"Worth - ship"

Bible Highlighter · Feb 10, 2016

faither said:
Here's something. in your understandings, is it ever ok for us to put God or His Word in a position of being judged by us?

God's Word is logical, good, holy, and orderly. So God's Word would not violate these things.

It is only when man chooses to come up with a wrong interpretation of Scripture that ignores logic, and goodness is where we run into a problem.

For example: Some Christians believe God told Hosea to marry a prostitute. But is this what the text really says?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/97546-did-god-tell-hosea-marry-prostitute.html

....

faither · Feb 11, 2016

Jason0047 said:
While the Greek can give us another added indepth layer to understanding God's Word, you actually do not need to know Hebrew or Greek to know what God's Word is actually saying. In Acts chapter 2, God was more than capable of communicating to people in their own languages. Just ask God and He will show it to you. There are no contradictions or errors in God's Word. The English translation (KJV) is not mistranslated in certain parts. Words can have multiple meanings. Also, the English language from the 1600's is different from our Modern English. Also, one can figure out what a word is saying best when they look at the surrounding context and they compare similar verses in other parts of Scripture that say the same thing.

...

This mistranslation has being known for a long time. The one I learned it from is considered one of greatest Bible teachers of all time. He studied under bart or barth , at Stanford University, who was Rinold neighbers assistant at Union.( probable wrong spelling of names) This line up of theological heavy weights is what I bring to the table, as well as my experience that I won't even talk about until we agree on what the basic understanding of Faithing is. That's hundreds of years of professors with any manuscript they wish to see at their disposal. Don't take this un kindly , but there is no such thing as a self taught Christian unless your a gifted teacher, I've known 1 in 30 years. Eph. 4:11 states that some are gifted apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers , for what? The perfecting of the saints. We are either one of these gifted teachers whos only purpose it to perfect saints, (or called out ones) or we are being perfected by one of these gifted teachers. Theres no self teaching in the word of God.

faither · Feb 11, 2016

Jason0047 said:
God's Word is logical, good, holy, and orderly. So God's Word would not violate these things.

It is only when man chooses to come up with a wrong interpretation of Scripture that ignores logic, and goodness is where we run into a problem.

For example: Some Christians believe God told Hosea to marry a prostitute. But is this what the text really says?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/97546-did-god-tell-hosea-marry-prostitute.html

....

Ok, check this one out Jason. You i'm sure know this Scripture. " Faith comes by hearing, and hearing from the Word of God." This Scripture is misinterpreted by everyone in my understanding. The Geek Word or original texts for this word hearing means "like in a courtroom". So either this Scripture is telling us that we put God and His Word on trial, and we are to make some kind of judgment about Him and His Word, that results in Faith for us. WE NEVER PUT GOD ON TRIAL LIKE THAT!

So what does that mean. Here's how I understand it.

I'm going to add one single vowel to the sentence and it will make perfect sense and be able to be put in it's rightful place of understanding. Faith comes by "a" hearing, (Like in a courtroom) "a" hearing by the Word of God.

As I said in my understanding of the verb form of Faith used 248 times ,pisteuo,(a personal surrender to Christ, and a life inspired by such surrender.) When we surrender our lives to God the very first time, He's watching us. He's looking to see if the offering of ourselves is genuine. The Word of God aka Christ are having a hearing like in a court room to decide if your surrender is genuine. Not perfect, but genuine. If it is, He will give you some amount of Faith to proceed to the testing ground which is the parable of the sower. There the same process will repeat itself and continue until "like in a courtroom hearing" Christ aka Word of God will approve our surrender and in plant His Spirit in us.

Logic tells me we are to never put God or His Word on trial for any reason, we are the ones on trial!

toLiJC · Feb 11, 2016

faither said:
Like the lost meaning of the verb form of Faith which means "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender," The meaning of the word "Worship" has also be long lost to history.

This word worship is made up of two words "Worth and Ship," Worthship. It's meaning is simply the "shipping of worth".

