Jews 4 Jesus criticize Vatican

613jono

Active Member
Jan 6, 2016
96
62
55
Texas
✟8,053.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
In that case one could say it was in Egyptian or whatever, but the current evidence points to it being Greek. You might use the DSS as evidence? The Peshitta? I find it strange that there are NO NT manuscripts in Aramaic or Hebrew. If all the originals were in Aramaic/Hebrew and not Greek, where did they all go? They should be all over the place, no? The earliest is 1st century Mark I believe, although some say the first book written was probably 1 Thessalonians, written around 50 AD.


This is evidence of the semitic origins of the so-called "NT". There are no "original manuscripts" available(which is the point of our disagreement).

Contained with in the Greek text of the New Testament are many Hebrew words and phrases that have been transliterated from the Hebrew language into the Greek language. While many of these have been described as being "Aramaic," there is no textual evidence to suggest that these are Aramaic rather than Hebrew.

In the book of Matthew (27:46) is the phrase "Eli eli lema sabachthani" (eli eli lama sabachtani). This is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew "אלי אלי למה שבקתני" (eli eli lama shabaqtani) meaning "my God my God why have you left me."

Below are additional Hebrew words found in the Greek New Testament.

nt_origins.gif
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Truthfrees
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,444
3,769
Eretz
✟317,023.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
This is evidence of the semitic origins of the so-called "NT". There are no "original manuscripts" available(which is the point of our disagreement).

Contained with in the Greek text of the New Testament are many Hebrew words and phrases that have been transliterated from the Hebrew language into the Greek language. While many of these have been described as being "Aramaic," there is no textual evidence to suggest that these are Aramaic rather than Hebrew.

In the book of Matthew (27:46) is the phrase "Eli eli lema sabachthani" (eli eli lama sabachtani). This is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew "אלי אלי למה שבקתני" (eli eli lama shabaqtani) meaning "my God my God why have you left me."

Below are additional Hebrew words found in the Greek New Testament.

nt_origins.gif
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,444
3,769
Eretz
✟317,023.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private

I guess this site was hiccupping again. Anyway, sure there would be semitic phrases, almost ALL the writers were Jewish! However, there is no evidence that they wrote the NT in anything other than Greek originally, even to early believers who were Jews in the Empire. Eli is in the original Hebrew text for Psalm 22:1, and may have been used because Elohi could not be written in Greek. Elohi/Eloi is found in the Septuagint as the original words also, not in Greek. It could also be said "Eli, Eli, lama Azabthani". The same with "lema" and "lama", Hebrew vs Aramaic roots. Sabakhthani is also Aramaic in origin but may have been in common usage in Hebrew (as in the word Shabakh) during that time. Shabakhta is "you forsook" and ni is "me". So the authors, writing in Greek, used original text either to make a point from the OT and/or because it could not be written correctly to be understood correctly in Greek.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SteveCaruso

Translator
May 17, 2010
812
555
✟54,511.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
For the record: "Sabakhthani" "talitha" "cephas" "Golgotha" and many other words are certainly Aramaic, not Hebrew. There are also a number of wordplays underlying the Greek that do not work in Hebrrw. At the time, Hebrew was not a spoken-at-home language -- otherwise Bar Kochba wouldn't have had to revive it as such 100 years later, nor would his earliest letters have been in Aramaic. Even The early Church Fathers understood "Hebrew" as "Aramaic written in Hebrew letters" (ie Jewish [Galilean and Judean] as opposed to pagan Aramaic -- what was spoken in Edessa or Nabatea).

(Please excuse minor errors. I'm on my mobile device. :) )
 
Upvote 0

613jono

Active Member
Jan 6, 2016
96
62
55
Texas
✟8,053.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
For the record: "Sabakhthani" "talitha" "cephas" "Golgotha" and many other words are certainly Aramaic, not Hebrew. There are also a number of wordplays underlying the Greek that do not work in Hebrrw. At the time, Hebrew was not a spoken-at-home language -- otherwise Bar Kochba wouldn't have had to revive it as such 100 years later, nor would his earliest letters have been in Aramaic. Even The early Church Fathers understood "Hebrew" as "Aramaic written in Hebrew letters" (ie Jewish [Galilean and Judean] as opposed to pagan Aramaic -- what was spoken in



(Please excuse minor errors. I'm on my mobile device. :) )

