Immaculate Conception

Extraneous

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We are never instructed to to hold fast to traditions or instructions which are outside of scripture. We are instructed to keep only the instructions of those who also wrote scripture. That's the context. We are also instructed by John to keep what was given in the beginning. He said that we need no teacher. In essance John is saying all we need is the scripture and the holy spirit.

If we study scripture instead of listening to teachers, we will see that what we are taught is so simple that nothing needs added to it.
 
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patricius79

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We are never instructed to to hold fast to traditions or instructions which are outside of scripture. We are instructed to keep only the instructions of those who also wrote scripture. That's the context. We are also instructed by John to keep what was given in the beginning. He said that we need no teacher. In essance John is saying all we need is the scripture and the holy spirit.

If we study scripture instead of listening to teachers, we will see that what we are taught is so simple that nothing needs added to it.

I hear where you are coming from. However, the Word of God is handed on both orally and in writing. Nobody in Scripture teaches the idea that Scripture stands alone. Scripture says to hold fast to the traditions just as they were given, whether orally or by letter. That is the living word of God. So our job is to find the true Church and hold fast to what she hands on to us, whether in writing or orally. So I have to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter, because that's exactly what Scripture and the Church say. Otherwise I would not be following the Word of God. The Word of God teaches that Mary is the Immaculate New Eve, the Mother of Jesus Christ, our God, whom she conceived in her womb. As Scripture says, she is named "Having-Been-Endowed-With-Grace" and "She Who Believed".
 
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Extraneous

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I hear where you are coming from. However, the Word of God is handed on both orally and in writing. Nobody in Scripture teaches the idea that Scripture stands alone. Scripture says to hold fast to the traditions just as they were given, whether orally or by letter. That is the living word of God. So our job is to find the true Church and hold fast to what she hands on to us, whether in writing or orally. So I have to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter, because that's exactly what Scripture and the Church say. Otherwise I would not be following the Word of God. The Word of God teaches that Mary is the Immaculate New Eve, the Mother of Jesus Christ, our God, whom she conceived in her womb. As Scripture says, she is named "Having-Been-Filled-With-Grace" and "She Who Believed".


There is no true Church. Not one in particular anyway. There is only the word of Christ and our faith. What do Catholics, or any other Church, have that i do not? Nothing that i can see, except maybe more religious stuff to worry about, stuff that the Lord never gave to us nor intended to. They can worship that way if they want, i wont stand in there way, not that anyone could anyway, but i worship God just as he instructed us, to the best of my ability. I know in my heart that God didn't really ask that much of us. What more do i need besides a bible, the spirit, and fellowship with other believers? Is there something more?
 
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PeaceByJesus

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The Bible--the Book of the Catholic Church--never contradicts Catholic doctrine, which is the Word of God.
Which, though it may may you feel better, is a mere bare assertion, a soliloquy in lieu of an argument and ignores/avoids what i provided, as some of RC doctrine is indeed contrary to the evidence.

In addition, it is also not enough to hold that the Bible never contradicts Catholic doctrine, as what is needed is for you to say that Bible never fails to provide warrant for Catholic doctrine, which it certainly does.

For one example, and reiterating some of what i said already, the Holy Spirit constantly references Scripture, from the Lord defeating the devil at the beginning of His ministry, to defeating the religious leaders who opposed this itinerant Preacher during His ministry, to establishing His mission to His disciples toward the end of His time on earth.

And Scripture is what the gospel is based on, with its doctrine of salvation by grace thru faith, a faith that follows the Lord, and in which we find the basis for the morality the NT exhorts, and for its doctrines.

And in so providing the Lord provided approx. 200 prayers in Scripture to Heaven, all of which are directly addressed to the Lord - except by pagans. Paul for instance, said "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ " (Ephesians 3:14) - not "the Grandmother of our Lord Jesus Christ." Likewise in dying, Stephen cried, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit," (Acts 7:59) not an angel or ascended saint. And likewise in instruction on prayer, it is "Our Father who art in Heaven," not "Our Mother."

Moreover, only God is shown able to hear from Heaven all the prayers streaming up to Heaven. In contrast, no one in Heaven is made the object of such, and personal two-way communication btwn created beings from their respective realms required both to be conscious in the same realm.

See my previous post that substantiate this by God's grace, if you want to object.

