσπερ δι ενος ανθρωπου
Through this just as through one man

η αμαρτια εις τον κοσμον εισηλθεν
sin into the kosmos entered

και δια της αμαρτιας ο θανατος
and through this sin Death (entered the kosmos)

και ουτως εις παντας ανθρωπους
also thus into all mankind

ο θανατος διηλθεν
Death passed through (into all mankind)

εφ ω
upon which (Death)

παντες ημαρτον
all (mankind) have sinned.

You will notice that the word GUILT is NOT in the Biblical text here at all...
Your Latin text has re-written the Biblical text to read GUILT instead of DEATH...

No WONDER we understand this differently!

I just had dinner, so I don't need any red herring.

Propterea sicut per unum hominem peccatum in hunc mundum intravit, et per peccatum mors, et ita in omnes homines mors pertransiit, in quo omnes peccaverunt.

It was through one man that
guilt came into the world; and, since death came owing to guilt, death was handed on to all mankind by one man. (All alike were guilty men;

In the Latin Vulgate: peccatum = sin; peccaverunt = sinned (All alike were sinful men.); mors = death.

The Douay Rheims Bible:

Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

There are many words that refer to "sin" in the Hebrew OT, each which has a slightly different connotation while referring to wrongdoing. There are six different nouns and three verbs that describe sin more than six hundred times in the OT. For instance, with regard to guilt, chatta'ath (חַטָּאָת) is a feminine noun most often translated as "sin" or "offense. It carries the implication of that which is deserving of punishment.[ויחר ליעקב וירב בלבן ויען יעקב ויאמר ללבן מה-פשעי מה חטאתי כי דלקת אחרי] 'And Jacob being angry, said in a chiding manner: For what fault of mine, and for what offence (חַטָּאָת) on my part hast thou so hotly pursued me? [tumensque Iacob cum iurgio ait quam ob culpam meam et ob quod peccatum sic exarsisti post me] (Gen. 31:36). The word is used in association with the sin offering: [ופר חטאת תעשה ליום על-הכפרים וחטאת על-המזבח בכפרך עליו ומשחת אתו לקדשו ] 'And thou shalt offer a calf for sin (חַטָּאָת) every day for expiation. And thou shalt cleanse the altar when thou hast offered the victim of expiation, and shalt anoint it to sanctify it' [et vitulum pro peccato offeres per singulos dies ad expiandum mundabisque altare cum immolaris expiationis hostiam et ungues illud in sanctificationem (Ex. 29:36); one other usage of this word is in the context of expiation or purification: [וכה-תעשה להם לטהרם הזה עליהם מי חטאת והעבירו תער על-כל-בשרם וכבסו בגדיהם והטהרו ולקחו פר בן-בקר ומנחתו סלת בלולה בשמן ופר-שני בן-בקר תקח לחטאת ]'According to this rite: Let them be sprinkled with the water of purification, and let them shave all the hairs of their flesh. And when they shall have washed their garments, and are cleansed, They shall take an ox of the herd, and for the offering thereof fine flour tempered with oil: and thou shalt take another ox of the herd for a sin offering.' [iuxta hunc ritum aspergantur aqua lustrationis et radant omnes pilos carnis suae cumque laverint vestimenta sua et mundati fuerint. tollant bovem de armentis et libamentum eius similam oleo conspersam bovem autem alterum de armento tu accipies pro peccato] (Num. 8:7-8); the word is also used in the context of punishment for sins (the penalty of sin), even in a collective or corporate sense in which those who have remained faithful to the covenant are deemed righteous are nonetheless implicated in the sin of the nation. [תם-עונך בת-ציון לא יוסיף להגלותך פקד עונך בת-אדום גלה על-חטאתיך ] 'Thy iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Sion, he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he hath visited thy iniquity, O daughter of Edom, he hath discovered thy sins.' [conpleta est iniquitas tua filia Sion non addet ultra ut transmigret te visitavit iniquitatem tuam filia Edom discoperuit peccata tua] (Lam.4:22). Calamity and misfortune are consequences of sin, which is evil in God's sight. [ דברו על-לב ירושלם וקראו אליה כי מלאה צבאה כי נרצה עונה כי לקחה מיד יהוה כפלים בכל-חטאתיה ] Speak ye to the heart of Jerusalem, and call to her: for her evil is come to an end, her iniquity is forgiven: she hath received of the hand of the Lord double for all her sins. [loquimini ad cor Hierusalem et avocate eam quoniam conpleta est malitia eius dimissa est iniquitas illius suscepit de manu Domini duplicia pro omnibus peccatis suis] (Isa. 40:2). Hebrew words have different layers of meaning and can be used in different contexts as with regard to sin.


