Interesting Devotion I had today. Might be interesting to discuss it.

Michie said:

Utopian idealists who dream of mankind creating "Heaven on Earth" are destined for disappointment. But though they are wrong in believing that humans can achieve a utopian existence apart from God, the reality of Heaven on Earth-God dwelling with mankind in the world he made for us-will in fact be realized. It is God's dream. It is God's plan. He-not we-will accomplish it.

Thoughts?

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I don't think we'll achieve it, but I think we need to work towards it anyway. Making the planet a better place for all is a good way to use the time we're here, in my opinion.
Quotes like that concern me a bit because I think they might allow people to look at the problems in the world and say 'not my problem...God will fix it'

Jesus said "you will always have the poor with you"

this means that no man made solution will ever correct all the social problems of this world

but it is also shows that we have an ongoing commitment to seek justice and help the poor

I think it is one of those things where we strive for it and focus on we are not perfect so we will not make it 100%. We have to look at it as we can not let perfect be the enemy of good. Basically we must hand it over to God and work within the Gospel in our own imperfect way. When Lily helped with chores when she was younger, such as folding clothes they were too big for her but I did not discourage it. I would let her make her mistakes and guide her. I would gladly accept the imperfect done with the intention of the best that she could do. As she gets older I expect more but not perfection. And some things...bed sheets are still too much for her. This is us with God. We are to gladly try to make the world better even though we will be imperfect. Because we are a people of hope and we know in the end He will perfect it. But like the child with chores we offer our efforts in love and the desire to be part of the good.

I agree with the sentiments of the o.p. If we want to further the advancement of humanity we must build up the kingdom of God on earth. That is the one true Catholic faith and this task that falls to us in this time... unfortunatly we are doing a very poor job. The Church is in turmoil and therefore the world itself.

Many people think the problems in the church are due to the problems in the world... but on a supernatural level i believe the opposite is true

Michie said:

Utopian idealists who dream of mankind creating "Heaven on Earth" are destined for disappointment. But though they are wrong in believing that humans can achieve a utopian existence apart from God, the reality of Heaven on Earth-God dwelling with mankind in the world he made for us-will in fact be realized. It is God's dream. It is God's plan. He-not we-will accomplish it.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

very interesting! it reminds me much of the incident in the OT of the motivation for the Tower of Bable.
and look where that got us!

most people who dream of creating a 'Heaven on Earth" are not looking so much to improve Earth as they are looking to replace Heaven.
As Christians, they forget that our citizenship is in heaven---not here.

We are stuck in an imperfect world, much as the Israelites were stuck in Egypt, making bricks for someone else.
Their life was no bed of roses and neither should we expect ours to be.

We don't work to improve what we have here, but we endure, and look expectantly to be returned to our rightful country of Heaven.
We don't forget that this Earth infested with sin will be destroyed, and that a New Earth free from sin will be created by our God for His glory.

And we don't loose sight of that heavenly expectation and try instead to improve by ourselves what is after all our captivity.
lest when the cell door is finally opened and we are free, we decline the offer and cling to our cell and it's chains as though they were our home.

No, we are like the expectant bridesmaids who waited for the return of the Bridegroom with extra oil for their lamps.
They did not know the hour of His return, but they did not doubt that He would come.
They did not forget that they were indeed bridesmaids, and that their abode would change with His comming.

Sin is not something that can be improved or renovated by anyone except God Himself.

" Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven . "

If we just mouth those words and don't strive to put them into practice in our living together on this planet , then we are not praying in spirit and in truth .

pdudgeon said:

very interesting! it reminds me much of the incident in the OT of the motivation for the Tower of Bable.
and look where that got us!

most people who dream of creating a 'Heaven on Earth" are not looking so much to improve Earth as they are looking to replace Heaven.
As Christians, they forget that our citizenship is in heaven---not here.

We are stuck in an imperfect world, much as the Israelites were stuck in Egypt, making bricks for someone else.
Their life was no bed of roses and neither should we expect ours to be.

We don't work to improve what we have here, but we endure, and look expectantly to be returned to our rightful country of Heaven.
We don't forget that this Earth infested with sin will be destroyed, and that a New Earth free from sin will be created by our God for His glory.

And we don't loose sight of that heavenly expectation and try instead to improve by ourselves what is after all our captivity.
lest when the cell door is finally opened and we are free, we decline the offer and cling to our cell and it's chains as though they were our home.

No, we are like the expectant bridesmaids who waited for the return of the Bridegroom with extra oil for their lamps.
They did not know the hour of His return, but they did not doubt that He would come.
They did not forget that they were indeed bridesmaids, and that their abode would change with His comming.