Thus to ascribe a uniquely Divine attribute to created beings is blasphemous and contrary to what the Spirit reveals in Scripture, and has no real support. Caths are thus left resort to trying to extrapolate prayer to created beings in Heaven out of earthly relationships, but which does not have complete correspondence and Scripture does not provide what is needed to overcome the obstacle of the manifest restriction on prayer btwn the two realms and its object.

Mind you, prayer is such a basic fundamental practice that it is inconceivable that the Spirit would not record it in Scripture, and even in the OT they certainly could have prayed to angels in their needs, but did not.

In reality, both prayers to those who are physically dead and prayers for the dead are pure tradition, even being extraScriptural developments which the NT utterly fails to example or teach.
The Bible well supports the Word of God about the Immaculate Conception. The Papacy--established by Christ in the Apostle Rock-- is right to testify to the inspiration of Scripture and Tradition (together, the Word of God) and to the truth about the Mother of God

Actually, as said but ignored, while the Bible characteristically and often mentions the extraordinary aspects about even lesser subjects, both in the OT and NT, it nowhere teaches, despite RC extrapolative attempts, that Mary was sinless, while thrice (at least) teaching that of Christ.

Furthermore, the Bible supports there is no need for an Immaculate Conception, and certainly does not support it as being the wholly inspired word of God and a binding doctrine.

The reality is that God could have been born via Mary Magdalene, just as He could speak thru a donkey.
 
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patricius79

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There is no true Church. Not one in particular anyway. There is only the word of Christ and our faith. What do Catholics, or any other Church, have that i do not? Nothing that i can see, except maybe more religious stuff to worry about, stuff that the Lord never gave to us nor intended to. They can worship that way if they want, i wont stand in there way, not that anyone could anyway, but i worship God just as he instructed us, to the best of my ability. I know in my heart that God didn't really ask that much of us. What more do i need besides a bible, the spirit, and fellowship with other believers? Is there something more?

I don't experience the Church, which Christ founded on Rock (Matthew 16:18--hope that's the right verse)--as a burden. I find it to be a home, the heart of which is our Immaculate Mother, who brings us to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. A family needs a book. But it also needs more than a book. It needs to communicate the truth through real presence. She Who Believed helps us to understand the Scripture "I have much more to write you, but I want to do so not with pen and ink, but through talking face to face".
 
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patricius79

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Which, though it may may you feel better, is a mere bare assertion, a soliloquy in lieu of an argument and ignores/avoids what i provided, as some of RC doctrine is indeed contrary to the evidence.

In addition, it is also not enough to hold that the Bible never contradicts Catholic doctrine, as what is needed is for you to say that Bible never fails to provide warrant for Catholic doctrine, which it certainly does.
.

I think the Sacred Scriptures of the Catholic Church are one with the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. The Bible--like the Magisterium-- is part of Sacred Tradition, which is the Word of God.. Within the Church, the Holy Spirit and His Spouse, Our Lady, leads us to the truth about Mary, about Jesus, and about the Trinity.
 
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Extraneous

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I don't experience the Church, which Christ founded on Rock (Matthew 16:18--hope that's the right verse)--as a burden. I find it to be a home, the heart of which is our Immaculate Mother, who brings us to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. A family needs a book. But it also needs more than a book. It needs to communicate the truth through real presence. She Who Believed helps us to understand the Scripture "I have much more to write you, but I want to do so not with pen and ink, but through talking face to face".

Paul never mentions the Immaculate Mother.

The holy spirit is our helper, not Mary.

Jesus is the only name we pray in and are saved in, and God is the only one we pray to.

That's Paul's example and tradition, which the Catholic Church is NOT following. They don't follow Paul's tradition.

Why then do you think that they are following tradition? Who's tradition? Not the apostles tradition.
 
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BobRyan

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I don't think the Bible says that any Catholic teaching contradicts the Bible. In fact, the Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church, and not by itself.

Do you agree with the Bible that we should hold fast to the traditions as they were handed on, whether orally or by letter?

The Immaculate Conception is part of the Word of God, and as such I believe it.