We in todays world understand worship to be singing, raising hands, maybe even tithing. All of which i'm sure God enjoys . But is that what our worth really is? Maybe the amount of money we have is the measurement of worth. That would make more sense, that our worth in this world is in our bank accounts. I could make the case that " worth- ship" is the continual shipping of money to God. And in the correct state of being , in Him , that is a high act of shipping worth to God, an inner court activity. A lot of people would say, "God doesn't need our money", so that's an excuse not to give it.

But theirs one more item of worth, that God does want, and that is our lives! If we are "Faithing" to Him. (The verb form of Faith meaning, "Surrendering our lives to Him, and living a life inspired by that surrender") We are not only acting on our belief sustained by confidence, but at the same time we are performing with the Holy Spirit the highest act of worthship we as humans can do.

So sing, jump up and down, give money in secret, but what God is looking for are those who will willingly ship their lives to Him continually.

the better (the) salvation of one faith is, the more that faith is worth following, i mean better in quality, duration and the number of (the) saved humans, but what the foundation is also matters, because it is written if some worshipers worship the other god(the "beast"), they will thus risk to fall from grace and suffer more afterward, that is why St Paul said:

1 Cor 3:10-14 "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."

so if the true Lord God can, for example, save all the humans in the best possible way providing them with full/abundant life lasting until the end of (the) eternity, then it is possible to turn out that He also intend to do it, which would mean that it would not be appropriate for someone to inculcate a worse solution in place of His perfect, e.g. for less people than He can save or with salvation worse in quality or duration than His, that is why the worshipers and the spiritual workers/servants should be careful not to destroy His work, but rather to do His will

Blessings

Bible Highlighter · Feb 12, 2016

faither said:
Ok, check this one out Jason. You i'm sure know this Scripture. " Faith comes by hearing, and hearing from the Word of God." This Scripture is misinterpreted by everyone in my understanding. The Geek Word or original texts for this word hearing means "like in a courtroom". So either this Scripture is telling us that we put God and His Word on trial, and we are to make some kind of judgment about Him and His Word, that results in Faith for us. WE NEVER PUT GOD ON TRIAL LIKE THAT!

So what does that mean. Here's how I understand it.

I'm going to add one single vowel to the sentence and it will make perfect sense and be able to be put in it's rightful place of understanding. Faith comes by "a" hearing, (Like in a courtroom) "a" hearing by the Word of God.

As I said in my understanding of the verb form of Faith used 248 times ,pisteuo,(a personal surrender to Christ, and a life inspired by such surrender.) When we surrender our lives to God the very first time, He's watching us. He's looking to see if the offering of ourselves is genuine. The Word of God aka Christ are having a hearing like in a court room to decide if your surrender is genuine. Not perfect, but genuine. If it is, He will give you some amount of Faith to proceed to the testing ground which is the parable of the sower. There the same process will repeat itself and continue until "like in a courtroom hearing" Christ aka Word of God will approve our surrender and in plant His Spirit in us.

Logic tells me we are to never put God or His Word on trial for any reason, we are the ones on trial!

First, while I am not denying that we have to live out our faith and do what God commands of us (So as to continue in a right relationship with Him), nowhere does the Bible teach you have to first prove yourself in order to be saved. Salvation can be possessed by a person right here and right now. How so?

1. Salvation is said to be a gift (Ephesians 2:8).
2. We are saved by his mercy (Titus 3:5).
3. We are saved by the washing of the regeneration of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5).
4. Jesus says to the man who was sick of palsy that his sins were forgiven (Matthew 9:2).
5. The thief on the cross was instantly saved (Luke 23:43).
6. 3,000 souls were added to the body of believers in Christ in a day (Acts 2:41).
7. The Samarians shortly received the Holy Spirit after believing (Acts 8:14-17).
8. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Second, nobody truly knows Biblical Greek. Sure you can make an educated guess, but that is about it. There is no real way to prove if you are actually right in your interpretation or not unless you were to talk with Paul or if you were to compare it with the English. For God never required us to learn another language like Greek or Hebrew in order to understand the Scriptures. In Acts chapter 2, God was more than capable to communicate to people in their own language.

