Arminianism is inconsistent

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OzSpen

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I agree, but you must ask yourself: What makes a person willing to receive the gospel and others that hear and do not believe it? Their heart, right?

Two verses come to mind that explain that:
  • Titus 2:11 (ESV), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people';
  • Romans 1:18 (ESV), ' For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth'.
Salvation is made available to all but suppression of this truth through ungodly living causes them to be blinded by it.

Oz
 
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twin1954

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Two verses come to mind that explain that:
  • Titus 2:11 (ESV), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people';
  • Romans 1:18 (ESV), ' For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth'.
Salvation is made available to all but suppression of this truth through ungodly living causes them to be blinded by it.

Oz
Two things: the grace of God in Christ has appeared but all men do not believe; why is that?
You use the passage from Rom. 1 out of it context. It isn't speaking of unbelief as much as it is speaking of the knowledge of God innate in man that they suppress and change into a false god.

One other thing that you must answer if your theology is correct: if the Lord Jesus Christ died for all the sin of all men was unbelief not one of the sins that He died for?
 
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OzSpen

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One other thing that you must answer if your theology is correct: if the Lord Jesus Christ died for all the sin of all men was unbelief not one of the sins that He died for?

I don't find that to be a coherent question, so I can't answer it.
 
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JM

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London Baptist Confession of Faith:

This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, doth, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrency, praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavour, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well-pleasing in all things. ( Zechariah 12:10; Acts 11:18; Ezekiel 36:31; 2 Corinthians 7:11; Psalms 119:6; Psalms 119:128 ) chp. 15.3

John Gill:

Special faith in Christ is of the operation of the Spirit of God:
he produces it by his mighty power in the soul;
he enlightens the mind,
reveals the object,
brings near Christ, his righteousness and salvation, and
enables the sensible sinner to look unto him,
lay hold on him,
and receive his as his Savior and Redeemer;
hence he is called the Spirit of faith (2 Cor. 4:13);
because he is the author of it, who begins and carries on, and
will perform the work of faith with power:
the principal use of which grace is to receive all from Christ, and
give him the glory.

God has put this honor upon it, to constitute and appoint it to be the receiver-general of all the blessings of grace.

It receives Christ himself as the Father’s free-gift;
it receives out of the fulness of Christ,
even grace for grace,
or and abundance of it;
it receives the blessing of righteousness from the Lord of justification;
it receives the remission of sins through his blood, according to the gospel-declaration;
it receives the adoption of children,
in consequence of the way being opened for it through the redemption which is in Christ;
it receives the inheritance among them that are sanctified,
the right unto it, and the claim upon it; and to this post it is advanced,
that all the glory might redound to the grace of God; it is of faith, that it might be by grace (Rom. 4:16).

(FAITH IN GOD AND HIS WORD: HE ESTABLISHMENT AND PROSPERITY OF HIS PEOPLE: A Sermon, Preached at a Wednesday’s Evening Lecture, in GREAT EAST-CHEAP, Dec. 27, 1753.)

Again, The London Baptist Confession of 1689 reads;

ch.14

The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,”

“By this faith a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word for the authority of God himself”

“and so is enabled to cast his soul upon the truth thus believed”

ch.15
“This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin”

The idea that all men everywhere must repent is biblical, BUT, the repentance required of the reprobate is legal. All men are guilty of breaking God’s law and therefore must repent of their deeds and they never do. Sure, unsaved people feel guilt or regret over their sins but they still rage against the holy and living God. Only the elect are given the “evangelical grace” of repentance and faith that leads to eternal life.

John Gill’s comments on Acts 20.21 are useful in understanding this subject and so, I post them below.

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks,…. To the Jews first in their synagogue, and then to both Jews and Greeks, or Gentiles, in the school of Tyrannus; opening and explaining to both the nature and use, urging and insisting upon, and proving by undeniable testimonies the necessity,

of repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ: the former of these is not a legal repentance, but an evangelical one; which flows from a sense of the love of God, and an application of pardoning grace and mercy, and is always attended with hope, at least of interest in it, and as here with faith in Christ Jesus:

it lies in a true sight and sense of sin, as exceeding sinful, being contrary to the nature and law of God, and a deformation of the image of God in man, as well as followed with dreadful and pernicious consequences; and in a godly sorrow for it, as it is committed against a God of infinite purity and holiness, and of love, grace, and mercy; and it shows itself in shame for sin, and blushing at it, and in an ingenious confession of it, and forsaking it: and the latter of these is not an historical faith, or an assent of the mind to whatsoever is true concerning the person, office, and grace of Christ; but is a spiritual act of the soul upon him;