Sin is not something that can be improved or renovated by anyone except God Himself.

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Hi,

Other than not understanding your word captivity, I loved all your words.

Is exile, exile in strange land, what you meant, or is captivity what you meant?

LOVE,

Colin said:

" Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven . "

If we just mouth those words and don't strive to put them into practice in our living together on this planet , then we are not praying in spirit and in truth .

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Hi,

Please say this again. I am struggling with your meaning slightly.

Poor, we have, as Jesus said.

Doing God's Will on earth makes sense.

Praying in truth, that I do not know what you mean yet.

Praying in the spirit, I do think I know what you mean.

Edify me, if you would please.

LOVE,

katerinah1947 said:

Hi,

Please say this again. I am struggling with your meaning slightly.

Poor, we have, as Jesus said.

Doing God's Will on earth makes sense.

Praying in truth, that I do not know what you mean yet.

Praying in the spirit, I do think I know what you mean.

Edify me, if you would please.

LOVE,

Click to expand...

Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well : " True worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth . "

In our prayer there needs to be truth.....sincerity......praying according to the will of God .

In our prayer there needs to be a total dependence on the Holy Spirit .

If what we pray is not true to what is in our hearts , then we are just being bogus .

All prayer must be inspired by the Holy Spirit , for only by Him can we say that Jesus is Lord , and only by Him , through our prayer , will the Father's will be done .

katerinah1947 said:

Hi,

Other than not understanding your word captivity, I loved all your words.

Is exile, exile in strange land, what you meant, or is captivity what you meant?

LOVE,

Click to expand...

they are both.
we are in captivity when we are bound by sin itself, as well as the results of indulging in that sin.

often times we don't see the chains that bind us or the cell that holds us captive to sin, but they both are there.
and if we extend our stay in that cell, it becomes our home.

it's familiar, and in it's own way both the captivity and the sin represent a false safety
and false comfort.
But neither one brings us peace.
Indeed, we are so bound by them that the thought of freedom can bring fear
and denial of being bound in some cases.
and that is why it's so easy to 'go back just for a visit' to that cell which is so familiar.

What we forget just like the Iseaelites forgot in the desert is that once we leave that cell,
once those chains are broken, we are not the same person.
so even going back to the cell that held us will seem different, because WE are different.

Christ alone breaks those chains of sin that bind us, and when He comes again He will free us from our exile here on Earth.

So just as the Israelites were forced into both exile from their homeland, and into slavery by the Egyptians,
as Christians we are in exile here on this sinful Earth, because our citizenship is in Heaven.

and just as the plagues that assaulted the Egyptians helped to break the bonds of slavery that were endured by the Israelites,
they were not fully free until they were released to go back to their own land, and some of the Egyptians also accompanied them on that journey.

But it did not end there.
While they were free to go, they also had to learn how to leave behind those things that they took comfort from in their captivity.
And they had to learn to once again put their trust in God to lead and care for them.

So also it is with us.
being released from the chains of sin that held us is only the first part.
we also have to be willing to be released from those familiar chains of comfort which dull our sensitivity to the fact that we are slaves to sin,
and instead we need to trust and accept the care of God our Father over us.

and that's what Lent is about.... breaking our comfort levels by giving up that which is familiar, and learning again how to go from captivity to freedom under God.
Listen to the First Reading tomorrow.

Colin said:

Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well : " True worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth . "

In our prayer there needs to be truth.....sincerity......praying according to the will of God .

In our prayer there needs to be a total dependence on the Holy Spirit .

If what we pray is not true to what is in our hearts , then we are just being bogus .

All prayer must be inspired by the Holy Spirit , for only by Him can we say that Jesus is Lord , and only by Him , through our prayer , will the Father's will be done .

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Hi,

Many apologies, please accept for what I will say next.

I cannot accept, nor remember what I do not understand.

'truth' as you state that, I cannot understand to me what it means even if you are right.

And my definition for worship is love.

I do mean, that when I read or hear that word, worship, I actively change it to me, internally to love.

I do that because worship makes little sense to me. Maybe I am dumb that way.

Also, as if you have not heard me speak enough already, that word, worship can be used for idols, or false gods, but love hardly fits either of those two situations.

Worship in truth?

Really it makes little sense yet, if I don't take your definition next, and if I do, it violates being egoless, and another thing I do, which is pray for others only and not myself.

If, though, truth is telling the truth, like Jesus is Real, then praying in truth is praying with that reality.

If, though, this continues to work, and praying in truth is telling the truth, then in all ways my own personal prayers work.