...

faither · Feb 12, 2016

toLiJC said:
the better (the) salvation of one faith is, the more that faith is worth following, i mean better in quality, duration and the number of (the) saved humans, but what the foundation is also matters, because it is written if some worshipers worship the other god(the "beast"), they will thus risk to fall from grace and suffer more afterward, that is why St Paul said:

1 Cor 3:10-14 "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."

so if the true Lord God can, for example, save all the humans in the best possible way providing them with full/abundant life lasting until the end of (the) eternity, then it is possible to turn out that He also intend to do it, which would mean that it would not be appropriate for someone to inculcate a worse solution in place of His perfect, e.g. for less people than He can save or with salvation worse in quality or duration than His, that is why the worshipers and the spiritual workers/servants should be careful not to destroy His work, but rather to do His will

Blessings

Faith or the verb Faithing, (pisteuo). Is the only currency that will spend in eternity. This Faithing isn't a result of works to obtain Salvation. But without Faithing (surrendering our life and will to God) we can't receive Salvation.

Whats your impression on the first line of my post?

faither · Feb 12, 2016

Jason0047 said:
First, while I am not denying that we have to live out our faith and do what God commands of us (So as to continue in a right relationship with Him), nowhere does the Bible teach you have to first prove yourself in order to be saved. Salvation can be possessed by a person right here and right now. How so?

1. Salvation is said to be a gift (Ephesians 2:8).
2. We are saved by his mercy (Titus 3:5).
3. We are saved by the washing of the regeneration of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5).
4. Jesus says to the man who was sick of palsy that his sins were forgiven (Matthew 9:2).
5. The thief on the cross was instantly saved (Luke 23:43).
6. 3,000 souls were added to the body of believers in Christ in a day (Acts 2:41).
7. The Samarians shortly received the Holy Spirit after believing (Acts 8:14-17).
8. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Second, nobody truly knows Biblical Greek. Sure you can make an educated guess, but that is about it. There is no real way to prove if you are actually right in your interpretation or not unless you were to talk with Paul or if you were to compare it with the English. For God never required us to learn another language like Greek or Hebrew in order to understand the Scriptures. In Acts chapter 2, God was more than capable to communicate to people in their own language.

...

I didn't saying anything about proving ourselves. I only said we are to surrender ourselves. As we are continually surrendering to Him, it's not about propping us up to prove anything. But as the result of this surrendering we will find ourselves to be last, humbled, hated by the world. Less of us, more of Him.

I've studied certain areas of Greek for 30 years. But by no means am I telling you my opinion on what the Greek texts mean. Your right, for me it would just be that, an educated guess. But I claim my experience that I've been having for the last 30 years. I didn't find these bible scholars and act on there teaching therefore having an experience with God. I was and am having an experience that started by pure accident really, and then as a result of knowing what was happening to me, God put a teacher in front of me and what he was teaching is what I was experiencing. I've listen to 100's of so called teachers, but this one teacher is the only one ive ever heard that unknowingly taught what I was experiencing. It just so happened I found out later that he has a dr. from Stanford, the largest bible collection in private hands behind the Vatican, He's the Greek scholar not me. He also was taught by bart or barth not sure of the spelling, but Bart was Rinold neighbers assistant at Union. All of these Greek theologians. So my part was not that hard thanks be to God. I still to this day can't fully understand what happened. I'm trying to make a stand where it all started for me, at the beginning where I surrendered my life and will to God. Not to get something in return, but it was the only thing I hadn't done. A person who surrenders to another doesn't say to their captures, here my terms. Your simply just there's for them to do what ever they want to do.

I hope this helps clarify some of my positions.

toLiJC · Feb 12, 2016

faither said:
Faith or the verb Faithing, (pisteuo). Is the only currency that will spend in eternity. This Faithing isn't a result of works to obtain Salvation. But without Faithing (surrendering our life and will to God) we can't receive Salvation.