it is a looking and going out to him, a laying hold and leaning on him, and trusting in him, for grace, righteousness, peace, pardon, life, and salvation. Now these two were the sum of the apostle’s ministry; this is a breviary or compendium of it; a form of sound words held fast and published by him: and as these two go together as doctrines in the ministry of the word, they go together as graces in the experience of the saints; where the one is, there the other is; they are wrought in the soul at one and the same time, by one and the same hand;

the one is not before the other in order of time, however it may be in order of working, or as to visible observation; repentance is mentioned before faith, not that it precedes it, though it may be discerned in its outward acts before it; yet faith as to its inward exercise on Christ is full as early, if not earlier; souls first look to Christ by faith, and then they mourn in tears of evangelical repentance, Zec 12:10 though the order of the Gospel ministry is very fitly here expressed, which is first to lay before sinners the evil of sin, and their danger by it, in order to convince of it, and bring to repentance for it; and then to direct and encourage them to faith in Christ Jesus, as in the case of the jailer, Ac 16:29 and this is, generally speaking, the order and method in which the Holy Spirit proceeds;

he is first a spirit of conviction and illumination, he shows to souls the exceeding sinfulness of sin, causes them to loath it and themselves for it, and humbles them under a sense of it; and then he is a spirit of faith, he reveals Christ unto them as God’s way or salvation, and works faith in them to believe in him. Moreover, these two, repentance and faith, were the two parts of Christ’s ministry, Mr 1:15 and are what, he would have published and insisted on, in the preaching of the word, Lu 24:47 so that the ministry of the apostle was very conformable to the mind and will of Christ.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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royal priest

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London Baptist Confession of Faith:

This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, doth, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrency, praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavour, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well-pleasing in all things. ( Zechariah 12:10; Acts 11:18; Ezekiel 36:31; 2 Corinthians 7:11; Psalms 119:6; Psalms 119:128 ) chp. 15.3

John Gill:

Special faith in Christ is of the operation of the Spirit of God:
he produces it by his mighty power in the soul;
he enlightens the mind,
reveals the object,
brings near Christ, his righteousness and salvation, and
enables the sensible sinner to look unto him,
lay hold on him,
and receive his as his Savior and Redeemer;
hence he is called the Spirit of faith (2 Cor. 4:13);
because he is the author of it, who begins and carries on, and
will perform the work of faith with power:
the principal use of which grace is to receive all from Christ, and
give him the glory.

God has put this honor upon it, to constitute and appoint it to be the receiver-general of all the blessings of grace.

It receives Christ himself as the Father’s free-gift;
it receives out of the fulness of Christ,
even grace for grace,
or and abundance of it;
it receives the blessing of righteousness from the Lord of justification;
it receives the remission of sins through his blood, according to the gospel-declaration;
it receives the adoption of children,
in consequence of the way being opened for it through the redemption which is in Christ;
it receives the inheritance among them that are sanctified,
the right unto it, and the claim upon it; and to this post it is advanced,
that all the glory might redound to the grace of God; it is of faith, that it might be by grace (Rom. 4:16).

(FAITH IN GOD AND HIS WORD: HE ESTABLISHMENT AND PROSPERITY OF HIS PEOPLE: A Sermon, Preached at a Wednesday’s Evening Lecture, in GREAT EAST-CHEAP, Dec. 27, 1753.)

Again, The London Baptist Confession of 1689 reads;

ch.14

The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,”

“By this faith a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word for the authority of God himself”

“and so is enabled to cast his soul upon the truth thus believed”

ch.15
“This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin”

The idea that all men everywhere must repent is biblical, BUT, the repentance required of the reprobate is legal. All men are guilty of breaking God’s law and therefore must repent of their deeds and they never do. Sure, unsaved people feel guilt or regret over their sins but they still rage against the holy and living God. Only the elect are given the “evangelical grace” of repentance and faith that leads to eternal life.

John Gill’s comments on Acts 20.21 are useful in understanding this subject and so, I post them below.

