MJ Only Fences of Protection - Guarding the Torah

pat34lee

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It would seem a fence has been created.

Tell me the way they had been treating adultery for the ten years
prior to that case. They were acting hypocritically, and he knew it.
That case was never about the adultery, but putting him in a box;
Force him to either condemn her to death or break the law by
pardoning her.
 
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pat34lee

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Studying the wedding rites of the ancient Hebrews is a profound thing - I really don't know of a more beautiful defense for the way Yeshua loves his Bride, how he is technically preparing for her, and evidencing the the Rapture too. Simply stunning information, that explains much... The covenant we are under is a ketubah, and there is no definition found for the contract within Torah... Yet Yeshua is keeping a ketubah contract perfectly.

The same with the cups of Pesach, and what they mean... The blessing over the bread and the blessing over the wine... All of these things cannot be defined in Torah, but the prophetic messages found within them are astounding. Purim and Hanukkah too - absent as festivals, yet Yeshua kept them both.

In that, and in these, I find necessity in tradition. Where that line should be is the argument, I suppose - but one cannot escape it's validity.

I agree, and as far as civil and cultural traditions, there are many good
ones in Judaism. Then again, there are many good Irish traditions, and
German, and English... None should be mandatory for Messianics or
Christians. Or even Jewish believers.

As for Purim and Hanukkah, that is debatable. The scriptures never say
he celebrated either. He was in the temple often, and in one case, it
happened to be at the time of Hanukkah.
 
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yonah_mishael

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Truth is truth. You either accept it or you don't, in which
case you are lost. Yeshua will only accept those who are
his, so there will be no false followers and teachers.
I guess I'm lost. You've got the truth, but I don't.
 
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yonah_mishael

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The Torah is clear on the punishment for adultery.

Leviticus 20:10

If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.


There is no requirement for those executing the sentence, none, according to the Torah.


John 8:7

But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her”.

It would seem a fence has been created.
But how do we know if someone has committed adultery? What is considered adultery? How do we define it? How do you determine if someone breaks the Sabbath? How do you determine what it means to "honor your father and mother"? If we are told in the Torah that anyone who curses his father and mother is to be put to death, how do we know what "curses" means? If someone is angry with his mother and says, "Mom, I can't look at your right now! You've really crossed a line this time!" does this qualify as a curse?

The Torah is a deadly thing if there are no definitions! We can say that someone who coughs has violated the sanctity of Shabbat, since coughing is caused by germs - and germs are unclean. How can you know?!?
 
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pat34lee

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But how do we know if someone has committed adultery? What is considered adultery? How do we define it? How do you determine if someone breaks the Sabbath? How do you determine what it means to "honor your father and mother"? If we are told in the Torah that anyone who curses his father and mother is to be put to death, how do we know what "curses" means? If someone is angry with his mother and says, "Mom, I can't look at your right now! You've really crossed a line this time!" does this qualify as a curse?

The Torah is a deadly thing if there are no definitions! We can say that someone who coughs has violated the sanctity of Shabbat, since coughing is caused by germs - and germs are unclean. How can you know?!?

He gave us more than the law. We (supposedly) have minds and common sense.
Could you figure it out by yourself? You are looking for exceptions when there
were judges and priests to deal with those.
 
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yonah_mishael

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You know it. You just won't accept it.
That's like saying that I know that 2+3=8 is true but I refuse to accept it. You might not be aware, but your faith is to me completely false. Completely and utterly false. Absurdly and irreconcilably false! The level to which your beliefs are false in my eyes is FAR beyond the falseness of 2+3=8. You have no idea what you're talking about if you think that I believe in your creed and simply don't want to admit it. I could not believe less in a set of beliefs than what I believe in yours - unless we take my complete animosity toward Islam as a gauge.
 
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pat34lee

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That's like saying that I know that 2+3=8 is true but I refuse to accept it. You might not be aware, but your faith is to me completely false. Completely and utterly false. Absurdly and irreconcilably false! The level to which your beliefs are false in my eyes is FAR beyond the falseness of 2+3=8. You have no idea what you're talking about if you think that I believe in your creed and simply don't want to admit it. I could not believe less in a set of beliefs than what I believe in yours - unless we take my complete animosity toward Islam as a gauge.