All of which obfuscates the Biblical role of death in the matter of sin as Paul so clearly expressed it...

The doctrine of the human race being implicated in Adam's sin reflects an ancient Jewish notion which Paul himself held being a Jew. He expresses himself on the subject in a mode his Jewish audience was familiar with and used themselves. And they fully understood that the apostle intended to convey by his words ideas connected to their Judaic heritage. "On account of the counsel given to Eve (and her eating the fruit,) all the inhabitants of the world were constituted guilty of death." [Targum on Ruth 4:22]. The OT writers had an acute sense of their inherited sinfulness (Psalm 51:5), and they believed that God visited the iniquities of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hated (sinned against) Him as their fathers did (Exodus 20:5). 'Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; only for his own guilt (a sin - חֵטְא) shall a man be put to death.' (Deut. 24:16). In Jewish thought, sin and death are concommitant with each other. They are causally related with death being the consequence of sin and guilt. It's bad hermeneutics to focus strictly on literal grammar. Although Paul wrote his epistle in Greek, we must place this verse in the broader context of his doctrine of justification in Romans and go by the analogy of scripture when interpreting the meaning of it. Above all, we should keep in mind that the apostle was a Jew who was addressing Jews from a shared perspective.

Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned. - NAB (Catholic Bible)


Paul explicitly assigns the universality of death to Adam’s sin The Greek word eph’hô ( literally “upon which” or “for which”) can be translated by the phrase "inasmuch as". In this passage death appears to be a later consequence of personal sin. In other words, Paul seems to imply that our individual deaths are the result of our own personal sinfulness, not of Adam’s primordial sin. The descendants of Adam unto all generations have incurred death for their own guilt in association with Adam, the father of the human race. The consequences of Adam's fall have spread to the whole human race. Death came to everybody "inasmuch all sinned". The whole human population includes infants and young children who have never sinned, but certainly will. This translation means that each human being is responsible only for their own sins. Adam is simply the proto-type or father figure of all future sinners, each of whom in being like their father bears responsibilty for their personal sins, and thereby the consequences. 'Only for his own guilt shall a man be put to death' (Deut. 24:16). We do not participate with Adam in his sin, and so it cannot be passed on to us. But we are guilty by association.

The Latin phrase ‘in whom (in quo) all have sinned’ is acceptable provided that it is properly understood. This translation can be taken to mean the passing on of Adam's sin to all future generations of desendants in the sense that human nature has been infected as a result of Adam's sin. The disposition towards sin (ancestral sin) is something we have inherited from Adam on a generic scale. Attendant upon his sin is our responsibilty for turning away from God in our own lives. By the sin of Adam, sin has become so deeply rooted in our human nature, which in and of itself is good, however wounded or tarnished. The truth is there isn't one descendant of Adam, save the Mother of God, who has been exempted from the hereditary inclination towards sin. 'Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners; so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just' (Romans 5:18-19). Finally, The name Adam (Hebrew: אָדָם) can be translated as "man" or "mankind". So in Romans 5:12, for instance, the subject, Adam ("one man") can be referred to in a collective sense. There is a common identity that exists between Adam and the human race.


Death did not spread, like butter, to all people... It 'passed through' - dia + elthein - The third dia in this passage, which is a study in them... We are, in terms of union with God, which IS Eternal Life, all born dead... THAT is our inheritance from Adam's transgression... It is because of this death into which we are born that all have sinned, because the Fruit is of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and in God there is NO evil at all, so that IF we know - Biblically - eg are 'one with' - BOTH Good AND Evil, then we are NOT in union with God, which is why the Gospel reads: "Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of God is at hand" (here and now)... We have, for our salvation, the task of repenting from the evil into which we are born in the death we have inherited, so as to make ourselves ready for union with God, Who is the Lover of Mankind...

