How do you know

I was brought up in the Marine Corp and it was not considered manly for men to touch one another. I was also in the rock and roll scene and loved the groups Aero-Smith, Kiss, Ted Nugent, Kansas, and Bob Seager to name a few.

My point of view changed with the likes of the early 1900's type Pentecostalism in which I spent the summer after high school with my grandmother and had a rather eventful run in with the Pentecostal Holiness church, as this area of Virginia was in a time capsule, I got an experience of early 1900's Pentecostal anointing.

I fell in with the Pentecostal Holiness church not because of the tongues, but because of the people, which were the finest I have ever met in my entire life. Pictured below is Dallas Linkous JR, which is probably the 'shoutingest' man I have ever met in my entire life. As a teenager I would put up hay with him and go with him to the revivals at night. Both him and his wife were tongue talking, shouting, happy type Pentecostals. The joy was there equally there at home as well as at work. Every one of the fruits of the spirit lamped within their lives like a great over heated pot belly stove. The men would sit on the left side and the woman on the right. During the altar time the old men would sit back in the pew and weep. And if any of them caught the look in my amazed eye they would declare, with tears running down their cheek and a finger pointing at the souls laid about at the altar, 'The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!' There was also a decency among the people like I have never seen. My grandfather was good friends with Dallas. In the 1950's they would have revivals that would go for weeks and early in the AM. Granny said that grandfather could worship the Lord until 2 AM and not have any trouble at all rising at 6 AM for work.

I remember well as a young man Dallas coming behind me to pray with me at the alter, with tears running down his cheek and onto my neck. As a guy who did not like to be touched this was quite profound. At the end of that summer we had a good revival in which the Lord seemed there in a mighty way. On reading the book, 'Run Baby Run,' by Nikki Cruise, I felt a voice telling me to put the book down. I paused, and then continued again to read. The voice said again, 'Put the book down.' I slept in my Grandmothers living room on an old fold away cot by the open living room door. The Katydids seemed to be singing very loud that night. There in my Grandmothers clean linens I heard the Spirit speak again, 'Where is all the stress, worry and hatred?' In which, upon examining my heart, there was nothing there but pure beauty. I thought to myself. 'Oh my! I got exactly what those people got!' I would spend the rest of the summer rejoicing with the people and in revival.



The Pentecostal Cure-All is to be filled with the Spirit. If we can get you guys saved, sanctified, and filled with the Holy Spirit you won't be going around questioning things because the very Spirit of God will bare witness with your spirit that you are a child of God.

This type of religion actually got its start in these parts back in the 1700's. GC Rankin was kind enough to share the story, which is exactly how I got it over 100 years later...

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/im-so-confused.7929734/page-3#post-69239883

And in the words of GC Rankin, "During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life."

Aryeh Jay said:

Spooky! Do you have sharp teeth, claws, horns and a pointy tail?

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No, I just gained a lot of unkempt facial hair.

MehGuy said:

No, I just gained a lot of unkempt facial hair.

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Aww, that’s not a horrible creature.

Thanks for a great reply

I think a major flaw in Christian thinking is the idea of 'belief without proof' being faith. It makes for a thing loosely called easy-believism... One can believe just exactly the same way in the unicorns, the tooth fairy, santa clause and etcetera ad infinitum. It is an unfortunate truth, because YHWH's proofs are extraordinary (in the literal sense of the word), and can withstand scrutiny.

Rather, believe the promises because of the proofs. I think that to be the proper purpose of faith.

cloudyday2 said:

I agree with you on this.
Like most people I believe the earth is spherical, because I learned that in school.

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Precisely right, with the exception of a very few that have calculated the truth, or seen the truth firsthand.

Knowing that Jesus was resurrected is not too different from knowing that Julius Caesar was assassinated. Resurrections are supernatural, and Julius Caesar was more important during his life. I can't think of too many other differences.

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I see you from here... with the exception of the martyrdom of all of his peeps for his cause... and the tremendous effect of his ministry - The words of a nondescript redneck boy from the back country of a rather nondescript and insignificant nation thunder down the halls of time. That is not without significance...