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks,…. To the Jews first in their synagogue, and then to both Jews and Greeks, or Gentiles, in the school of Tyrannus; opening and explaining to both the nature and use, urging and insisting upon, and proving by undeniable testimonies the necessity,

of repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ: the former of these is not a legal repentance, but an evangelical one; which flows from a sense of the love of God, and an application of pardoning grace and mercy, and is always attended with hope, at least of interest in it, and as here with faith in Christ Jesus:

it lies in a true sight and sense of sin, as exceeding sinful, being contrary to the nature and law of God, and a deformation of the image of God in man, as well as followed with dreadful and pernicious consequences; and in a godly sorrow for it, as it is committed against a God of infinite purity and holiness, and of love, grace, and mercy; and it shows itself in shame for sin, and blushing at it, and in an ingenious confession of it, and forsaking it: and the latter of these is not an historical faith, or an assent of the mind to whatsoever is true concerning the person, office, and grace of Christ; but is a spiritual act of the soul upon him;

it is a looking and going out to him, a laying hold and leaning on him, and trusting in him, for grace, righteousness, peace, pardon, life, and salvation. Now these two were the sum of the apostle’s ministry; this is a breviary or compendium of it; a form of sound words held fast and published by him: and as these two go together as doctrines in the ministry of the word, they go together as graces in the experience of the saints; where the one is, there the other is; they are wrought in the soul at one and the same time, by one and the same hand;

the one is not before the other in order of time, however it may be in order of working, or as to visible observation; repentance is mentioned before faith, not that it precedes it, though it may be discerned in its outward acts before it; yet faith as to its inward exercise on Christ is full as early, if not earlier; souls first look to Christ by faith, and then they mourn in tears of evangelical repentance, Zec 12:10 though the order of the Gospel ministry is very fitly here expressed, which is first to lay before sinners the evil of sin, and their danger by it, in order to convince of it, and bring to repentance for it; and then to direct and encourage them to faith in Christ Jesus, as in the case of the jailer, Ac 16:29 and this is, generally speaking, the order and method in which the Holy Spirit proceeds;

he is first a spirit of conviction and illumination, he shows to souls the exceeding sinfulness of sin, causes them to loath it and themselves for it, and humbles them under a sense of it; and then he is a spirit of faith, he reveals Christ unto them as God’s way or salvation, and works faith in them to believe in him. Moreover, these two, repentance and faith, were the two parts of Christ’s ministry, Mr 1:15 and are what, he would have published and insisted on, in the preaching of the word, Lu 24:47 so that the ministry of the apostle was very conformable to the mind and will of Christ.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
This really answers the issue. Yes, God gives faith. However, in order for faith to exist, God must cause the intellect, affections, and will to agree and move the soul to confide in the thing agreed upon. Romans 10:10; Acts of the Apostles 16:14; Hebrews 11:1
An infant does not have the intellect necessary to apprehend matters of salvation (unless it's deliverance from starvation, then he knows exactly where to turn:D)

I am not concluding that infants perish when they die. I am saying that if the Lord were to remove Adam's damnable mark from them, it would have to be by some means other than by giving them faith in the Gospel. Which, of course, our Lord would be more than able to do, if He were so inclined to.
 
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Sovereign Grace

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To answer the OP....

Yes, Arminianism is inconsistent. Why would I make such a claim? Romans 3:23 says that "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Then in Romans 6:23 it says "the wages of sin is death." Now, if a baby dies in its 'sinless' state, how can 'all fall short of the glory of God' and 'the wages of sin is death' apply to those who died sinless?

So if a baby dies sinless, then how can it die, seeing the wages of sin is death? If a baby dies sinless, then how can it be said 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God'? So then you have a quandary, an conundrum of sorts. Either babies died sinless, which is in direct opposition of the word of God, or all does not mean all. Now, which is it?
 
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mikedsjr

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Otherwise, saying that an infant cannot have faith because an infant cannot understand uses an Arminian reasoning to refute a Calvinistic position, which is not really a valid argument. It's not the Calvinistic reasoning that is contradicting itself.
Yep, that is a blunder of Calvinism. However the greater blunder is Arminianism believes salvation is by a choice of belief. Overall, it's the Baptist Faith's biggest blunder. Fortunately it's a surface level blunder.
 
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Bluelion

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Yep, that is a blunder of Calvinism. However the greater blunder is Arminianism believes salvation is by a choice of belief. Overall, it's the Baptist Faith's biggest blunder. Fortunately it's a surface level blunder.

God says it is by Hearing God's word that a person comes to believe, they can see God, right and wrong, then must choose. As God told cain you have a choice to make if you do what is right you will be accepted, but evil knocks on your door. You have to deny God to deny a choice is made between Good and evil.
 