Whats your impression on the first line of my post?

actually faith means faithfulness and to be faithful, this is the main biblical meaning of this word, to be faithful to what?, of course to the true God or at least to the goodness/righteousness, otherwise God would not be universal in His solution, because many infidel/irreligious people would be punished only because they are not religious, though they are good/righteous, that is why it was said and written that God is love, and that everyone who loves their neighbor is of God(1 John 4), so there should at least be a good attitude/treatment toward the neighbor so that it might be said there is a godliness, or at least non-infliction of evil on/peaceful attitude and treatment toward the neighbor, but the faith in the form of spiritual/religious tradition and activity will stop to exist after the end which Jesus talks about in Mat 24 and Rev, because the first man, Adam, had no such faith in the beginning before the original sin/fall, and because the purpose of the faith is salvation of the humankind, so when the relevant humans are completely saved, the faith as a spiritual/religious tradition and activity will stop to exist, or as St Paul says in his epistles:

Rom 8:24 "we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?",

1 Cor 13:8-13 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away... And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

but the exercise of faith is still important, because it must not be wrong

Blessings

Bible Highlighter · Feb 12, 2016

faither said:
I didn't saying anything about proving ourselves. I only said we are to surrender ourselves. As we are continually surrendering to Him, it's not about propping us up to prove anything. But as the result of this surrendering we will find ourselves to be last, humbled, hated by the world. Less of us, more of Him.

I've studied certain areas of Greek for 30 years. But by no means am I telling you my opinion on what the Greek texts mean. Your right, for me it would just be that, an educated guess. But I claim my experience that I've been having for the last 30 years. I didn't find these bible scholars and act on there teaching therefore having an experience with God. I was and am having an experience that started by pure accident really, and then as a result of knowing what was happening to me, God put a teacher in front of me and what he was teaching is what I was experiencing. I've listen to 100's of so called teachers, but this one teacher is the only one ive ever heard that unknowingly taught what I was experiencing. It just so happened I found out later that he has a dr. from Stanford, the largest bible collection in private hands behind the Vatican, He's the Greek scholar not me. He also was taught by bart or barth not sure of the spelling, but Bart was Rinold neighbers assistant at Union. All of these Greek theologians. So my part was not that hard thanks be to God. I still to this day can't fully understand what happened. I'm trying to make a stand where it all started for me, at the beginning where I surrendered my life and will to God. Not to get something in return, but it was the only thing I hadn't done. A person who surrenders to another doesn't say to their captures, here my terms. Your simply just there's for them to do what ever they want to do.

I hope this helps clarify some of my positions.

Do you believe it is possible for a person to call upon Jesus Christ so as to be saved from their sins (with them seeking forgiveness for their sins with a Godly sorrow) by way of prayer and be saved in that moment?

Yes, or no?

Granted, I am not denying that a person has to continually submit to God so as to have a right relationship with Him. My point is do you believe a person can be initially saved with seconds of hearing the gospel message?

....

faither · Feb 12, 2016

toLiJC said:
actually faith means faithfulness and to be faithful, this is the main biblical meaning of this word, to be faithful to what?, of course to the true God or at least to the goodness/righteousness, otherwise God would not be universal in His solution, because many infidel/irreligious people would be punished only because they are not religious, though they are good/righteous, that is why it was said and written that God is love, and that everyone who loves their neighbor is of God(1 John 4), so there should at least be a good attitude/treatment toward the neighbor so that it might be said there is a godliness, or at least non-infliction of evil on/peaceful attitude and treatment toward the neighbor, but the faith in the form of spiritual/religious tradition and activity will stop to exist after the end which Jesus talks about in Mat 24 and Rev, because the first man, Adam, had no such faith in the beginning before the original sin/fall, and because the purpose of the faith is salvation of the humankind, so when the relevant humans are completely saved, the faith as a spiritual/religious tradition and activity will stop to exist, or as St Paul says in his epistles:

Rom 8:24 "we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?",

1 Cor 13:8-13 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away... And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

but the exercise of faith is still important, because it must not be wrong

Blessings

I'm trying to look at Faithing or pisteuo at the beginning of the process. Before Christ, His Spirit, and His Word our ours. I've put some really solid meanings of what the Greek word pisteuo means. This Word was mistranslated in English as "Believe, believer, and believing. It's used 248 times in the Gospels alone. The true meaning is "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender." Pistis would be a better use of the word Faithful, it's the noun and it means God Faithfulness towards us, not the other way around. We are not capable of being Faithful towards God. I understand if you don't accept my understandings, you don't know me.

thanks

faither · Feb 12, 2016

I

Jason0047 said:
Do you believe it is possible for a person to call upon Jesus Christ so as to be saved from their sins (with them seeking forgiveness for their sins with a Godly sorrow) by way of prayer and be saved in that moment?

Yes, or no?

Granted, I am not denying that a person has to continually submit to God so as to have a right relationship with Him. My point is do you believe a person can be initially saved with seconds of hearing the gospel message?

....

Don't take this as a copout, but I think God can do what ever He wants to do. But I can't think of any examples of that right now.
The answer to your Question is most definitely no, if I'm understanding the question correctly.
I'm assuming your saying that "we" are calling out to Him to start a relationship. "I understand God to be the one calling out to us." Now that doesn't mean one isn't crying out to Christ as a result of being drawn by the Father. They probably don't even understand where the desire to call out to Christ came from, and knowing that isn't a requirement.

So lets make sure were comparing apples to apples. Your saying that a person that hasn't been drawn by the Father can call out to be saved? That they can pray for forgiveness, and be saved? And also with a Godly sorrow. Does that mean there really really sorry?
First, they can't pray to God, we can only pray "if" the Spirit of Christ has been sealed in us. The Spirit of Christ has to intercede for us to Christ that sits at the right hand of the Father. So no, I don't think God will go against His Word to save someone in an alternate manner.

But here's the thing. In my understanding, and I say again, "my understanding", there may be other doors for people to enter eternity through. Not around Christ, but as the result of Christ. Were going to have jump over a lot of hurdles together before I share those things with you.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 12, 2016

So you believe man does not have free will to choose God?

Besides, your answer was not the one I was looking for. Whether you believe God zaps a person into being able to pray or not, is a person saved when they called out to the Lord for salvation?

Yes?

Or no?

...

toLiJC · Feb 12, 2016

faither said:
I'm trying to look at Faithing or pisteuo at the beginning of the process. Before Christ, His Spirit, and His Word our ours. I've put some really solid meanings of what the Greek word pisteuo means. This Word was mistranslated in English as "Believe, believer, and believing. It's used 248 times in the Gospels alone. The true meaning is "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender." Pistis would be a better use of the word Faithful, it's the noun and it means God Faithfulness towards us, not the other way around. We are not capable of being Faithful towards God. I understand if you don't accept my understandings, you don't know me.

thanks

why are you misled by reading and dictionaries?!, scriptural and lexical letters cannot reveal to you the perfect truth, but rather the common sense could, yet mostly the right exercise of faith in That Who really is the only true Lord God of all the boundless universe (even if it is absolutely boundless), i know this even by experience, i had gone in for theology by reading the scripture for long enough time and did not remember to have known anything that way - actually i only became dumber so, but since the moment i have started to rightly exercise faith in the true One i have not remained without revelations received from Him, even a common sense has appeared in me as a result of this and i have turned out to be able to understand His truth even by it, but to read scriptural and lexical letters are not the way to understand His truth, because those letters may only suggest that truth like a very slight whiff of scent from a lovely flower that can't be seen/found anywhere, while the direct revelation from Him may reveal to you all His truth quite directly so that you may know all that is written in the scriptures even if you never read them at all

the thing that makes the true God manifest to the maximum extent is first of all the show of love for the others, and then the right exercise of faith in Him, faith is nothing without the show of love:

1 Cor 13:1-7 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned(i.e. give myself to all kinds of religious sacrifices/traditions/rites), and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things(i.e. according to the righteousness), believeth all things(i.e. is faithful in all circumstances), hopeth all things(i.e. hopes for the better despite all defeats), endureth all things."

and must we only surrender to Him and live in the shadow of such a surrender without seeking what we could do for the overall salvation in Him?!, why only to receive something from Him?!, why not to contribute with something good to the salvation of those who His will is/commands to be saved - with something good according to His righteousness?!

