Calvinism, explained.

Aldebaran said:

Ok, so it sounds like certain people are punished by God in Hell because we chose not to believe, rather than the Calvanist notion that it's because those people were simply not chosen by God to be saved, and therefore predestined to be sent to Hell.

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It is of course that as you say, people are sent to hell for their unforgiven sins which they commit, since they do not believe God who is Christ, and are in actual rebellion against Christ, even if unawares, they go to hell fire. But you're not considering the whole council of the scriptures when you say that is all there is to these things.

Aldebaran said:

Oh, of course there is more to it. I'm just comparing the basics of it to what the Calvinists are saying, which seems to be that God predestines people to Heaven or Hell and there's not a thing we can do about it and that it isn't up to us to accept the gift of eternal life. They seem to have a fatalistic view of the whole thing.

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It is not like unbelievers are being forced against their wills to believe or not believe, they just do what comes naturally.
They have no sense of the coming judgement, many think of a God of their imaginations as the good guy working for them and will honor their own goodness by letting them into heaven, a balance of the good they do in their life outweighing the evil they might do.

Aldebaran said:

Ok, so it sounds like certain people are punished by God in Hell because we chose not to believe, rather than the Calvanist notion that it's because those people were simply not chosen by God to be saved, and therefore predestined to be sent to Hell.

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People are only ever condemned for their sin.

If one is in Heaven he can take no credit for it, but if he is in hell, he has full responsibility for it.

GillDouglas said:

Your lot has the fatalistic view that God has no say in anything, that men are lord and ruler over their own fate. Did God choose Abraham, or did Abraham choose to be the father of His people? Did God choose Moses, or did Moses decide he would lead His people? Did God choose David, or did David make himself King of His people? Do you believe that God has changed, that He no longer has chosen His own for their unique purpose to do His will? This is why we do not agree, because you want to believe that men decide. You want to believe that men have authority to change their nature, to choose God and to save themselves.

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Yes, If God had not chosen to save anyone, just letting them be, then no one would be saved.
Scripture says man's heart is evil, they love darkness and so then just naturally draw back from the light.
As Jesus says in John 3

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

v21, shows that God is doing His supernatural work in those that come to the light, their deeds done in God's power, not of themselves.

Salvation in all its aspects is not of ourselves, it is entirely a gift.

Aldebaran said:

Oh, of course there is more to it. I'm just comparing the basics of it to what the Calvinists are saying, which seems to be that God predestines people to Heaven or Hell and there's not a thing we can do about it and that it isn't up to us to accept the gift of eternal life. They seem to have a fatalistic view of the whole thing.

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The last time I checked, God does NOT need human permission
for anything. You are under his rules and his universe. Get over it.

I believe in "Calvinism" because Scripture teaches it!

Aldebaran said:

Then I guess there's no point in witnessing to others or praying for others' salvation. God will bring those people to Himself in His own time and there's nothing we can do to make that happen or to prevent that from happening. If someone isn't saved and is going to hell, it's God's will and we shouldn't try to interfere.

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Nope, Paul gives us an example in v1.
Romans 10 New King James Version (NKJV)
Israel Needs the Gospel
1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

However, since we are not God, we have no idea who will eventually be saved, so we are to pray for God to ask of God to be merciful to all men, we are also commanded to do good to all men, especially those of the house of faith.

Jesus also says John 15
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

And also if you're not of the Vine Christ, then...
John 15:5
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

And
John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

And with many other scriptures we see the same being taught that Christ is the Lord who has ALL authority in heaven and on the earth..

Aldebaran asked me, "why pray if God is sovereign?" I responded, "why pray if He's not?"

Aldebaran said:

Then I guess there's no point in witnessing to others or praying for others' salvation. God will bring those people to Himself in His own time and there's nothing we can do to make that happen or to prevent that from happening. If someone isn't saved and is going to hell, it's God's will and we shouldn't try to interfere.

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God uses means. He uses the preaching of the gospel as the means to gather His own to Himself. God actively involves us in His work, and His own come to him through hearing and believing.

When the children of Israel were fed manna from Heaven, God did not put the manna directly into their stomachs, did He? In the same way, He does not zap people. His Word is proclaimed, and it creates life where the was death.

thatbrian said:

God uses means. He uses the preaching of the gospel as the means to gather His own to Himself. God actively involves us in His work, and His own come to him through hearing and believing.

When the children of Israel were fed manna from Heaven, God did not put the manna directly into their stomachs, did He? In the same way, He does not zap people. His Word is proclaimed, and it creates life where the was death.

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So salvation includes the actions of men. That's not very 'Calvinistic'.

tulipbee said:

Aldebaran asked me, "why pray if God is sovereign?" I responded, "why pray if He's not?"

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Yeah, why pray? Can your prayers 'change' God's mind? Can any action of man effect the outcome of predestination?

GillDouglas said:

Not the individual for himself, but for others. The salvation of men can be dependent on the actions of those that God moves. In my own testimony, which I have given you, the woman who would later become my wife was the instrument He used. I had questions regarding Him that she didn't, at the time, believe she properly answered. Those responses were pivotal in my rebirth in ways neither of truly understand. God will use His own (and in some cases, the unwilling) to bring more to Him.

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I know Doug. I was being facetious.

EmSw said:

So salvation includes the actions of men. That's not very 'Calvinistic'.

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Oh, it's absolutely Calvinistic. As we've stated over and over again, we are not robots.

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" (Romans 10:14)

"Then Jesus came to them and said, “. . . go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:18-20)

Also, God's sovereignty and mans responsibility are not mutual exclusive. They both exist simultaneously. The story of Joseph is a good example of this. Joseph's brothers were completely responsible for the evil things they did to him, yet God worked in and through that evil to feed many people who would have otherwise died, and He protected the messianic line, as well.

"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people[a] should be kept alive, as they are today." (Gen 50:20)