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OzSpen

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@ Bluelion----

Why do I hate free will? It is foreign to the bible. Adam had free will and he forfeited it and all of his posterity reaped that same benefit. We were slaves to sin prior to God saving us. Since when does a slave have any freedom of his will?

I do not find a word in Scripture that says that free will was forfeited when Adam sinned. This I do read: 'Choose this day whom you will serve' (Joshua 24:15).
 
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mikedsjr

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God says it is by Hearing God's word that a person comes to believe,
Yes, Romans 10:14. But that isn't all.
they can see God, right and wrong, then must choose.
That isn't what Romans 10 says, or anywhere.
As God told cain you have a choice to make if you do what is right you will be accepted, but evil knocks on your door.
This has nothing to do with salvation.
You have to deny God to deny a choice is made between Good and evil.
No clue where this fits
 
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mikedsjr

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Mike,

Please provide me with Arminian evidence that this theology 'believes salvation is by a choice of belief'. Please tell me what Arminius said about salvation being a choice or not being a choice. I wait for your evidence. So far I'm only reading your assertion, which proves nothing - without evidence.
Why do you think we are talking about Arminius? I'm not. I'm talking of those who claim Arminianism. You should know that is the majority view of those claiming Arminianism today.
 
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Bluelion

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Yes, Romans 10:14. But that isn't all.

That isn't what Romans 10 says, or anywhere.

This has nothing to do with salvation.

No clue where this fits

How can you say cain choice had nothing to do with salvation when it led him to being curse and rejected by God, yet Abel was accepted by God and saw Heaven? Sorry but Romans 10 is all about God calling to the people, He even attempts to make the Jews jealous so they will chose Him. Why would God go to such great lengths if a person has no choice between right and wrong.

Look at Jesus, people had to believe in Him to be healed they had to obey what He said. I am sorry but saying no you wrong is not valid argument to my points I have given evidence to why choice is true. You have said nothing but you're wrong. That shows you have no argument against my points. I don't get why people don't understand God, yet claim they see. What do you purpose a person is saved with out choice against their will? You assume all want to be saved but in fact God say some people love evil and don't want to be saved. That is their choice.
 
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mikedsjr

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How can you say cain choice had nothing to do with salvation when it led him to being curse
Cain's curse had to do with working the ground, not salvation.
Genesis 4:11-12 ESV
And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.
When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.”

Your statement suggest you reject original sin. If so, that's pelegianism. A heresy.
and rejected by God, yet Abel was accepted by God and saw Heaven?
His sacrifice had nothing to do with attaining salvation.
Sorry but Romans 10 is all about God calling to the people,
Agree, but it isn't all as testified in Romans 6
He even attempts to make the Jews jealous so they will chose Him.
No clue of your support.
Why would God go to such great lengths if a person has no choice between right and wrong.
Love for his creation made in his image.
Look at Jesus, people had to believe in Him to be healed they had to obey what He said.

I am sorry but saying no you wrong is not valid argument to my points I have given evidence to why choice is true. You have said nothing but you're wrong. That shows you have no argument against my points.
Not true. Most of the stories told do have faith attached. Not all do. A lame man's legs were restored on the Sabbath without any salvific faith. He confided with the Pharisees on who healed him. Countless people were healed and it's clear their healing were not due to salvific faith, but the faith eyes could see instant healings occurred.
I don't get why people don't understand God, yet claim they see.
N/A
What do you purpose a person is saved with out choice against their will?
That sounds like pelegianism.
You assume all want to be saved
No I don't. You clearly don't know my stance
but in fact God say some people love evil and don't want to be saved. That is their choice.
They're born in that state. Not a choice to be there. That's called original sin.
 
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Bluelion

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Cain's curse had to do with working the ground, not salvation.
Genesis 4:11-12 ESV
And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.
When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.”

Your statement suggest you reject original sin. If so, that's pelegianism. A heresy.

His sacrifice had nothing to do with attaining salvation.

Agree, but it isn't all as testified in Romans 6

No clue of your support.

Love for his creation made in his image.



Not true. Most of the stories told do have faith attached. Not all do. A lame man's legs were restored on the Sabbath without any salvific faith. He confided with the Pharisees on who healed him. Countless people were healed and it's clear their healing were not due to salvific faith, but the faith eyes could see instant healings occurred.

N/A

That sounds like pelegianism.

No I don't. You clearly don't know my stance

They're born in that state. Not a choice to be there. That's called original sin.

So once again you show no argument just say you are wrong and attempt to Label me as this or that.