Blessings

faither · Feb 12, 2016

toLiJC said:
why are you misled by reading and dictionaries?!, scriptural and lexical letters cannot reveal to you the perfect truth, but rather the common sense could, yet mostly the right exercise of faith in That Who really is the only true Lord God of all the boundless universe (even if it is absolutely boundless), i know this even by experience, i had gone in for theology by reading the scripture for long enough time and did not remember to have known anything that way - actually i only became dumber so, but since the moment i have started to rightly exercise faith in the true One i have not remained without revelations received from Him, even a common sense has appeared in me as a result of this and i have turned out to be able to understand His truth even by it, but to read scriptural and lexical letters are not the way to understand His truth, because those letters may only suggest that truth like a very slight whiff of scent from a lovely flower that can't be seen/found anywhere, while the direct revelation from Him may reveal to you all His truth quite directly so that you may know all that is written in the scriptures even if you never read them at all

the thing that makes the true God manifest to the maximum extent is first of all the show of love for the others, and then the right exercise of faith in Him, faith is nothing without the show of love:

1 Cor 13:1-7 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned(i.e. give myself to all kinds of religious sacrifices/traditions/rites), and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things(i.e. according to the righteousness), believeth all things(i.e. is faithful in all circumstances), hopeth all things(i.e. hopes for the better despite all defeats), endureth all things."

and must we only surrender to Him and live in the shadow of such a surrender without seeking what we could do for the overall salvation in Him?!, why only to receive something from Him?!, why not to contribute with something good to the salvation of those who His will is/commands to be saved - with something good according to His righteousness?!

Blessings

Thanks for replying with such conviction. I'm not sure how to respond. Your not understanding the things I'm posting about. I'll take the blame for not explaining myself better, but that is the best I can do. Sorry.

faither · Feb 12, 2016

Jason0047 said:
So you believe man does not have free will to choose God?

Besides, your answer was not the one I was looking for. Whether you believe God zaps a person into being able to pray or not, is a person saved when they called out to the Lord for salvation?

Yes?

Or no?

...

Our conversation just ended when you associated the sealing of the Holy Spirit with us being "Zapped by God into praying."

The answer to your Question is most definitely no, if I'm understanding the question correctly.

Bible Highlighter · Feb 13, 2016

faither said:
Our conversation just ended when you associated the sealing of the Holy Spirit with us being "Zapped by God into praying."

The answer to your Question is most definitely no, if I'm understanding the question correctly.

Well, I have no idea what you believe. I did not know you believed that the sealing of the Holy Spirit is equated with being able to have the ability to pray to God, etc. If you wrote that, then I must have missed that detail. My focus and concern is finding out if you believe a person can be saved right here and right now. But you have been continuing to be evasive or unclear in what you are saying.

For if someone is sealed by the Spirit, don't you think they are saved?
If not, then please explain (Using Scripture).

....

toLiJC · Feb 13, 2016

faither said:
Thanks for replying with such conviction. I'm not sure how to respond. Your not understanding the things I'm posting about. I'll take the blame for not explaining myself better, but that is the best I can do. Sorry.

i don't doom any person, excuse me if i missed something important, we somehow turned out to be among guidance, opinions, and testimonies - each according to their own

one of the lies is exactly that we supposedly cannot be faithful to That Who really is the only true Lord God of all the boundless universe, because Jesus Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice for the ransom of all humans so that we can now do good/righteousness:

Romans 7:18-25 "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I want to do the good, but I cannot do it... Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.",

Romans 8:1-8 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

the "flesh" is the negative side of the mind, so why not to do good?!, why not to be able?! - it is just a matter of assiduity