I didn't say you agree with it mentally. I said you KNOW the truth.
 
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pat34lee

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Pat I'd like to invite you to re-read the OP, it seems that by your replies that you just glossed over it or maybe didn't read it at all, only the title?

I read and re-read it, and several parts of it are untrue.
Also, at least one verse is a typo and I don't think the others
say what you believe they do. I will let you check before I
attempt to answer this post.
 
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pat34lee

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I believe there is a mind that can be healthy/unhealthy. I don't believe that there are ghosts inside our bodies. Only a structure for memory storage - the brain - and chemicals that are triggered within it, which cause our individual temperaments and personalities. If the chemical combination changes, so does our personality and temperament. If the electricity stops, so does our thinking. When the storage structure deteriorates, our memories are erased. When the brain is dead, so are we.

Please read this.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12301-man-with-tiny-brain-shocks-doctors/
 
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Lulav

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The Torah is clear on the punishment for adultery.

Leviticus 20:10
If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

There is no requirement for those executing the sentence, none, according to the Torah.

John 8:7
But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her”.

It would seem a fence has been created.

I don't see a fence here exactly more of a righteous judgement.

At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.
3
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group
4
and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. John 8

As you quoted the law of Moses says:

Leviticus 20:10
If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

However they only brought the woman for judgement. He knew she had sinned but would not condemn her because she didn't do it alone.

Tell me the way they had been treating adultery for the ten years
prior to that case. They were acting hypocritically, and he knew it.
That case was never about the adultery, but putting him in a box;
Force him to either condemn her to death or break the law by
pardoning her.
I don't know what you mean by 'ten years'.
When he said to them 'he who is without sin' told them that they were not bringing to him a righteous case. In today's court of law it would be thrown out. No evidence.

They told him that she was caught in adultery, but adultery involves two parties. They only brought one.

It would be like someone today going before the judge with a person and saying that they assaulted another person.
There is no police record, no witnesses, no assaulted person to bring charges.

It would be thrown out of court.

Like some Police say, no body no crime.

If he had condemned her it would have been unjust as it 'takes two' to tango.

He judged righteously and perfectly inline with Torah.
 
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Lulav

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I read and re-read it, and several parts of it are untrue.
Also, at least one verse is a typo and I don't think the others
say what you believe they do. I will let you check before I
attempt to answer this post.
OK, can you point out what you see as 'untrue'?
 
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yonah_mishael

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pat34lee

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I read it and still didn't convert to your faith. In fact, the author is also a non-believer. Why did you refer me to it?

Nothing about faith. About your post on the mind and brain.
I thought it fairly clear since I quoted your statement.
There is more to our minds than the brain. As for conversion,
it isn't about my faith, and you're half there already.
 
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yonah_mishael

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Nothing about faith. About your post on the mind and brain.
I thought it fairly clear since I quoted your statement.
There is more to our minds than the brain. As for conversion,
it isn't about my faith, and you're half there already.
o_O
 
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pat34lee

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OK, can you point out what you see as 'untrue'?

I was hoping you would at least check your verses first.
There is no Lev. 29. It may be 19 going by one of the others.
A couple of them seem to reference the second commandment. I don't
see any that refer to building fences or protecting Torah.

False statements:

1. "Numerous times the Torah says to the Rabbinic leadership"

You cannot speak to someone who doesn't exist at the time.

2. "to keep and guard that very selfsame Torah"

I have yet to see this in Torah in reference to protecting it.
Only in terms of learning and doing it.
The rest of the OP builds on these two misconceptions.
 
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pat34lee

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Brains are adaptable. I don't see what this has to do with anything in this conversation.

Did you read the article and look at the pictures?
This guy barely had a brain left, yet he is perfectly
normal. People have half their brains removed these
days in order to stop severe seizures. There is more
to mind, thought and consciousness than just the brain.
 
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yonah_mishael

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Did you read the article and look at the pictures?
This guy barely had a brain left, yet he is perfectly
normal. People have half their brains removed these
days in order to stop severe seizures. There is more
to mind, thought and consciousness than just the brain.
Highly functioning and perfectly normal are not the same thing. The guy has an IQ of 75.
 
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