Are you an "Old Maid?"

Oncedeceived · Feb 12, 2016

JonFromMinnesota said:
Many of those denominations have different interpretations of scripture. Some take all of it literally, some don't. Some denominations accept evolution, some don't. How do you know you are following the right version? How do you know your interpretation is correct and others aren't?

IF they take it literally, what in Scripture says they shun family members if they are not Christian? There are plenty that say they should not. The New Testament does not speak of evolution per se. Even those that do accept evolution do not believe that God did not create the universe and everything in it.

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.
2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.
3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.
4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone.
8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister ? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
11 It is written: “ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’ ”
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.

JonFromMinnesota · Feb 12, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
IF they take it literally, what in Scripture says they shun family members if they are not Christian?

Romans 16:17 "I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned.Keep away from them."

2 John 1:10 "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them."

Oncedeceived · Feb 12, 2016

JonFromMinnesota said:
Romans 16:17 "I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned.Keep away from them."

2 John 1:10 "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them."

Where in these two statements does it say anything about family?

JonFromMinnesota · Feb 12, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
Where in these two statements does it say anything about family?

It states to avoid and not welcome anyone who does not follow the teachings you believe. These are interpreted by certain denominations to include family. How do you know if their interpretation is right or wrong and more importantly, how do you determine if you are right or wrong?

Oncedeceived · Feb 12, 2016

JonFromMinnesota said:
It states to avoid and not welcome anyone who does not follow the teachings you believe. These are interpreted by certain denominations to include family. How do you know if their interpretation is right or wrong and more importantly, how do you determine if you are right or wrong?

I would say they are doing what you are doing by taking it out of context.

The first one is speaking to the church about teachers coming in and giving false teaching and it is clear that is the meaning behind it.

16 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.

7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

8 Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.

9 Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.

10 Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.

11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.

12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.

13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

14 Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.

15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

21 Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you.

22 I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.

23 Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

The second one is talking about false prophets and deceivers.

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

12 Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Now anyone can read something into something that is not there or interpret something incorrectly if they don't take the whole context being presented...that does not mean that Christianity is leading them to do so.

JonFromMinnesota · Feb 12, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
The first one is speaking to the church about teachers coming in and giving false teaching and it is clear that is the meaning behind it.

How do you know these teachers are giving false teachings? How do you know you have not been lied to and they are telling the truth? Or how do you know they're both not lying? What criteria do you use to determine this?

The second one is talking about false prophets and deceivers.

How do you know they are false prophets?

Now anyone can read something into something that is not there or interpret something incorrectly if they don't take the whole context being presented...that does not mean that Christianity is leading them to do so.

How do you know you aren't interpreting it wrong?
There is a repeating question here that I think you're avoiding. How do you know what you believe is true?

Oncedeceived · Feb 12, 2016

JonFromMinnesota said:
How do you know these teachers are giving false teachings? How do you know you have not been lied to and they are telling the truth? Or how do you know they're both not lying? What criteria do you use to determine this?

Jon, this is talking about the church during the Apostles time...the false teachers of that time. The Apostles knew what was false teaching and had given the church the directive that if anyone came teaching other than what they taught they were not telling the truth.

How do you know they are false prophets?

There is criteria the Apostles gave to check against. The Apostles gave the churches their teaching according to Christ.

How do you know you aren't interpreting it wrong?

Because I can read in context as to what the verses clearly mean.

There is a repeating question here that I think you're avoiding. How do you know what you believe is true?

What I believe about what? About what the Scripture you provided is not talking about family or even friends? About Christianity...what exactly are you asking?

JonFromMinnesota · Feb 12, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
The Apostles knew what was false teaching and had given the church the directive that if anyone came teaching other than what they taught they were not telling the truth.

How did they know it was false teaching? Because it says so is not an argument.

There is criteria the Apostles gave to check against.

What criteria is that?

Because I can read in context as to what the verses clearly mean.

How do you know the verses are true?

What I believe about what? About what the Scripture you provided is not talking about family or even friends? About Christianity...what exactly are you asking?