First I never said anything about Adam and Eves sin which was the original sin, nor did I say we are not born into sin , In fact I said the opposite saying Jesus offers to buy us from or current master and we can accept or reject that. Your judgement is false and not by way of The Holy Spirit because it is false.

So accepting God and being accepted by God has nothing to do with salvation? why don't you show how it does not, again saying you are wrong is not an argument.

What about Romans 6, saying Romans 6 does not show any argument nor is it a point unless you point to a verse or passage.

Jesus told the lame man take up your mat and walk home, He had to obey Jesus and have faith in Him. No one is healed with out Faith in Jesus, that is preaching against God's word. You do not understand.

Sorry but you don't understand the term you use pelegianism. You are attempting to put me in a box label me as this and then dismiss me because you can not argue against my points.

and this is why You can not have a discussion with ANy Calvinist because they can not even argue their own points. It results in your wrong no its not I say so, and then Oh you are this.

I am done You can not even argue your point nor have you made any points. You state it is this with out any evidence so in your spirit your are wrong. Have fun with that, i hope you are one of the ones God rolled the dice and decided he would save, what a joke.
 
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mikedsjr

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So once again you show no argument just say you are wrong and attempt to Label me as this or that.
I hear what you are saying. I think your taking it the wrong way. I'm expressing what I understood from the statements.
First I never said anything about Adam and Eves sin which was the original sin, nor did I say we are not born into sin ,
This should have been how you started.

You said Cain choose to reject God, as if his decision condemned him. He was already condemned(Original sin).
In fact I said the opposite saying Jesus offers to buy us from or current master and we can accept or reject that.
How does one accept or reject Jesus? I assure you your going to give an answer contrary to Act 2:38 and thus questioning Peter's integrity too.
Your judgement is false and not by way of The Holy Spirit because it is false.
Not a pastoral thing to say to one trying to express what I read and give a reply to it.
So accepting God and being accepted by God has nothing to do with salvation?
Accept God for what? His existence? Peter never said in Acts 2 when the people said, "What should we do?", "accept God and your in". Your argument on the other hand was to find an obscure passage unrelated to salvation and say Cain choose to reject God.
why don't you show how it does not, again saying you are wrong is not an argument.
I have given arguments
What about Romans 6, saying Romans 6 does not show any argument nor is it a point unless you point to a verse or passage.
Vs 3,4
Jesus told the lame man take up your mat and walk home, He had to obey Jesus and have faith in Him.
Your statement is conjecture. The man does not require any faith to have his legs instantly strengthened. It took Jesus' faith to make the lame man to walk. All Jesus.
No one is healed with out Faith in Jesus, that is preaching against God's word.
Conjecture once more. Did Lazuras require faith to be raised? No. It took Jesus' faith.
You do not understand.
Ok.
Sorry but you don't understand the term you use pelegianism. You are attempting to put me in a box label me as this and then dismiss me because you can not argue against my points.
No. The statement sounded Pelegian. That's what I said. I didn't accuse you of being a pelegian. There is a difference.
and this is why You can not have a discussion with ANy Calvinist because they can not even argue their own points. It results in your wrong no its not I say so, and then Oh you are this.
I'm not a Calvinist. I can't argue my point because it breaks the rules of the Baptist forum. I just so happen to still attend Baptist church and have my entire life.
I am done You can not even argue your point nor have you made any points. You state it is this with out any evidence so in your spirit your are wrong. Have fun with that, i hope you are one of the ones God rolled the dice and decided he would save, what a joke.
You need to lighten up. No where have I said anything accusatory of you but of the points you made. Don't ever listen to a Lutheran podcast called Fighting for the Faith. You might think Lutherans are all of the devil.
 
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mikedsjr

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Free will is wrongly viewed today. People believe they have free will but that is a lie. If one has an autonomous will to reject God, they are not acting freely, but a slave to sin. Choosing to reject God is only an enslavement to sin act. Only choosing God's will is free and can only come from God giving them freedom. Then and only then does one have freedom to reject God freely, but not without already been set free from sin and death.
 
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OzSpen

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Why do you think we are talking about Arminius? I'm not. I'm talking of those who claim Arminianism. You should know that is the majority view of those claiming Arminianism today.

Please provide me with statements made by Arminians that support your contention. Please provide the sources as well.

Now tell me what Arminius wrote about that same topic, providing references for those sources.

Otherwise you are making assertions but providing no evidence. Up to this point you have provided no specific evidence (with sources) to support your claims about Arminians.

Oz
 
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