Sorry, see below post.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

613jono

Active Member
Jan 6, 2016
96
62
55
Texas
✟8,053.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Although the survival of Hebrew as a spoken language until the Byzantine Period is well-known among Hebrew linguists, there remains a lag in awareness among some historians who do not necessarily keep up-to-speed with linguistic research and rely on outdated scholarship. Nevertheless, the vigor of Hebrew is slowly but surely making its way through the academic literature. The Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls distinguishes the Dead Sea Scroll Hebrew from the various dialects of Biblical Hebrew it evolved out of, "This book presents the specific features of DSS Hebrew, emphasizing deviations from classical BH."[1] The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church that once said in 1958 in its first edition, Hebrew "ceased to be a spoken language around the fourth century BC", now says in 1997 in its third edition, Hebrew "continued to be used as a spoken and written language in the New Testament period".[2] An Introductory Grammar of Rabbinic Hebrew says, "It is generally believed that the Dead Sea Scrolls, specifically the Copper Scroll and also the Bar Kokhba letters, have furnished clear evidence of the popular character of MH [Mishnaic Hebrew]."[3] And so on. Israeli scholars now tend to take it for granted that Hebrew as a spoken language is a feature of Israel's Roman Period.

For many years it has been taught that Greek and Aramaic were the languages of Israel during the Second Temple period. However, over the past fifty years more and more evidence has surfaced that the language of the Jews in Israel during this time was in fact Hebrew. Below are some of discoveries supporting this theory.

In 135 CE Shimon Ben Kosiba (Simon Bar Kockba) lead the final revolt against the Romans. The image below is a fragment of a parchment which begins, "From Shimon Ben Kosiba to Yeshua Ben Galgoula and to the men of the fort, peace..." This is a letter from Shimon himself to one of his leaders in the revolt and it is written in Hebrew.

nt_1.gif

All coins minted in Israel during the second Temple period include inscriptions written in Hebrew. The coin on the left is written in the late Semitic script bearing the inscription "yerushalem" (Jerusalem). The coin on the right is written in the middle (paleo) Hebrew script with the word "sh'ma" (hear).

nt_2.gif
nt_3.gif

The many scrolls and thousands of fragments uncovered in the Dead Sea Caves were written from between 100 CE and 70AD. Some of these scrolls and fragments are of Biblical book but others are secular works concerning day to day business. Of all of these scrolls and fragments, approximately 90% are written in Hebrew while only 5% are in Aramaic and 5% in Greek. While most of the Hebrew inscriptions use the late Hebrew script, some of them use the more ancient early (paleo) script such as the image below which is a portion of the book of Leviticus.

nt_4.gif



The book of Maccabees, one of the books of the Apocrypha, tells the story of the Jewish Revolt about 150 years before the time of the New Testament. The Greeks, lead by Antichus Epiphinus, conquiered the land of Israel and forced the Jews to leave their national heritage and the Torah and begin following the Greek culture. Because of the Jews hatred for all things Hellenistic, including the culture and language, Judas Maccabee lead the revolt against Antichus Epiphinus destroying the Greeks and slaughtering those Jews that had adopted the Greek language and culture. This revolt demonstrates the Jewish hatred of the hellistic culture and the incorrect assumption that the Jews freely adopted the Greek language during the time of the New Testament.

Josephus was a first century Jewish historian who recorded Jewish life and sentiment during the time of the New Testament. In his work Antiquity of the Jews he writes "I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understanding the elements of the Greek language although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own language, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness: for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations". (Josephus, Ant.20.11.2)

Taken from Mark Benners AHRC.
 
Upvote 0

613jono

Active Member
Jan 6, 2016
96
62
55
Texas
✟8,053.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
I guess this site was hiccupping again. Anyway, sure there would be semitic phrases, almost ALL the writers were Jewish! However, there is no evidence that they wrote the NT in anything other than Greek originally, even to early believers who were Jews in the Empire. Eli is in the original Hebrew text for Psalm 22:1, and may have been used because Elohi could not be written in Greek. Elohi/Eloi is found in the Septuagint as the original words also, not in Greek. It could also be said "Eli, Eli, lama Azabthani". The same with "lema" and "lama", Hebrew vs Aramaic roots. Sabakhthani is also Aramaic in origin but may have been in common usage in Hebrew (as in the word Shabakh) during that time. Shabakhta is "you forsook" and ni is "me". So the authors, writing in Greek, used original text either to make a point from the OT and/or because it could not be written correctly to be understood correctly in Greek.


Exactly! Jewish writers. I think it more logical to assume translitered words would come from a Hebrew word source or a Hebrew original.
 
Upvote 0

SteveCaruso

Translator
May 17, 2010
812
555
✟54,511.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Aye and this lengthy cut and paste from Benners is not a reliable source and is full of convenient ambiguities. :)

Just a few points:

Most Israeli linguists (and Semitic linguists in general) do not believe that Hebrew was a spoken language in the 1st century outside of the synagogue in academic context. It's a minority opinion that do and it's a minority opinion that has not been well received.