But as for proof, I think you'll have to pan back a ways...
Ultimately, Yeshua is proven in the prophecy, but you have to prove YHWH before you will understand the need for Yeshua. What is the need for a redeemer if there is no law, and what of the law unless the Ultimate Law-Giver is able to enforce it?

Finally, empirical evidence can be wrong. A hallucination is empirical evidence, because it is directly observed by human senses.

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Normally true. But mathematics does not lie. And the prophecy of YHWH is chocked full of mathematical proofs. And the text itself... Man! what amazing mathematical proofs guard the text!

This whole topic (epistemology?) is confusing. I think nothing is certain, so when I hear people distinguishing between knowledge and faith, I disagree.

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See my intro.

We humans can know nothing for certain.

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Yes we can. Many things are perfectly true. Again, it's hard to beat math. And I know of a fact that my eyes are blue. I know there's carpet under my feet..' I know there's a tree outside the door. I know (See I'm prophesying) that spring is on it's way...

'Subjective' is subjective. HAH! Much that you are, much that you see, and feel, and touch, and smell, and taste are real with a certainty... Sometimes folks overthink things. Science has trained us to disbelieve our own lying eyes... And with it went any chance of seeing for one's self.

Resist. Prove. Believe.

awitch said:

I would argue that the use of prophets at all is nonsensical. It's downright foolish for a deity to allow the potential for miscommunication and false prophets.

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Imagine if you will, a need to speak to your family behind enemy lines... Only now, imagine you need to tell them something across 4000 years, through many messengers, that will stand, not only in each present generation, ready for them to find it, but for every generation within 6000 years.

Also, I reject prophecy on the belief that the future is unwritten.

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I will surely disagree with you. the prophets of YHWH predict things to the very day. Provably so in Daniel and Isaiah, both books with extant copies (from two different sources) two hundred years before Messiah. Yeshua Messiah fulfilled the spring feasts so perfectly, so incrementally, and more importantly, exactly on time. To the minute. That is pretty hard to reject. And all of the prophecy is like that - just not with extant versions so far back.

I see nothing extraordinary about the Torah, nor do I find it supernatural in any way.

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I would suggest endeavoring to prove the text, rather than what it contains. How can you tell that the text is as it was given? That is the important first step, right?

Kinda dry work, but I defy you to study the encryption that guards the text without being utterly amazed. No scribe without a computer could have created such a thing. And I don't think it an easy thing even with a computer, leaving the surface text beautifully legible. It's masterful. And it isn't what the encrypted text says so much (which is plenty), but that you come to realize how perfectly the text comes down to us in order for that encryption to exist.

Do you know what empirical evidence is?

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Prove the text. prove the prophets.

roamer_1 said:

Imagine if you will, a need to speak to your family behind enemy lines... Only now, imagine you need to tell them something across 4000 years, through many messengers, that will stand, not only in each present generation, ready for them to find it, but for every generation within 6000 years.

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That doesn't make sense.

I will surely disagree with you. the prophets of YHWH predict things to the very day. Provably so in Daniel and Isaiah, both books with extant copies (from two different sources) two hundred years before Messiah. Yeshua Messiah fulfilled the spring feasts so perfectly, so incrementally, and more importantly, exactly on time. To the minute. That is pretty hard to reject. And all of the prophecy is like that - just not with extant versions so far back.

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I know some Jews who could do a much better job explaining how many of the prophecies are unfulfilled. The rest are so general they mean nothing. It's like when I predict hurricanes off the cost of Florida this coming August.

I would suggest endeavoring to prove the text, rather than what it contains. How can you tell that the text is as it was given? That is the important first step, right?

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I don't think the text is as it was given. But being extraordinary is already subjective.

Kinda dry work, but I defy you to study the encryption that guards the text without being utterly amazed. No scribe without a computer could have created such a thing. And I don't think it an easy thing even with a computer, leaving the surface text beautifully legible. It's masterful. And it isn't what the encrypted text says so much (which is plenty), but that you come to realize how perfectly the text comes down to us in order for that encryption to exist.

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Again, super subjective. The "encrypted" text is so ambiguous, filled with contradictions, and doesn't reflect the natural world which I wouldn't expect to find in an instruction set who's audiences' eternal souls depend upon. It shouldn't even be encrypted.