1. The Immaculate Conception is mentioned nowhere in the entire Bible. I thought you knew that - since 155 posts and still not one text speaking about Mary's mother or any need for Mary to be born sinless like Christ.
2. The fact that you think the Bible fully supports all Catholic doctrine - is a good sign for a Catholic. I would not want to be a Catholic that believed that the Bible says Catholic doctrine is wrong - but I am Catholic "Anyway".

Ok so -- going with the first definition then.

"A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma."

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ addresses the point "teaching for DOCTRINE the commandments of men".


Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Jesus started a new tradition:

Luke 10:16
'Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

I would not lightly reject those sent by Jesus if I were you.

I think you will agree with me that these texts are very important.

"Though WE (Apostles) or an ANGEL from heaven preach to you a different gospel other than what you have already received - let him be accursed" Gal 1:6-9

2 Cor 11
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Do you agree with the Bible that we should hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter?

1. If they pass the sola scriptura test -- Christ's method in Mark 7:6-13
2. If they do not represent a false Gospel claimed to come from an Apostle or and Angel from heaven - as Paul warns in Gal 1:6-9
3. If they do not come from those who "Want to be regarded as Apostles" but are in fact teaching error - as Paul warns in 2 Cor 11 in the quote above.

When someone claims a doctrine is "in the Bible" it needs to be "in the Bible" because the Bible does not say "believe whatever things they make up" as we see in Col 2.

Col 2
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
 
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BobRyan

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I think the Sacred Scriptures of the Catholic Church are one with the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. The Bible--like the Magisterium-- is part of Sacred Tradition, which is the Word of God.. Within the Church, the Holy Spirit and His Spouse, Our Lady, leads us to the truth about Mary, about Jesus, and about the Trinity.

That is what we do not see Christ affirming in Mark 7:6-13

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ addresses the point "teaching for DOCTRINE the commandments of men".


Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Nobody in Scripture teaches the idea that Scripture stands alone. .

Actually the only transcendent substantive body of Truth that the Spirit of God affirms is wholly inspired of Him is that which is called Scripture. Certainly SS (sola scriptura, reasonably defined) does does not exclude helps to understand Scripture, and thus the church, teachers, and the magisterial office, etc. But as said, it is abundantly evidenced that as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

Which is sufficient in its formal and material aspects combined, and reveals and materially provides writings being recognized as being of God, and thus for a canon.
Scripture says to hold fast to the traditions just as they were given, whether orally or by letter.
Which, with its presuppositions, was much dealt with at length (and ignored) on the last page, and one of the problems is that this not only presumes that 2Thes. 2:15 is not simply referring to oral preaching of Scriptural truths, obedience to which a SS preacher may also enjoin, even of those who have no Bible, but with the veracity of which dependent upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power. Which is what the NT established its Truth claims by.

And while Rome does not presumes to be passing on new revelation, or speak under the manner of inspiration that Scripture enjoys, yet she (or RCs) presume that 2 Thes. 2:15 (and 1Co 11:2) refer to such things as the IM and Assumption of Mary, and not to what was or would be written in Scripture, which is abundantly affirmed to be the case with any revelation called "the word of God/the Lord."

Thus the answer to your question "do you agree with the Bible that we should hold fast to the traditions as they were handed on, whether orally or by letter" as being the word of God, is yes, since this very text comes from Scripture, and which is the assured word of God and we can expect would contain these orally preached Truths where those which would be, or already were, contained in Scripture.

But the problem your question is that it uses 2 Thes. 2:15 as carte blanche for Rome to decree what it wants to as being binding doctrine, and so that your question really is, "do you agree that we should hold fast to whatever traditions the RCC says were handed on, whether orally or by letter."

And which does not simply mean a set of doctrines that cannot be shown to be what Paul referred to or the like, but it also means whatever Rome comes up with in the future.

And (this is key for a RC) that the basis for the veracity of such is that of the novel premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, which is unseen and unnecessary in Scripture.

Consider the case of the Assumption, which was declared a binding doctrine approx. 1700 years after an event allegedly occurred, even though it is lacking in early testimony and was opposed by Rome's own scholars.
Ratzinger writes (emp. mine), Before Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven was defined, all theological faculties in the world were consulted for their opinion. Our teachers' answer was emphatically negative . What here became evident was the one-sidedness, not only of the historical, but of the historicist method in theology. "Tradition" was identified with what could be proved on the basis of texts. Altaner, the patrologist from Wurzburg¦had proven in a scientifically persuasive manner that the doctrine of Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven was unknown before the 5C; this doctrine, therefore, he argued, could not belong to the "apostolic tradition. And this was his conclusion, which my teachers at Munich shared.

