The Marriage Debate

William67 said:

If a "born again virgin" is calling himself/herself a virgin, he/she is a liar. Youre joking right?

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He's not a virgin in the literal sense, yet he's saying that he's a virgin. Doesn't that match what you were saying? I assumed you meant "No man would say he's a virgin if he's had sex before." That would be a false statement. There are men who would do that.

William67 said:

The few homosexuals I have met were extremely proud of how many partners they had.

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Good for you. I don't care about anecdotal evidence. A 15-year-old who had sex with his boyfriend but knows that he'll get beaten if his dad finds out is going to deny it. A non-gender conforming man who is getting harassed on the street will likely deny sexual encounters with men if asked.

There are cases where people will say that they have never had sex in order to keep themselves safe.

William67 said:

You must not be from the deep south. Even suggesting that a woman may have an STD is tantamount to calling her a harlot.

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Lol I would never live in the South. That attitude isn't surprising, considering the quality of the sex ed. that they receive...

William67 said:

Her mothers excuse was that she didn't want her daughters past to have an impact on her future. She said nothing until after I had found out what her daughter was.

I understand that youre in Florida, but these days Florida has about as much in common culturally with the rest of the South as the People's Republic of China. No, it turned me off of lying harlots.

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Florida??? What the heck does Florida have to do with anything? I am missing your point unless you think I live in Florida?....Florida is actually one of the states I have never set foot in. My Southern roots are in Texas...

I don't know where you get your "most people" statements. Most women I know don't want to have a string of sexual relationships. They want one man who steps up to the plate and marries them and treats them right....and loves them forever. The problem is that we live in a "here and now" culture and people actually believe that four months is a "long relationship" and they start making poor judgement calls based on the idea that plan on being together "forever" so why wait? We don't teach our young people how to wait for anything anymore.

I am wondering if the "most people" statements are gotten from watching tv shows and not real life...If your experiences really are "real life", then I suggest that you expand your circle and make a few new friends.

Cearbhall said:

Lol I would never live in the South. That attitude isn't surprising, considering the quality of the sex ed. that they receive...

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WHAT??? this statement is based on what? How many hours did you sit through sex ed in a Southern classroom to have any idea of what they teach?

William67 said:

Yeah, I was engaged once, more than 12 years ago. She repeatedly said she was a virgin. She said that right up until the moment I found out she was still sleeping with her ex-boyfriend. When her mother found out that I had called off the wedding and dumped her, she called me. It was then that I found out that not only was she still sleeping with her ex, but when she was 20 she had moved in an lived with a guy for 3 years. That's wife material right there. A liar with the morals of an alley cat. Yep. Definitely wife material.

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The lying is awful and I'm sorry you went through this. But is cohabitation really still frowned upon to such an extreme in some places in the U.S.? Even my conservative Catholic family members don't mind. All of the individuals in my generation who have gotten married were already living together. They're all upstanding individuals with successful careers.

we are all alley cats.

William67 said:

In most places in the South, except for urban areas, "shacking up" is still a big no-no. Most of the people I know of who have shacked up were transplanted northerners or from urban areas.

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Interesting. I mean, I have absolutely no problem with someone saying that he or she would never do it personally, but that's quite a different story than acting like it makes a person into a harlot/heathen or someone who's not worth socializing with.

William67 said:

Its social shaming. No different than when someone disagrees with liberal/progressive policies and are "attacked".

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Ok? Yes, that would be another example of the same thing. It's just as illogical.

William67 said:

Shack up with someone, people call them immoral. Disagree with Obama's ideology, get called a racist. Both sides of any issue do it.

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Ok...doesn't change what I said. I'm not a fan of any judgment that isn't based on facts, nor any course of action that isn't constructive. Social shaming is bonkers.

Cearbhall said:

Even my conservative Catholic family members don't mind.

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sounds like you and I have a different understanding of what "conservative" is
someone who does not hold to sound teachings on sexual morality do not sound very conservative (or Catholic for that matter)

Rhamiel said:

sounds like you and I have a different understanding of what "conservative" is

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Alright, maybe saying that they "don't mind" was putting it the wrong way. What I meant was that you wouldn't know that they mind. They know how to mind their own business, and they know that cohabitation isn't inherently a reckless lifestyle that's going to end with a single mother in a homeless shelter or a prison. They're rational and respectful, and I think conservatives are perfectly capable of possessing these traits.

Rhamiel said:

someone who does not hold to sound teachings on sexual morality do not sound very conservative (or Catholic for that matter)

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They do think it's wrong (as far as I know). But that doesn't mean they expect everyone else to live according to their own beliefs. They don't shun people (especially their own children/nieces/nephews) or think that their moral system is the only way to live.

William67 said:

In most places in the South, except for urban areas, "shacking up" is still a big no-no. Most of the people I know of who have shacked up were transplanted northerners or from urban areas.

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The people you know of must all be older because there is plenty of "shacking up" in the South too....in country towns and even among our generation. And although I don't agree with it, I don't know that it is worse than people who get married only for the purpose of appearances and then end up divorced. I don't think your mother was better off for having gotten married as a virgin to a virgin too young (so her mother didn't have to worry about being shamed) to a man who wasn't man enough to be a good husband. I suspect that her first experiences with sex were such that she had zero desire to be with a man again. I find it kind of ironic that you use her as an example of why being a virgin on your wedding day is a good thing and holy thing. She was either evil for leaving him...or the marriage was doomed from the start because it wasn't based on anything real or important.

blackribbon said:

I suspect that her first experiences with sex were such that she had zero desire to be with a man again. I find it kind of ironic that you use her as an example of why being a virgin on your wedding day is a good thing and holy thing.

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I don't think we can speak for her specifically, but yep, that's the history of women.

I'm so grateful to live in the 21st century in a developed country. I can't imagine being a financially dependent teenager with limited social rights and little knowledge of sex who experiences her wedding night with a man who was taught he has a God-given right to use my body for his pleasure. Even today, some young women think that they're supposed to bleed a lot and experience significant pain their first time, because that's the legacy.

Rhamiel said:

sounds like you and I have a different understanding of what "conservative" is
someone who does not hold to sound teachings on sexual morality do not sound very conservative (or Catholic for that matter)

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fine example of social shaming.

redblue22 said:

fine example of social shaming.

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I just find her example of "conservative Catholics" to be kind of odd
showing no concern for the immortal soul of their own kinsfolk?
(sorry is the term kinsfolk too anachronistic, I was thinking of "relatives" but that word is almost turned into a sit-com cliché, now I am rambling)

anyways
a conservative Catholic would understand that serious sin puts a soul in danger of eternal damnation

if you commit a serious sin with full freedom and full knowledge that it is a sin then it is a mortal sin
committing a mortal sin means you are cutting yourself out of being in a state of grace
if you die outside of being in a state of grace then you go to hell

I am not really asking if you agree or disagree with this, since you are not Catholic I doubt you hold to many teachings that are particular to the Catholic Church

lack of concern for people who are putting their soul in serious jeopardy is not a sign of love
it is like watching a drug addict waste away and not trying to help them at all "oh I did not want them to feel shamed so I let them get emaciated and OD"

I think it was an odd way to show your concern. Thank you for explaining.