Well you list yourself as Christian. How do you know it's true? What criteria do you use? What test do you run to verify you are not under a misapprehension?

Oncedeceived · Feb 12, 2016

JonFromMinnesota said:
How did they know it was false teaching? Because it says so is not an argument.

They were the ones that were teaching what was given to them to teach and anything else was not given by Jesus.

What criteria is that?

What they were told by Jesus.

How do you know the verses are true?

You are moving the goalposts.

Well you list yourself as Christian. How do you know it's true? What criteria do you use? What test do you run to verify you are not under a misapprehension?

I was not always a Christian. The path was long and forked, it took God showing me who He was and how I could trust Him before I became a Christian.

JonFromMinnesota · Feb 12, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
They were the ones that were teaching what was given to them to teach and anything else was not given by Jesus.

How did they know what they were given was true? Is there any independent and contemporary accounts of this?

What they were told by Jesus.

Any independent and contemporary sources to back this up?

You are moving the goalposts.

How? You answered you know the context. I'm asking how do you know that those verses are true?

I was not always a Christian. The path was long and forked, it took God showing me who He was and how I could trust Him before I became a Christian.

I wasn't always an atheist. I questioned by beliefs. I read the bible and other apologetics and did not find the claims to be convincing. I did not find any evidence for the claims to be true or for the existence of God. Honestly, this transition made my life a lot easier and happier.

Tawhano · Feb 13, 2016

JonFromMinnesota said:
Please explain how asking questions is ridiculing someone's beliefs.

You just answered your own question: “Depends what context you're asking that question in”.

JonFromMinnesota said:
If those beliefs are harmful to someone else, yes, I think it is fair to ridicule that. For example, if those beliefs lead people to shun their own family members for not sharing their beliefs, I find that harmful and will ridicule it.

Which proves the point I am going to make. Your opinion is the gauge to what you determine is fair to ridicule. With that you demonstrate that you expect everyone else to hold to your standards and if they don’t you will ridicule them. Sounds very much like the standards of the very groups of people you are railing against.

Oncedeceived · Feb 13, 2016

JonFromMinnesota said:
How did they know what they were given was true? Is there any independent and contemporary accounts of this?

Are you getting tired moving those goal posts? First you claim that there are Christians that are shunning their families due to Scripture. I show the Scripture doesn't provide reason for that behavior and then you change it to how do I know what was given as Scripture is true. In relation to what was being discussed, Scripture true or not is not the issue you were raising; but the shunning due to Scripture.

Any independent and contemporary sources to back this up?

Yes, but again, that is not the issue you were presenting.

How? You answered you know the context. I'm asking how do you know that those verses are true?

As I've pointed out above, you are moving the goal posts.

I wasn't always an atheist. I questioned by beliefs. I read the bible and other apologetics and did not find the claims to be convincing. I did not find any evidence for the claims to be true or for the existence of God. Honestly, this transition made my life a lot easier and happier.

1. You questioned your beliefs, which is very much involved in the way human beings gain what they think to be the truth. 2. The only tried and true evidence for God is when you meet Him, that being said, Questioning can be either to find the truth or to confirm what we want to find. That is at the heart of the matter.
3. Of course it is easier. Being a Christian is hard. It probably will make your life happier now, you can do anything you want without worrying about what God thinks about it. Yet, that lasts only for this small amount of time you have on earth and then there is an eternity to come and that does matter.

HitchSlap · Feb 15, 2016

Okay.

Tawhano said:
My original post was an observation from your past post on other threads and your response to the post of Nihilist Virus. I stand by my initial conclusion based on your answer to my question. While I believe there might be some truth in story you told I do not buy the science saved me canard. I think it is just an excuse that people use to hide behind for human weaknesses; much like people who use religion as a crutch.

I believe science has the same problem that religions have. Namely that the waters are muddied by those who are out for a quick buck and use science or religion as their platform. So when someone says they used either science or religion as their measuring stick for truth, well I am a bit skeptical that they found the truth at all. Bits of truth has the same effect as falsehood. It would be difficult to arrive at the truth using bits of truth.