We are born dead into good and evil -
We overcome evil by repentance -
We are accepted by God in the Marriage of the Lamb...

If by death you mean spiritual death, I agree. However, physical death passed on all men on condition that all sinned - starting with Adam, who wasn't born dead. He forfeited immortality (a preternatural gift) both for himself and his offspring by offending God. Death was incurred by Adam after he sinned. Physical death is meant in Genesis.

And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2, 7

And the Lord God took man, and put him into the paradise for pleasure, to dress it, and keep it. And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat: But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. for in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

Genesis 2, 15-17

And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou eat the herbs of the earth. In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return.
Genesis 3, 17-19

Sin entered into the world (η αμαρτια εις τον κοσμον εισηλτεν — hē hamartia eis ton kosmon eisēlthen). Personification of sin and represented as coming from the outside into the world of humanity. Paul does not discuss the origin of evil beyond this fact. There are some today who deny the fact of sin at all and who call it merely “an error of mortal mind” (a notion) while others regard it as merely an animal inheritance devoid of ethical quality.


And so death passed unto all men (και ουτως εις παντας αντρωπους διηλτεν — kai houtōs eis pantas anthrōpous diēlthen). Note use of διερχομαι — dierchomai rather than εισερχομαι — eiserchomai just before, second aorist active indicative in both instances. By “death” in Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:19 physical death is meant, but in Romans 5:17, Romans 5:21 eternal death is Paul‘s idea and that lurks constantly behind physical death with Paul.


For that all sinned (επ ωι παντες ημαρτον — Ephesians' hōi pantes hēmarton). Constative (summary) aorist active indicative of αμαρτανω — hamartanō gathering up in this one tense the history of the race (committed sin). The transmission from Adam became facts of experience. In the old Greek επ ωι — Ephesians' hōi usually meant “on condition that,” but “because” in N.T.

(Archibald T. Robertson, Greek NT Grammar, p. 963).

:angel:

Justinius Angelus

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"Only if it's a Mcintosh."
 
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Arsenios

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I just had dinner, so I don't need any red herring.


Here - Have a McIntosh instead! :)

Propterea sicut per unum hominem
peccatum in hunc mundum intravit, et per peccatum mors, et ita in omnes homines mors pertransiit, in quo omnes peccaverunt.

It was through one man that
guilt came into the world; and, since death came owing to guilt, death was handed on to all mankind by one man. (All alike were guilty men;

In the Latin Vulgate: peccatum = sin; peccaverunt = sinned (All alike were sinful men.); mors = death.


Good - You are NOT re-writing the Bible - You are simply mistranslating the Latin, which clearly also states SIN, and which you translate as GUILT... Sin is an action... Guilt is a state of being consequent on a certain kind of action... The relationship of sin to death is at the core here, and not guiltiness... If you sin, you die... Adam sinned, and died... Death always precedes dissolution of the body...