Blessings

faither · Feb 14, 2016

toLiJC said:
i don't doom any person, excuse me if i missed something important, we somehow turned out to be among guidance, opinions, and testimonies - each according to their own

one of the lies is exactly that we supposedly cannot be faithful to That Who really is the only true Lord God of all the boundless universe, because Jesus Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice for the ransom of all humans so that we can now do good/righteousness:

Romans 7:18-25 "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I want to do the good, but I cannot do it... Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.",

Romans 8:1-8 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

the "flesh" is the negative side of the mind, so why not to do good?!, why not to be able?! - it is just a matter of assiduity

Blessings

If we chose to do good as the result of the flesh, that's what it is, an act of the flesh. That act does not save. But if I am Faithing into Christ, (Surrendering our life to Him continally, 4100 used 248 times) the result is the indwelling Holy Spirit flowing through us. Gods doing good through His Spirit as the result of Faithing. Not us doing good as the result of us wanting to. Am I explaining the difference clearly? The only choice we can make that connects us to God from, as you said "the flesh side of our mind" is surrender. The flesh side of the mind I would call the sinful nature. As the state of Paul in Rom 7:14 , When we are "in Christ" and He is in us, there are 3 entities. The Holy Spirit, the sinful nature, and our spirit. The Holy Spirit and our sinful nature are warring for control of us. We as our spirit are simply onlookers only choosing who we surrender our life and will to. As the result, we are not doing what the Holy Spirit does, and we are not doing what the sinful nature does. Paul says its not me doing it , but sin dwelling in me that is doing it. A Scripture I've only known one teacher not to leapfrog over.

toLiJC · Feb 14, 2016

faither said:
As the state of Paul in Rom 7:14 , When we are "in Christ" and He is in us, there are 3 entities. The Holy Spirit, the sinful nature, and our spirit.

better take your time over the findings, conclusions, opinions and decisions - don't rush this matter, there is no darkness in God at all

1 John 1:5 "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

faither said:
We as our spirit are simply onlookers only choosing who we surrender our life and will to. As the result, we are not doing what the Holy Spirit does, and we are not doing what the sinful nature does. Paul says its not me doing it , but sin dwelling in me that is doing it. A Scripture I've only known one teacher not to leapfrog over.

if we were not doers at all, then there would be no punishment, because we would not be responsible for the caused evil, but may the true One make there be no (more) evil and punishment (in future), because no one of the true Saints (that are presented in the books of the New Testament) caused evil to his neighbor intentionally/deliberately, even if some of them formerly caused evil before having become (a) true Saint(s), so from this viewpoint They were not responsible if the sin tried to use them, for They have been good/righteous, but what would (it) be if They did not try to be harmless?!

Rom 6:14-16 "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

but the sin is something strictly defined, therefore there must be no hasty/rash conclusions, opinions, judgments and decisions in this regard, because the purpose of the faith is to be provided overall salvation in the true Lord God

Blessings

faither · Feb 14, 2016

toLiJC said:
better take your time over the findings, conclusions, opinions and decisions - don't rush this matter, there is no darkness in God at all

1 John 1:5 "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

if we were not doers at all, then there would be no punishment, because we would not be responsible for the caused evil, but may the true One make there be no (more) evil and punishment (in future), because no one of the true Saints (that are presented in the books of the New Testament) caused evil to his neighbor intentionally/deliberately, even if some of them formerly caused evil before having become (a) true Saint(s), so from this viewpoint They were not responsible if the sin tried to use them, for They have been good/righteous, but what would (it) be if They did not try to be harmless?!

Rom 6:14-16 "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

but the sin is something strictly defined, therefore there must be no hasty/rash conclusions, opinions, judgments and decisions in this regard, because the purpose of the faith is to be provided overall salvation in the true Lord God

Blessings

Reading your post, I'm not sure if you agree with my understanding of Rom 7:14 or not? Can you clear that up for me ?
And this understanding, specifically talking about Rom. 7:14, took somewhere in the vicinity of 15 to 20 years of being in Christ to understand. So I'm under no delusions I'm going to impact people to much in a few posts. But I am a slow learner.

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