Tawhano · Feb 15, 2016

HitchSlap said:
Okay.

Great, at least we now have a common ground in which to base our debate on.

HitchSlap · Feb 15, 2016

Tawhano said:
Great, at least we now have a common ground in which to base our debate on.

Yep, what I say, and what you want to hear.

//

Tawhano · Feb 16, 2016

HitchSlap said:
Yep, what I say, and what you want to hear.

Feel free to reference the post where I misrepresented what you said and I will correct it.

Tawhano · Feb 18, 2016

HitchSlap said:
Yep, what I say, and what you want to hear.

Tawhano said:
Feel free to reference the post where I misrepresented what you said and I will correct it.

Nothing? Who could have predicted that eh?

HitchSlap · Feb 18, 2016

Tawhano said:
Nothing? Who could have predicted that eh?

You get what you give.

Tawhano · Feb 19, 2016

HitchSlap said:
You get what you give.

Funny that, you are unable to show where your insulting remarks are warranted but instead continue with the insulting remarks.

ViaCrucis · Feb 19, 2016

JonFromMinnesota said:
Romans 16:17 "I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned.Keep away from them."

2 John 1:10 "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them."

I recently, well within the past several months, had to address this statement in 2 John to a fellow Christian who more-or-less took a similar stance as you are as to what it means. So it is still somewhat fresh in my memory.

One of the problems with quote mining is that it rarely provides us with clarity, the entire epistle of 2 John is quite short, in fact even using a reference such as "2 John 1:10" can be confusing since, in fact, 2 John isn't divided into chapters at all, there is no second chapter of 2 John. The letter is addressed to "the elect lady and her children", the two interpretations of who this "elect lady" that I'm familiar with are 1) the Virgin Mary, 2) the patroness of the local church community. I take the second position as I think the former assumes too much. Early in the the history of Christianity Christians gathered in homes for worship, usually the homes of the wealthier members and often these wealthy members were women (often widows) who opened up their homes for use by the community. These women/widows were highly respected members of the community, and one such woman is being addressed in this letter.

Further, in the early period there were often itinerant preachers/teachers/prophets, they would travel from place to place often teaching and preaching for the community. This was fairly standard, and warning against preachers/prophets and teachers saying erroneous things was a concern for these early communities, for example we read in the Didache (c. ~100 CE) of itinerant preachers (prophets) who coming into the community would take advantage of the community's generosity, offering nothing, teaching false things, eating their full on the community's food, etc--the Didache instructs against these sorts and to not accept them. 2 John likely dates to around the same period as the Didache (depending on how early one dates the Didache, some dating it several decades earlier than 2 John). The issue here which the author of the letter (2 John) is concerned with is precisely these traveling teachers and preachers who are teaching things contrary to what the author considers authentic and true teaching, and is instructing the patroness not to accept such false teachers into her home; a contemporary application would be not to invite false teachers into the church and give them a pulpit from which to preach.

Seeing as 2 John is such a short epistle, reproducing the entire letter here shouldn't take up too much room:

"The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth, and not only I but also all who know the truth, because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever:

Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, in truth and love.

I was overjoyed to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we have been commanded by the Father. But now, dear lady, I ask you, not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but one we have had from the beginning, let us love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment just as you have heard it from the beginning—you must walk in it.

Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh; any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist! Be on your guard, so that you do not lose what we have worked for, but may receive a full reward. Everyone who does not abide in the teaching of Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God; whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. Do not receive into the house or welcome anyone who comes to you and does not bring this teaching; for to welcome is to participate in the evil deeds of such a person.

Although I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink; instead I hope to come to you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.

The children of your elect sister send you their greetings." - 2 John

I think you would agree that, given the full text of the letter, the commentary I have provided for it is a rather sensible reading.

The issue being not shunning someone, but not giving an open platform for them to disseminate their views to the community.

-CryptoLutheran

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