If, I pray in truth that way, telling the truth, even the way Jesus told us to pray works.

One of the most difficult aspects, of my personal truth is like four others that I know of, I am not allowed to pray for myself.

I am not allowed to do for myself either.

My prayer life is set, and has been for years.

I live in an at home Ermitage/Hermitage.

Being online is a requirement, as I do outreach through that. Normally I don't talk about that.

Also, who I am to God, is a truth, along With Who God Is, Is A Truth.

SO.

So, if in the spirit I pray that way, meaning that with The Holy Spirit, actively guiding me, felt or not, as both conditions happen from time to time, if I pray in the spirit, with all my personal truths, And All The Personal Truths About God, in that way praying in spirit and truth makes sense to me.

I hope now, that is not what you said.

If it is, sorry. And before I press Post Reply, I am going to reread your statement.

OhMy! It looks like you may have said just that.

Sincere, and the truth in our hearts.

Your words are not clicking, but that looks like my problem only, now.

True to our hearts. ! If we do not pray in spirit, and are not totally true, to ours hearts while praying, then we are not praying in truth and spirit.

THAT, THAT. THAT is what you said, isn't it????????

This?:

True to our hearts. ! If we do not pray in spirit, and are not totally true, to ours hearts while praying, then we are not praying in truth and spirit.

Again, I am slow. Is that what you said and meant?

LOVE,

God works through all of us if we cooperate with his grace. God can use atheists and non-believers as instruments of good. While they might not recognize the source of their inspiration, or may mislabel it, they cooperate with grace when their hearts and hands are opened to the world's needs.

Our world has many secular "saints," as well as "saints" in every faith expression.

These non-believers should inspire those of us who believe. If they are cooperating with grace, can we not do the same?

Michie said:

Utopian idealists who dream of mankind creating "Heaven on Earth" are destined for disappointment. But though they are wrong in believing that humans can achieve a utopian existence apart from God, the reality of Heaven on Earth-God dwelling with mankind in the world he made for us-will in fact be realized. It is God's dream. It is God's plan. He-not we-will accomplish it.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

I agree, we can never fully achieve Heaven-on-Earth this side of the Second Coming. That being said, should we abandon any effort to work towards it? I think there's a middle ground where we understand we're not going to reach any kind of perfection without Christ (both in ourselves and in creation around us), but if we fail to try then that can lead to a fatalistic outlook on everything which could potentially mutate into abuse of God's creation.

I think we can make an effort to implement our best notions of "utopia" and maintain an understanding that it will be incomplete as long as God's not orchestrating the effort. We just need to be realistic about how good things can possibly be by our own efforts.

Rhamiel said:

Jesus said "you will always have the poor with you"

this means that no man made solution will ever correct all the social problems of this world

but it is also shows that we have an ongoing commitment to seek justice and help the poor

Click to expand...

I'm not sure Jesus even meant to comment on poor folk, as such, other than as a constant, but was referring to them elliptically, in contradistinction, to indicate his own impermanent presence among them. Insofar, then, I think he meant it in a general sense, lest we take it as an argument for complacency - in which manner it is nevertheless still interpreted by the venal and selfish.

Ironically, the same could be said of Jesus in the poor ; the decoration of the church is a fine thing, but, as I think St Basil pointed out, in one Office of Readings, it would be a lamentable thing for us to spend money decorating it handsomely, while ignoring Jesus' prior claim on them in a beggar, hungry, shivering and in rags, outside in the street. Or as he also put it, If you had occasion to meet the emperor, but instead of paying him homage, turned to a statue of him and paid homage to that instead ! He would think you were deliberately mocking him.

Mountain_Girl406 said:

I don't think we'll achieve it, but I think we need to work towards it anyway. Making the planet a better place for all is a good way to use the time we're here, in my opinion.
Quotes like that concern me a bit because I think they might allow people to look at the problems in the world and say 'not my problem...God will fix it'

Click to expand...

We can be the best we can be, but we can never compete with the devil or fix the fallen world.

Fantine said:

God works through all of us if we cooperate with his grace. God can use atheists and non-believers as instruments of good.

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good point
we can see that God even used pagan empires to chastise the people of Israel when they rebelled against the Lord, going as far as to call think King of Babylon "my servant" because he unknowingly did the will of the Lord

Jeremiah 25:8-9
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts: Because you have not heard my words: 9 Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual desolations.

Mikhael Disciple of Christ said:

We can be the best we can be, but we can never compete with the devil or fix the fallen world.

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But do we try anyway, or just sit by and watch the suffering?