The snare of devotion to Mary.

patricius79 · Feb 12, 2016

bbbbbbb said:
I find the use of the fish symbol to be more useful as it conveys a wider range of meanings and was a very popular icon of the early church.

So I think that using the fish icon does not constitute worshiping a fish. Likewise when I contact the Created Daughter of God the Father, Mary, through icons, I am not worshiping the icon or Mary. I am receiving her help in worshiping the God-man, Jesus Christ.

patricius79 · Feb 12, 2016

Arsenios said:
Nice post, thanks...

The sad fact is that Reformational faith has pretty much devolved into theological ideas...
Eastern Orthodox Catholics hold Her as our Treasury of Intercession to Christ...
Through Her we enter into Christ in Baptism, because She is the Woman persecuted by the Beast in Revelation, the Apostolic Church, the Body of Christ, Who IS the One doing the Baptism which Births us INTO Christ...
Simple Orthodox Faithful, children and adults and monastics and old men and women, seek and receive Her Intercession for helps... She is our Mother as well as Christ's, for we are IN Christ, in His Body as Members...

Indeed She is the New Eve, and as She is recorded saying in Holy Writ:

"Behold! All generations will be calling me Blessed!"

Calling Her Blessed is an essential part of our Worship of God every day...

Yes. Pope John Paul II talks in his encyclical "Mother of the Redeemer" about how the recognition by the Catholic Church and by the Eastern Christians of Mary as our Mother should be the basis of our sense of unity with one another.

Albion · Feb 12, 2016

patricius79 said:
So I think that using the fish icon does not constitute worshiping a fish. .

Who does? Is this an issue with anyone?

Likewise when I contact the Created Daughter of God the Father, Mary, through icons, I am not worshiping the icon or Mary. I am receiving her help in worshiping the God-man, Jesus Christ.

There's no "likewise" about it. No one worships the fish emblem. There is reason to conclude that millions do engage in acts of worship towards Mary and religious icons, however.

patricius79 · Feb 12, 2016

Albion said:
Who does? Is this an issue with anyone?

There's no "likewise" about it. No one worships the fish emblem. There is reason to conclude that millions do engage in acts of worship towards Mary and religious icons, however.

I don't think that Catholics worship the created Daughter of God. It seems to me that they don't honor her nearly enough, since she conceived our Savior and God. If icons of a fish are acceptable--and they are--then certainly icons of Our Lady are very pleasing to her Son.

Albion · Feb 13, 2016

patricius79 said:
I don't think that Catholics worship the created Daughter of God.

I know that you don't think they do. You won't even listen to a reasoned discussion of the matter.

Arsenios · Feb 13, 2016

Albion said:
I know that you don't think they do. You won't even listen to a reasoned discussion of the matter.

Albion, have you REALLY AND TRULY posted over 62,000 times on this forum???

I am gobsmacked at the very possibility that you even MIGHT have done so...

Has this forum been around for, say, 50 years or so???

Are you out of the UK? Afrika?

Surely you are not a Colonialist??

Arsenios - The Awe-Struck!

patricius79 · Feb 13, 2016

Albion said:
I know that you don't think they do. You won't even listen to a reasoned discussion of the matter.

If one does not honor Mary, the highest of all God's creatures, then their worship of God is crippled.

Devotion to Mary is intrinsic to Christian worship.

Since Mary is the Created Daughter of God the Father, the Mother of God the Son, and the Spouse of God the Holy Spirit, honoring her is connected to the worship of God.

But that does not make it worship of her. The Arians believed that Christ was the highest of all creatures, and they said more about Jesus than Catholics say about Mary. But that didn't mean the Arians worshipped Jesus Christ. They didn't worship Him because they didn't recognize Him as God.

The Church of Christ does not recognize Mary as God. Rather she is a creature. But we do recognize her Divine Son as God.

I love Mary, and through her I find Jesus Christ, our God.

Albion · Feb 13, 2016

patricius79 said:
If one does not honor Mary, the highest of all God's creatures, then their worship of God is crippled.

"People say the darndest things."

patricius79 · Feb 13, 2016

Albion said:
"People say the darndest things."

From my perspective, I think sometimes people are unable to provide substantive responses to evidence that is presented by others.

Albion · Feb 13, 2016

patricius79 said:
From my perspective, I think sometimes people are unable to provide substantive responses to evidence that is presented by others.

Don't feel bad. You're not the only one who gives testimonials instead of answers.

patricius79 · Feb 13, 2016

Albion said:
Don't feel bad. You're not the only one who gives testimonials instead of answers.

I wonder how you know the difference. I think we should testify to the light of the Word of God.

According to God's Word, devotion to Having-Been-Endowed-With-Grace (Our Queen) is necessary for worshiping God and being saved.

I don't think the Arians worshipped Christ, even though they said more about Him than Catholics say about She Who Believed.

Do you think that the Arians worshipped Christ, merely by the fact of honoring Him as the highest of all creatures?

I realize that people may not want to address that since its implications support Christ's Church.

It doesn't honor God to suggest that honoring His Mother detracts from Him.

I perceive that sometimes people seem to not even want to say that Jesus is God, because of the implication of this in regard to Our Lady.

Extraneous · Feb 13, 2016

patricius79 said:
If one does not honor Mary, the highest of all God's creatures, then their worship of God is crippled.

Devotion to Mary is intrinsic to Christian worship.