The Douay Rheims Bible:
Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

There are many words that refer to "sin" in the Hebrew OT, each which has a slightly different connotation while referring to wrongdoing. There are six different nouns and three verbs that describe sin more than six hundred times in the OT. For instance, with regard to guilt, chatta'ath (חַטָּאָת) is a feminine noun most often translated as "sin" or "offense. It carries the implication of that which is deserving of punishment.[ויחר ליעקב וירב בלבן ויען יעקב ויאמר ללבן מה-פשעי מה חטאתי כי דלקת אחרי] 'And Jacob being angry, said in a chiding manner: For what fault of mine, and for what offence (חַטָּאָת) on my part hast thou so hotly pursued me? [tumensque Iacob cum iurgio ait quam ob culpam meam et ob quod peccatum sic exarsisti post me] (Gen. 31:36). The word is used in association with the sin offering: [ופר חטאת תעשה ליום על-הכפרים וחטאת על-המזבח בכפרך עליו ומשחת אתו לקדשו ] 'And thou shalt offer a calf for sin (חַטָּאָת) every day for expiation. And thou shalt cleanse the altar when thou hast offered the victim of expiation, and shalt anoint it to sanctify it' [et vitulum pro peccato offeres per singulos dies ad expiandum mundabisque altare cum immolaris expiationis hostiam et ungues illud in sanctificationem (Ex. 29:36); one other usage of this word is in the context of expiation or purification: [וכה-תעשה להם לטהרם הזה עליהם מי חטאת והעבירו תער על-כל-בשרם וכבסו בגדיהם והטהרו ולקחו פר בן-בקר ומנחתו סלת בלולה בשמן ופר-שני בן-בקר תקח לחטאת ]'According to this rite: Let them be sprinkled with the water of purification, and let them shave all the hairs of their flesh. And when they shall have washed their garments, and are cleansed, They shall take an ox of the herd, and for the offering thereof fine flour tempered with oil: and thou shalt take another ox of the herd for a sin offering.' [iuxta hunc ritum aspergantur aqua lustrationis et radant omnes pilos carnis suae cumque laverint vestimenta sua et mundati fuerint. tollant bovem de armentis et libamentum eius similam oleo conspersam bovem autem alterum de armento tu accipies pro peccato] (Num. 8:7-8); the word is also used in the context of punishment for sins (the penalty of sin), even in a collective or corporate sense in which those who have remained faithful to the covenant are deemed righteous are nonetheless implicated in the sin of the nation. [תם-עונך בת-ציון לא יוסיף להגלותך פקד עונך בת-אדום גלה על-חטאתיך ] 'Thy iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Sion, he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he hath visited thy iniquity, O daughter of Edom, he hath discovered thy sins.' [conpleta est iniquitas tua filia Sion non addet ultra ut transmigret te visitavit iniquitatem tuam filia Edom discoperuit peccata tua] (Lam.4:22). Calamity and misfortune are consequences of sin, which is evil in God's sight. [ דברו על-לב ירושלם וקראו אליה כי מלאה צבאה כי נרצה עונה כי לקחה מיד יהוה כפלים בכל-חטאתיה ] Speak ye to the heart of Jerusalem, and call to her: for her evil is come to an end, her iniquity is forgiven: she hath received of the hand of the Lord double for all her sins. [loquimini ad cor Hierusalem et avocate eam quoniam conpleta est malitia eius dimissa est iniquitas illius suscepit de manu Domini duplicia pro omnibus peccatis suis] (Isa. 40:2). Hebrew words have different layers of meaning and can be used in different contexts as with regard to sin.


Jews are not Christians... [Except for those who are...]

The doctrine of the human race being implicated in Adam's sin reflects an ancient Jewish notion which Paul himself held being a Jew. He expresses himself on the subject in a mode his Jewish audience was familiar with and used themselves. And they fully understood that the apostle intended to convey by his words ideas connected to their Judaic heritage. "On account of the counsel given to Eve (and her eating the fruit,) all the inhabitants of the world were constituted guilty of death." [Targum on Ruth 4:22]. The OT writers had an acute sense of their inherited sinfulness (Psalm 51:5), and they believed that God visited the iniquities of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hated (sinned against) Him as their fathers did (Exodus 20:5). “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; only for his own guilt (a sin - חֵטְא) shall a man be put to death. (Deut. 24:16). In Jewish thought, sin and death are concommitant with each other. They are causally related with death being the consequence of sin and guilt. It's bad hermeneutics to focus strictly on literal grammar. Although Paul wrote his epistle in Greek, we must place this verse in the broader context of his doctrine of justification in Romans and go by the analogy of scripture when interpreting the meaning of it. Above all, we should keep in mind that the apostle was a Jew who was addressing Jews from a shared perspective.
Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned. - NAB (Catholic Bible)
Paul explicitly assigns the universality of death to Adam’s sin The Greek word eph’hô ( literally “upon which” or “for which”) can be translated by the phrase "inasmuch as". In this passage death appears to be a later consequence of personal sin. In other words, Paul seems to imply that our individual deaths are the result of our own personal sinfulness, not of Adam’s primordial sin. The descendants of Adam unto all generations have incurred death for their own guilt in association with Adam, the father of the human race. The consequences of Adam's fall have spread to the whole human race. Death came to everybody "inasmuch all sinned". The whole human population includes infants and young children who have never sinned, but certainly will. This translation means that each human being is responsible only for their own sins. Adam is simply the proto-type or father figure of all future sinners, each of whom in being like their father bears responsibilty for their personal sins, and thereby the consequences. 'Only for his own guilt shall a man be put to death' (Deut. 24:16). We do not participate with Adam in his sin, and so it cannot be passed on to us. But we are guilty by association.