...But if you conceive of "tradition" as the living process whereby the Holy Spirit introduces us to the fullness of truth and teaches us how to understand what previously we could still not grasp (cf. Jn 16:12-13) [meaning grasping extraScriptural fables to make them binding doctrines], then subsequent "remembering" (cf. Jn 16:4, for instance) can come to recognize what it has not caught sight of previously [meaning the needed evidence was absent] and was already handed down in the original Word." [via amorphous oral tradition] - J. Ratzinger, Milestones (Ignatius, n.d.), 58-59.
That is the living word of God. So our job is to find the true Church and hold fast to what she hands on to us, whether in writing or orally.
That is your very problem. The veracity of such traditions rests upon the tradition of of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, by which you are assured the Assumption is true, regardless of even the lack of warrant for it. Which is not how the NT church began, but it what cults operate under!

So I have to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter, because that's exactly what Scripture and the Church say. Otherwise I would not be following the Word of God.
That is absurd, as "the word of God" is not that which was established on the basis that the writings of Scripture were which the NT church appealed to, but "the word of God" is whatever Rome says it is, since she has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.
The Word of God teaches that Mary is the Immaculate New Eve
Rather, Rome says she is, and thus you must believe it, but the wholly inspired word of God does not teach the IM.
As Scripture says, she is named "Having-Been-Endowed-With-Grace" and "She Who Believed"
Which is not unique of Mary, nor does Scripture say she is "full of grace" which it says of the Lord Jesus. (Jn. 1:14)
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I think the Sacred Scriptures of the Catholic Church are one with the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. The Bible--like the Magisterium-- is part of Sacred Tradition, which is the Word of God.. Within the Church, the Holy Spirit and His Spouse, Our Lady, leads us to the truth about Mary, about Jesus, and about the Trinity.

Consistent with your cultic doctrine, in which whatever your church says is the word of God is to be held as such under the premise of her novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, you continue to sound like a devotee simply parroting official propaganda, to comfort yourself.
 
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patricius79

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Paul never mentions the Immaculate Mother.

The holy spirit is our helper, not Mary.

Jesus is the only name we pray in and are saved in, and God is the only one we pray to.

That's Paul's example and tradition, which the Catholic Church is NOT following. They don't follow Paul's tradition.

Why then do you think that they are following tradition? Who's tradition? Not the apostles tradition.

Mary conceived Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit, her Spouse. Spouses work together. In Luke 1:44 the Holy Spirit is given through the voice of His Spouse, our Lady. All graces are given from God the Father, through the Son (the One Mediator), and in the Holy Spirit and Mary. Yes, Jesus's Name is the one name by which we are saved, because He mediates between us and the Father. Also, She Who Believed (Luke 1:45) mediates between us and Jesus Christ, who is also God and is equal to the Father. Therefore, we have an Immaculate Mediatrix with Christ, in Mary, our spiritual Mother.
 
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BobRyan

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Mary conceived Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit, her Spouse. r.

Wrong.

The Holy Spirit is not the "Spouse of Mary" - - Nor is Mary ever said to be the "Mother of God" in the Bible.

The Catholic doctrine conflates "procreation" with "INCarnation" as IF the two are the same thing.

They are NOT!

The Bible authors never make that mistake.

Mary conceived Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit, her Spouse. Spouses work together. In Luke 1:44 the Holy Spirit is given through the voice of His Spouse, our Lady.

When you "quote you" your source agrees 'with you'.

Try quoting the Bible.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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We are never instructed to to hold fast to traditions or instructions which are outside of scripture. We are instructed to keep only the instructions of those who also wrote scripture. That's the context. We are also instructed by John to keep what was given in the beginning. He said that we need no teacher. In essance John is saying all we need is the scripture and the holy spirit.

If we study scripture instead of listening to teachers, we will see that what we are taught is so simple that nothing needs added to it.

