- May 28, 2015
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Maybe the end is closer than we think.....
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For many years I have struggled to understand the doctrine of the trinity. To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity. We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Sophia / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.
That sounds almost like an oxymoron......An atheist heading a Christian Church.....
I agree. The Jewish early disciples preserved the NT writings as well as the OT Scripture. Many of the so-called "church fathers" were influenced by pagan thought.
How many versions are there of the Trinity?
"So likewise the Father is Almighty: the Son Almighty: and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties: but one Almighty. So the Father is God: the Son is God: and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods: but one God."
I agree. The Jewish early disciples preserved the NT writings as well as the OT Scripture. Many of the so-called "church fathers" were influenced by pagan thought.
For many years I have struggled to understand the doctrine of the trinity. To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona".
This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus.
In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity.
We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Sophia / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.
Welcome to post-"Reformed" Protestantism.
Slight correction. Welcome to post modern "anythingism."
And yes trying to nail down the theological basis for the post modern views is akin to giving a cat a bath.
My cat never liked baths.
Um. This sounds wrong to me. As I understand it they are the same person.He is God but He is not The Father
Um. This sounds wrong to me. As I understand it they are the same person.
Numbers 20:16 NLT
“But when we cried out to YAH, he heard us and sent an angel who brought us out of Egypt. Now we are camped at Kadesh, a town on the border of your land.”
Exodus 13:21-22 NIV
“By day YAH went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people.”
Genesis 16:7-8 NIV
“The angel of YAH found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. And he said, “Hagar, slave of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?” “I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered.”
Genesis 16:13 NLT
“Thereafter, Hagar used another name to refer to YAH, who had spoken to her. She said, “You are the God who sees me.” She also said, “Have I truly seen the One who sees me?”
Judges 13:20-22 NIV
“As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of YAH ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. When the angel of YAH did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of YAH. “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!””
This "man" has a pretty high ranking. Joshua seems to understand who this is. This is clearly the Angel/Messenger that spoke to MosesJoshua 5:13-15 NIV
“Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?” “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of YAH I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Master have for his servant?” The commander of the army of YAH replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.”
Numbers 22:31 NLT
“Then YAH opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of YAH standing in the roadway with a drawn sword in his hand. Balaam bowed his head and fell face down on the ground before him”
Genesis 32:29-30 NIV
“Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.” Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.” But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
Judges 13:17-18 NIV
“Then Manoah inquired of the angel of YAH. “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?” He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.”
Revelation 19:12 NLT
“His eyes were like flames of fire, and on his head were many crowns. A name was written on him that no one understood except himself.”
Hosea 12:3-4 NIV
“In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel; as a man he struggled with God. He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there—”
The mods or admin folks can change your religion/Faith label
Prosopon means more than mask; it can mean mask or face, but it also has the sense of person. So whereas it is wrong to translate prosopon as "discrete individual human" it is also wrong to render it "mask."
Here, I get the impression you are going beyond Sabellianism in order to adopt a Unitarian rejection of the deity of our Lord. Certainly our Lord is not a "glimpse of God."
The word Trinity is of Latin origin, having originated with Tertullian; it furthermore was acceoted by all orthodox Christians of the fourth century: Latins, Greeks, Syriacs, Copts, Celts, Ethiopians, Armenians, Georgians, Indians...
This is why some of us trust the Hebrew and Greek languages of the Jews and not the Latin of Rome. When scripture was translated from Greek into Latin (Vulgate) and then into English, much was lost in the translation, and much was added in the translation. I prefer the Greek to English Interlinear. It was translated using the oldest Greek manuscripts available.
The KJV was translated primarily from the Greek Byzantine text and the Hebrew MT. That said, the Vulgate is a very good translation into Latin, by the pious St. Jerome, and the Latin word persona comes much closer than the modern English person towards grasping the full meaning of prosopon.
There is no case in the whole Scripture does the word God mean God in tree persons. a tri-personal God is never mentioned. Jesus never even hinted that he was over-turning his whole Hebrew heritage in the matter of defining who God is by including himself in the so-called Godhead. (btw, Godhead is not in the original Greek Scripture) RSV, Romans 1:20 "Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse" The KJV has it: his eternal power and Godhead.
Christianity grew out of a Jewish context, with Jewish theology and Jewish concerns. I believe Scripture must be interpreted by its earliest teaching because of it's Jewish framework.
Jerome was a Roman. He learned Latin and knew very little Greek.
He was far removed from the Jewish disciples. He knew nothing of it's Jewish framework.
Actually, there is significant evidence that Jesus believed He was One with the Father.Jesus never even hinted that he was over-turning his whole Hebrew heritage in the matter of defining who God is by including himself in the so-called Godhead.
There are significant parallels in the OT and NT which allow for a remarkably clear interpretation that the Messiah is God, Himself.Christianity grew out of a Jewish context, with Jewish theology and Jewish concerns. I believe Scripture must be interpreted by its earliest teaching because of it's Jewish framework.