If you like encryption, I'm a computer scientist by trade and I'm far more impressed with WPA2-Enterprise/AES.

Prove the text. prove the prophets.

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That's your job.

awitch said:

I know some Jews who could do a much better job explaining how many of the prophecies are unfulfilled.

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I'll bet I know just as many that will set them straight...

And I didn't point you at Daniel without good reason:

Daniel is proved in the Septuagint in Greek, 200 years before Yeshua.
Daniel 9 is perfectly precise. A simple matter to count the days.

The rest are so general they mean nothing.

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Then you simply haven't studied. There is much that still remains, but there is very much that has been fulfilled. Pick up Isaac Newton's works, if you can find them... A brilliant mathematician, as you well know, but his obsession was the Prophets... and the math of them. And he didn't do too bad figuring it out... He was off a touch, but considering where he was in time, and the preconceived notions he had from the church, He did a great job.

I don't think the text is as it was given. But being extraordinary is already subjective.

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Then you'll have to explain to me how seven different types of encryption remain embedded in the text, undisturbed.

Again, super subjective. The "encrypted" text is so ambiguous, filled with contradictions, and doesn't reflect the natural world which I wouldn't expect to find in an instruction set who's audiences' eternal souls depend upon. It shouldn't even be encrypted.

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Then you simply don't know what you are saying. What are you talking about?

If you like encryption, I'm a computer scientist by trade and I'm far more impressed with WPA2-Enterprise/AES.

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I'm in programming myself... As far as 'impressed', I'd be more impressed if WPA/AES was encoded into a body of generated text, and have the surface text remain, not merely legible words, but words built into incredibly meaningful and poetic substance. Oh, and a couple thousand pages long... If you get there, I'll be impressed.

That's your job.

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No, my job was to convince ~me~

Speaking of programming, the foundation of the computer logic is Boolean algebra. On his death bed George Boole had a vision in which he tells his wife that the whole universe seemed to be spread before him like a great black ocean, where there was nothing to see and nothing to hear, except that at intervals a silver trumpet seemed to sound across the waters, 'For ever, O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven.' - Psalm 188:29

“He felt called by God to explain mathematically the laws of the world,” says Canon Dr Mark Hocknull, of Lincoln Cathedral and the University of Lincoln, who will be delivering a lecture on Boole. Indeed, says Hocknull, religion offered the Victorian professor a sizable challenge. “[In the Laws of Thought] he wants to prove logically the existence of God.”

rockytopva said:

Speaking of programming, the foundation of the computer logic is Boolean algebra.

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I don't know much wrt science, but I can recognize 4bit code in DNA. Intelligent. Ordered. Coding. I don't know how that could generate 'junk code' that improves it... Stuffing arbitrary junk into my software somehow never makes it better.

roamer_1 said:

I'll bet I know just as many that will set them straight...

And I didn't point you at Daniel without good reason:

Daniel is proved in the Septuagint in Greek, 200 years before Yeshua.
Daniel 9 is perfectly precise. A simple matter to count the days.

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What makes you think Daniel 9 is about the final King of Israel and not about the destruction of the Temple?

I bet nobody you know could "set me straight".

LoAmmi said:

I bet nobody you know could "set me straight".

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So you agree with the following comment (which is what I replied to)?

awitch said:

I know some Jews who could do a much better job explaining how many of the prophecies are unfulfilled. The rest are so general they mean nothing. It's like when I predict hurricanes off the cost of Florida this coming August.

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Our obvious differences aside, I don't know many Jews that consider the Prophets to be of so little value. I know no Jew, Messianic or otherwise, that doesn't sense a quickening of things, and most can find 1948 and 1967 in the Prophecy, and see the restoration of Israel as profoundly significant... It was in that context that I said 'I'll bet I know just as many that will set them straight...'

LoAmmi said:

What makes you think Daniel 9 is about the final King of Israel and not about the destruction of the Temple?

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I think it is plainly about both. This bit is pretty hard to get around:


It's a very precise measurement. There are four decrees to start from... Should be pretty easy to prove, don't you think?

roamer_1 said:

I think it is plainly about both. This bit is pretty hard to get around:

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. ​

It's a very precise measurement. There are four decrees to start from... Should be pretty easy to prove, don't you think?