The Latin phrase ‘in whom (in quo) all have sinned’ is acceptable provided that it is properly understood. This translation can be taken to mean the passing on of Adam's sin to all future generations of desendants in the sense that human nature has been infected as a result of Adam's sin. The disposition towards sin (ancestral sin) is something we have inherited from Adam on a generic scale. Attendant upon his sin is our responsibilty for turning away from God in our own lives. By the sin of Adam, sin has become so deeply rooted in our human nature, which in and of itself is good, however wounded or tarnished. The truth is there isn't one descendant of Adam, save the Mother of God, who has been exempted from the hereditary inclination towards sin. 'Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners; so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just' (Romans 5:18-19). Finally, The name Adam (Hebrew: אָדָם) can be translated as "man" or "mankind". So in Romans 5:12, for instance, the subject, Adam ("one man") can be referred to in a collective sense. There is a common identity that exists between Adam and the human race.


When a Jewish Christian writes in Greek about matters theologic, as Paul here is doing, the general rule is simple literality in word usage. Exegetically, the text clearly states in Greek "UPON WHICH", and this WHICH refers to DEATH... We "have all sinned" because we are born into Adam's DEATH... He 'lived' almost a thousand years in that death... It was through him that sin made the way for death to enter into the kosmos wherein there had been no death...

If by death you mean spiritual death, I agree.

Death is death - The physical just takes longer...


However, physical death passed on all men on condition that all sinned - starting with Adam, who wasn't born dead.

Death is death - The physical just takes longer...


Is there an echo in here?? :)

We are born outside the Garden in Adam's death that results in physical dissolution...

When you get as old as me, you will have a better idea of what I am talking about...

He forfeited immortality (a preternatural gift) both for himself and his offspring by offending God. Death was incurred by Adam after he sinned. Physical death is meant in Genesis.

Adam died the very DAY that he sinned and did not repent...
THAT is why he was cast from the Garden...
God did not want Adam's death eating of the Tree of Life immortalizing death...


And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2, 7


er... DUST???

Sin entered into the world (η αμαρτια εις τον κοσμον εισηλτεν — hē hamartia eis ton kosmon eisēlthen). Personification of sin and represented as coming from the outside into the world of humanity.

Your theta key seems not to be working...:

και δια της αμαρτιας ο θανατος [εισηλθεν]

And through Sin, Death [entered]

And so death passed unto all men (και ουτως εις παντας αντρωπους διηλθεν — kai houtōs eis pantas anthrōpous diēlthen). Note use of διερχομαι — dierchomai rather than εισερχομαι — eiserchomai just before, second aorist active indicative in both instances. By “death” in Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:19 physical death is meant, but in Romans 5:17, Romans 5:21 eternal death is Paul‘s idea and that lurks constantly behind physical death with Paul.

You are going Protestant on me, and leaving out parts of the text... And dicing it up... You left out thanaton - It is DEATH that passed through into all men through one man's sin... It is DEATH that entered into the Kosmos and passed through it into all men... Physical death is God's mercy... Gen 2:17 means death, immediately that day... It clearly does NOT mean physical death, because Adam 'lived' another 900+ years physically...

For that all sinned (επ ωι παντες ημαρτον — Ephesians' hōi pantes hēmarton). Constative (summary) aorist active indicative of αμαρτανω — hamartanō gathering up in this one tense the history of the race (committed sin). The transmission from Adam became facts of experience. In the old Greek επ ωι — Ephesians' hōi usually meant “on condition that,” but “because” in N.T.

UPON WHICH is dative of cause...

(Archibald T. Robertson, Greek NT Grammar, p. 963).


You HAVE the big Yellow BOOK?

Love ya, Bro!

Arsenios


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"Only if it's a Mcintosh."[/QUOTE]
 
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patricius79

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Many people would agree with you. I think that Matthew 16:23 is worthy of deep contemplation by such.

I don't see any denial of the Immaculate Conception there. Rather, because the Created Daughter of God, Mary, is Immaculate, she suffered tremendously (more than we can every understand)--in union with Her Divine Son-for the sake of our salvation. That is the suffering that Rock was trying to save his Savior from.
 