The Hebrew of the DSS is littered with Aramaic spellings and other evidences that show that the scribes' first language was not Hebrew, but Eastern (that is to say Judean) Aramaic. They were fond of things like writing ending a-class vowels with alef instead of he, revised a number of passages with contemporary Aramaic idiom, etc.

Every one of Bark Kochba's earliest letters were exclusively in Aramaic. He is responsible for Hebrew's *revival* as a symbol of nationalism.

Paleo Hebrew is used on coins from the time period much like Latin ("e pluribus unum") and Blackletter ("old english script" -- well it's not) is used on our modern currency.

That part of the Book of Leviticus is written in Herodian bookhand, which was popular in the first centuries BC/AD. This was the handwriting contemporary to Jesus, and what has been found throughout Galilee used to write Galilean Aramaic inscriptions from the first century through the Byzantine Period.

Maccabees is a red herring. It has no bearing on this discussion.

And that passage of Josephus is perhaps the most misquoted and taken-out-of-context passages from his entire written works. If you read the entire passage, he mentions that Greek learning was found all over the place among Jews, especially in the diaspora, and he was patting himself on the back for undertaking a task which was seen as below his station in Jewish and Roman society. The very next line reads, "because they look upon this accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free men, but as many of the servants as please learn them."


Jesus and his earliest Disciples -- being raised in Galilee -- spoke Galilean Aramaic. Where it's an obscure dialect, we have surviving examples of this language from Rabbinic writings and inscriptions in Galilee itself. They did not speak Hebrew that had been dead as a day-to-day language for nearly ten generations before them, nor Hebrew that had been revived eight generations after them.
 
Upvote 0

613jono

Active Member
Jan 6, 2016
96
62
55
Texas
✟8,053.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Aye and this lengthy cut and paste from Benners is not a reliable source and is full of convenient ambiguities. :)

Just a few points:

Most Israeli linguists (and Semitic linguists in general) do not believe that Hebrew was a spoken language in the 1st century outside of the synagogue in academic context. It's a minority opinion that do and it's a minority opinion that has not been well received.

The Hebrew of the DSS is littered with Aramaic spellings and other evidences that show that the scribes' first language was not Hebrew, but Eastern (that is to say Judean) Aramaic. They were fond of things like writing ending a-class vowels with alef instead of he, revised a number of passages with contemporary Aramaic idiom, etc.

Every one of Bark Kochba's earliest letters were exclusively in Aramaic. He is responsible for Hebrew's *revival* as a symbol of nationalism.

Paleo Hebrew is used on coins from the time period much like Latin ("e pluribus unum") and Blackletter ("old english script" -- well it's not) is used on our modern currency.

That part of the Book of Leviticus is written in Herodian bookhand, which was popular in the first centuries BC/AD. This was the handwriting contemporary to Jesus, and what has been found throughout Galilee used to write Galilean Aramaic inscriptions from the first century through the Byzantine Period.

Maccabees is a red herring. It has no bearing on this discussion.

And that passage of Josephus is perhaps the most misquoted and taken-out-of-context passages from his entire written works. If you read the entire passage, he mentions that Greek learning was found all over the place among Jews, especially in the diaspora, and he was patting himself on the back for undertaking a task which was seen as below his station in Jewish and Roman society. The very next line reads, "because they look upon this accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free men, but as many of the servants as please learn them."


Jesus and his earliest Disciples -- being raised in Galilee -- spoke Galilean Aramaic. Where it's an obscure dialect, we have surviving examples of this language from Rabbinic writings and inscriptions in Galilee itself. They did not speak Hebrew that had been dead as a day-to-day language for nearly ten generations before them, nor Hebrew that had been revived eight generations after them.


Yes, i refrenced the Benner material and web site (at bottom of post).

Our disagreement is not over it being written in Hebrew per-se, but from a semitic origin. The poimt of disagreement is the statement "it is a fact" that the "NT" is written originally in greek (already disproved the statement).

opinions differ based on assumptions. Facts however are indesputable.
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,444
3,769
Eretz
✟317,023.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Exactly! Jewish writers. I think it more logical to assume translitered words would come from a Hebrew word source or a Hebrew original.

They were not transliterated words. It was in Greek with certain phrases said in Aramaic.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,917
8,033
✟572,538.44
Faith
Messianic
I think this is an important point..

Most Israeli linguists (and Semitic linguists in general) do not believe that Hebrew was a spoken language in the 1st century outside of the synagogue in academic context. ....quoting SteveCarusoTranslator
 
Upvote 0

Hoshiyya

Spenglerian
Mar 5, 2013
5,285
1,022
✟24,676.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
  • Agree
Reactions: visionary
Upvote 0