I dont find anything in scripture which would lead me to think this is true. To the contrary, scripture would lead me away from such things, in my opinion.

Think hard about what you are saying.

Albion · Feb 13, 2016

Extraneous said:
I dont find anything in scripture which would lead me to think this is true.

Ah, so you're saying that you'd be guided by Scripture when deciding what doctrines to believe. Veeerrrry interesting. :idea:

Extraneous · Feb 13, 2016

Albion said:
Ah, so you're saying that you'd be guided by Scripture when deciding what doctrines to believe. Veeerrrry interesting.

Yes, i trust nothing else

Aldebaran · Feb 13, 2016

patricius79 said:
I don't think that Catholics worship the created Daughter of God..

Now she's the daughter of God? In the past, you said she was the mother of God? Has Catholic oral tradition suddenly changed again? That's what happens when we put oral traditions over the written word.

patricius79 · Feb 13, 2016

Extraneous said:
I dont find anything in scripture which would lead me to think this is true. To the contrary, scripture would lead me away from such things, in my opinion.

Think hard about what you are saying.

I try to. The Word of God includes both the written Word and the oral Word, as the Bible--which itself is part of Catholic Tradition, the Catholic Church having compiled it--indicates. Now, if someone through no fault of their own does not have an explicit devotion to the creature called Blessed Virgin (She Who Believed), then that is one thing. God meets us where we are at and understands our limitations. But for those who know the truth about devotion to Jesus Christ, our God, through His Mother, and still choose to neglect devotion to her... that is a terrible thing which is, to some extent at least, a rejection of God. But Our Lord is always ready to take us back through Our Lady, His Mom.

Extraneous · Feb 13, 2016

patricius79 said:
I try to. The Word of God includes both the written Word and the oral Word, as the Bible--which itself is part of Catholic Tradition, the Catholic Church having compiled it--indicates. Now, if someone through no fault of their own does not have an explicit devotion to the creature called Blessed Virgin (She Who Believed), then that is one thing. God meets us where we are at and understands our limitations. But for those who know the truth about devotion to Jesus Christ, our God, through His Mother, and still choose to neglect devotion to her... that is a terrible thing which is, to some extent at least, a rejection of God. But Our Lord is always ready to take us back through Our Lady, His Mom.

The Catholic Church did not write the bible. Its simply a collection of writings that were written before the Catholic Church even existed. The pharisees and scribes whom the Lord rebuked many times, they also collected scripture but i wouldn't follow their doctrine because they couldn't understand the scriptures. Its the same way with the catholic Church, in my opinion, if they understood the scriptures they would not be preaching about Mariology.

Furthermore, i have heard it said by a well known Lutheran member, that the genealogy of Christ is not to be taken literally. He once told me that the origins of mankind agree with the theory of evolution. I told him that such a theory would in fact discredit the genealogy of Christ, and he responded by saying that Jesus genealogy is not literal in translation.

If however he is correct then Mary is not even a real person, but simply some character in a fake genealogy of Christ

I myself reject the evolution theory as flawed. I also reject my Lutheran brothers assertions. This however still doesn't mean i will see any value in Mariology

patricius79 · Feb 13, 2016

Extraneous said:
The Catholic Church did not write the bible. Its simply a collection of writings that were written before the Catholic Church even existed. The pharisees and scribes whom the Lord rebuked many times, they also collected scripture but i wouldn't follow their doctrine because they couldn't understand the scriptures. Its the same way with the catholic Church, in my opinion, if they understood the scriptures they would not be preaching about Mariology.

Furthermore, i have heard it said by a well known Lutheran member, that the genealogy of Christ is not to be taken literally. He once told me that the origins of mankind agree with the theory of evolution. I told him that such a theory would in fact discredit the genealogy of Christ, and he responded by saying that Jesus genealogy is not literal in translation.

If however he is correct then Mary is not even a real person, but simply some character in a fake genealogy of Christ

I myself reject the evolution theory as flawed. I also reject my Lutheran brothers assertions. This however still doesn't mean i will see any value in Mariology

We have very different beliefs and perspectives, as I believe that the Catholic Church is the one Church founded by Mary's Son, our God, as the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

Extraneous · Feb 13, 2016

patricius79 said:
We have very different beliefs and perspectives, as I believe that the Catholic Church is the one Church founded by Mary's Son, our God, as the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

I know you believe that. What does the bible say though? Where is the Catholic Church in Scripture? It mentions a universal Church only. What makes your church that Church? It bears the name but is that evidence? The Church of Christ (COC) must be the "one true" Church, because it does have the Lords name on its sign outside. Does that make sense?

Arsenios · Feb 13, 2016

Extraneous said:
Yes, i trust nothing else (than Scripture)

Trusting God is a good thing...

Abraham did...
We do not find Scripture recording that he trusted Scripture...
Don't you agree?

Arsenios

The snare of devotion to Mary.

Called to Jesus Through Mary

Called to Jesus Through Mary

Facilitator

Called to Jesus Through Mary

Facilitator

Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery,

Called to Jesus Through Mary

Facilitator

Called to Jesus Through Mary

Facilitator

Called to Jesus Through Mary

Well-Known Member

Facilitator

Well-Known Member

NCC-1701-A

Called to Jesus Through Mary

Well-Known Member

Called to Jesus Through Mary

Well-Known Member

Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery,

Similar threads