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Who do you believe this Messiah the Prince is?

I have often found the idea that seven weeks and "threescore and two weeks" are put like that when, in Hebrew, the context would be "Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and in threescore and two weeks (62) the street shall be built again....".

In other words, from the time the word to rebuild Jerusalem was given, 49 years would pass (seven weeks) and Cyrus would allow the Temple to be rebuilt. It would stand for sixty two weeks. We see this in the next part.

And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.

This is about the destruction of the Temple and how someone anointed by the Lord would be killed. This is most likely, in my opinion, be the high priest. Let's do the math:

Temple built around 350 BCE according to Jewish tradition. That being the case, add 434 (62 weeks) and you get 82. Yeah, that's 12 years off, but if we're estimating 12 years fits within a 1 week period. Secular dating would actually put it in 516 BCE which doesn't even get it into CE. So, either way, we're not at 30.

The problem with it being Jesus here that's cut off is that 30 years, or about four weeks, are unaccounted for between the death of Jesus and the destruction of the Sanctuary. It isn't mentioned and adding it in is simply disingenuous when we're talking about how it adds up exactly.

@LoAmmi and @roamer_1 ,
I think most people believe the Daniel 9 prophecy refers to persecution under Antiochus IV. Daniel 9 was written after these events had already happened ("ex eventu prophecy") to make it seem that it was all part of God's plan. Also the book of Daniel was probably composed by several different authors. Some parts are more modern than other parts and seem to have been written in different languages.

At the start of the second century BCE, the Seleucids had the upper hand in their struggle with the Ptolemaic kingdom for regional dominance, but the earlier conflicts had left them nearly bankrupt. The Seleucid ruler Antiochus IV attempted to recoup some of his kingdom's fortunes by selling the post of Jewish high priest to the highest bidder, and in 171/0 BCE the existing high priest (i.e. Onias III) was deposed and murdered. Palestine was subsequently divided between those who favored the Hellenistic culture of the Seleucids and those who remained loyal to the older Jewish traditions; however, for reasons that are still not understood, Antiochus IV banned key aspects of traditional Jewish religion in 168/7 BCE—including the twice daily continual offering (cf. Dan 8:13; 11:31; 12:11).

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks

cloudyday2 said:

@LoAmmi and @roamer_1 ,
I think most people believe the Daniel 9 prophecy refers to persecution under Antiochus IV. Daniel 9 was written after these events had already happened ("ex eventu prophecy") to make it seem that it was all part of God's plan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks

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If the secular dating is correct, it could actually somewhat line up with that.

I would point out that I believe Daniel to be written before that due to it being in (mostly) Hebrew.

LoAmmi said:

If the secular dating is correct, it could actually somewhat line up with that.

I would point out that I believe Daniel to be written before that due to it being in (mostly) Hebrew.

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Here is something from Wikipedia on the composition of Daniel. Like most of the books in the Bible, it seems to have gone through several phases of editing. I didn't realize that Daniel was not included in the Hebrew Bible.

Daniel's exclusion from the Hebrew Bible's canon of the prophets, which was closed around 200 BC, suggests it was not known at that time, and the Wisdom of Sirach, from around 180 BC, draws on almost every book of the Old Testament except Daniel, leading scholars to suppose that its author was unaware of it.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel

cloudyday2 said:

Here is something from Wikipedia on the composition of Daniel. Like most of the books in the Bible, it seems to have gone through several phases of editing. I didn't realize that Daniel was not included in the Hebrew Bible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel

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Daniel isn't included in the Prophets section of it, but the Wikipedia article is wrong in why it isn't included.

LoAmmi said:

Daniel isn't included in the Prophets section of it, but the Wikipedia article is wrong in why it isn't included.

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So what is the real reason it isn't included?

cloudyday2 said:

So what is the real reason it isn't included?

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Daniel isn't a prophet. It's actually pretty simple.

LoAmmi said:

Daniel isn't a prophet. It's actually pretty simple.

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Hmmm... because Daniel was a fictional person or some other reason? It seems to me that prophets have messages for the people (e.g. "repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is near"). I suppose Daniel was more of a seer than a prophet?