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I don't see any denial of the Immaculate Conception there. Rather, because the Created Daughter of God, Mary, is Immaculate, she suffered tremendously (more than we can every understand)--in union with Her Divine Son-for the sake of our salvation. That is the suffering that Rock was trying to save his Savior from.
It's possible that the need for deeper contemplation is being indicated here.
 
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patricius79

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It's possible that the need for deeper contemplation is being indicated here.

I think we can always be trying to go deeper in contemplation, which will always lead us closer to the truth of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the Spouse of God the Holy Spirit.
 
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justcoolforyou

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When was it first put forth?

Was it in the 18th century?

Arsenios
The Mariology of the Immaculate Conception comes from the fathers biblical understanding that Mary is the "New Eve" ; "Graced One". In history biblically there are only 4 people made immaculate Adam and eve of old testament times and Jesus and Mary ; New Adam , New Eve. Both groups of persons are made of the same flesh....
 
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Albion

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The Mariology of the Immaculate Conception comes from the fathers biblical understanding that Mary is the "New Eve" ; "Graced One".
Yes, that argument has been voiced on these forums before, but while that may be the answer, it's not much of an answer. After all, with such weak connections as those, you could invent just about ANY legend involving Mary--that she grew wings and could fly, that she journeyed to heaven and back, that she could make herself invisible whenever she chose...anything.

"New Eve" and "Graced one" are so unspecific that they amount to little more than excuses for the making of a new doctrine.
 
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justcoolforyou

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ANY legend involving Mary--that she grew wings and could fly, that she journeyed to heaven and back, that she could make herself invisible whenever she chose...anything.".

Funny the woman in Rev. 12 does grow wings lol and is seen in heaven. ..

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. - Revelation 12:1,14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation12:1,14&version=NIV


This video shows the biblical reason why Mary is seen by the fathers in the bible as new eve and ark of the covenant:
 
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Albion

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This video shows the biblical reason why Mary is seen by the fathers in the bible as new eve and ark of the covenant
The point is that she could have been all that...and not be the immaculate conception.

There is actually no particular connection, which is why I said that making this fanciful linkage amounts more to an excuse for the doctrine than evidence or proof of it.
 
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justcoolforyou

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The point is that she could have been all that...and not be the immaculate conception.

There is actually no particular connection, which is why I said that making this fanciful linkage amounts more to an excuse for the doctrine than evidence or proof of it.
Would you agree that adam and eve in Genesis where both immaculate?
 
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Albion

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Would you agree that adam and eve in Genesis where both immaculate?
Both were sinners; that's clear from Genesis. And if you want to spin the original state of Adam and Eve at the point of creation and before they sinned, you'll also have to explain why the "New Eve" didn't have all of Eve's attributes, not just sinlessness at the moment of creation. The whole line of argument is arbitrary and inconsistent.
 
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justcoolforyou

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Both were sinners; that's clear from Genesis. And if you want to spin the original state of Adam and Eve at the point of creation and before they sinned, you'll also have to explain why the "New Eve" didn't have all of Eve's attributes, not just sinlessness at the moment of creation. The whole line of argument is arbitrary and inconsistent.
Which attributes?
 
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justcoolforyou

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Both were sinners; that's clear from Genesis. And if you want to spin the original state of Adam and Eve at the point of creation and before they sinned, you'll also have to explain why the "New Eve" didn't have all of Eve's attributes, not just sinlessness at the moment of creation. The whole line of argument is arbitrary and inconsistent.
Then everything can be spin against Jesus since he is the new Adam...
 
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Albion

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Which attributes?
As you know, Adam and Eve were guileless at the time of their creation, but they were also endowed with physical immortality, shamelessness when naked, and all the rest that Genesis says they lost when they were driven from the Garden. She wasn't even given the name Eve until after they committed their sins!

Mary had none of these attributes or benefits; she was a descendant of Adam and Eve in this regard just like all the rest of us.
 
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As you know, Adam and Eve were guileless at the time of their creation, but they were also endowed with physical immortality, shamelessness when naked, and all the rest that Genesis says they lost when they were driven from the Garden. She wasn't even given the name Eve until after they committed their sins!

Mary had none of these attributes or benefits; she was a descendant of Adam and Eve in this regard just like all the rest of us.
Nor did Jesus... the cross proved it yet his the new adam
 
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