With due regard for your rejection of the cultic Catholic doctrine, your argument is not sound. What you should say is that while we are to prove all teaching by Scripture, and have no need of teachers who presume a unique esoteric anointing to reveal secret coded truths, like the Gnostics John was evidently referring to, yet we have need of others, both writers of Scripture as well as those who have the gift of teaching, which it speaks of.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:11-13)

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Ephesians 4:14)


But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Ephesians 4:15-16)

But we are "not to think of men above that which is written," (1 Corinthians 4:6) as per Catholicism, but,

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good,". (1 Thessalonians 5:21) with a heart like the noble Bereans, and which faithful RCs are not to do in order to ascertain the veracity of official RC teaching.


It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors . - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.

Catholic doctrine, as authoritatively proposed by the Church, should be held as the supreme law... - Providentissimus Deus, (On the Study of Holy Scripture), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, dated November 18th, 1893.

“All that we do [as must be patent enough now] is to submit our judgment and conform our beliefs to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.” “Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God's Church on matters of faith and morals-----this is what all must give..” —“Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means",
 
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patricius79

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1. The Immaculate Conception is mentioned nowhere in the entire Bible. I thought you knew that - since 155 posts and still not one text speaking about Mary's mother or any need for Mary to be born sinless like Christ.
2. The fact that you think the Bible fully supports all Catholic doctrine - is a good sign for a Catholic. I would not want to be a Catholic that believed that the Bible says Catholic doctrine is wrong - but I am Catholic "Anyway".

Ok so -- going with the first definition then.

"A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma."

In Mark 7:6-13 Christ addresses the point "teaching for DOCTRINE the commandments of men".


Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Again, do you agree with Scripture that we should hold fast to the traditions as they were handed on, whether orally or by letter?

If I were to deny the Immaculate Conception I would indeed be laying aside the Word of God.
 
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Extraneous

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Mary conceived Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit, her Spouse. Spouses work together. In Luke 1:44 the Holy Spirit is given through the voice of His Spouse, our Lady. All graces are given from God the Father, through the Son (the One Mediator), and in the Holy Spirit and Mary. Yes, Jesus's Name is the one name by which we are saved, because He mediates between us and the Father. Also, She Who Believed (Luke 1:45) mediates between us and Jesus Christ, who is also God and is equal to the Father. Therefore, we have an Immaculate Mediatrix with Christ, in Mary, our spiritual Mother.

Yes, its written right there. Mary is Josephs wife, and if Mary is Gods Mother then Joseph must be his father...????
 
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Extraneous

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With due regard for your rejection of the cultic Catholic doctrine, your argument is not sound. What you should say is that while we are to prove all teaching by Scripture, and have no need of teachers who presume a unique esoteric anointing to reveal secret coded truths, like the Gnostics John was evidently referring to, yet we have need of others, both writers of Scripture as well as those who have the gift of teaching, which it speaks of.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:11-13)

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Ephesians 4:14)


But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Ephesians 4:15-16)

But we are "not to think of men above that which is written," (1 Corinthians 4:6) as per Catholicism, but,

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good,". (1 Thessalonians 5:21) with a heart like the noble Bereans, and which faithful RCs are not to do in order to ascertain the veracity of official RC teaching.


It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors . - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.

Catholic doctrine, as authoritatively proposed by the Church, should be held as the supreme law... - Providentissimus Deus, (On the Study of Holy Scripture), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, dated November 18th, 1893.

“All that we do [as must be patent enough now] is to submit our judgment and conform our beliefs to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.” “Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God's Church on matters of faith and morals-----this is what all must give..” —“Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means",


All teachers are for is preaching the word. The word teaches us. The word is both scripture and spirit. WE dont need that anymore however, because we can read scripture ourselves and hear the word, without the need of a teacher. What did paul tell Timothy? To commit himself to public reading of scripture. 1 Timothy 4:13

I believe we can help each other, and its good to share our biblical knowledge, and grow together, but to follow a teacher is folly in these last days.
 
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Extraneous

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Tell me what teacher i should follow. Which denomination?

Will you say that i must figure it out on my own? I would say that i have. I choose the Lord to be my instructor. I cannot follow men who cant even agree among themselves. And i wont choose between them either. They are all fallible.
 
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Extraneous

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Does anyone see a pattern here? Sure the apostles we sent just as paul said in Corinthians, but he was referring to the apostles who came before they gave us scripture. If it were not true then explain the pattern i see in these scriptures.


John 14:3 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. 25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.


1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.


Matthew 23:8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven
 
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