LDS Lucifer and Jesus are not brothers!

Ironhold · Feb 10, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
I doubt it. Why don't you just answer the question.

I did.

mmksparbud · Feb 10, 2016

Peter1000 said:
Let's look at Job_1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
AND
Gen_6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Tell me where the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD in Job?

Was it in heaven?

Was it before these sons of God came to earth?

Are the sons of God in Job 1:6 the same sons of God in Genesis 6:2?

Were the sons of God in Job in heaven, and the sons of God in Genesis on earth?

Regardless of your resistance, I can make a case from the Bible that the sons of God in Job, met with the LORD in heaven (since this was before the LORD'S earthly ministry, I suspect they met the LORD where his throne was in heaven).

I can also make a case that the sons of God in Genesis were at least some of the sons of God in Job 1 and 38, but now on the earth taking wives, but not making wise decisions.

There is a wide range of interpretations for these scriptures in the bible, and my interpretation is as good as the next guys, or for yours. I do not quote a scripture, then go about making up stuff as to what it means that is not in the bible. I research as hard as you do. I study the bible and pray like you do.

Whether you like it or not, there is a lot in the Bible that you may have never seen or talked about that is very interesting and vital to understanding God and Jesus more fully. For instance read Genesis 2:5 and explain that to me? I'm guessing that when you have read that before, you may have stopped and thought, wow that's a strange scripture, and then went on without giving it much thought. I say it is one of the most interesting scriptures in the bible, and a key to supporting a spirit creation in Genesis 1 by God/Elohim and a natural/material creation in Genesis 2 by the Lord God/Yahweh. It is important to you and I, because if there was 2 creations, Jesus and lucifer were brothers and you are a sister and I am a brother to Jesus.

So tell me your interpretation of Genesis 2:5?[/QUOTE

You can try and make a case for whatever you want! However---scripture says the sons of God are those who follow the Spirit of God. What is so mysterious about that?? Any thing that God created that follows Him is a son of God. Very clear, very plain, can't confuse that with anything else.

Now, in Job, the sons of God gathered together--of course in heaven. it was a heavenly council---God is supreme ruler, so one would have to assume from this that it was some sort of gathering together of the creations of God that followed Him---but then, Satan came also. He was singled out as he does not follow God's Holy Spirit. Though He had been kicked out from living in the presence of God, obviously God allowed Him to come to this meeting. Why!---doesn't say, but Satan has been given prince hood over this earth, as such he came representing himself as it's ruler--the other beings being representatives of their worlds???
Not one single word in this even vaguely implies preexistent human beings. You can combine that with any other verses dealing with the sons of God and still not come up with that.

No---I've encountered Gen 2:5 many times.

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

I have no idea why you find this verse so strange and in need of explanation. Gen 2 is simply a look back at Gen 1 with added details. No big mystery.

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
=Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Of course there was no man to till the ground, Adam hadn't been formed yet! He came along on day 6. And There was no rain until the flood came.

Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I guess you ignored this one:

Genesis 2:7
and Yhwh the Elohiym molded the human of powder from the ground and he exhaled in his nostrils a breath of life and the human existed for a living being,
http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mt/translation2.html
The word אל הים elohiym [H:430], the plural form of אל וה elo’ah [H:433], is frequently used as a proper name for Yahweh, the creator of heaven and earth.

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth in their filling, in the day that Yahweh Elohiym made the earth and the heavens.Genesis 2:4
http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mt/articles_names.html#5743

The following is an excerpt from the book Ancient Hebrew Dictionary.

The plural form of elo'ah, meaning power, is elohiym and is often translated as Elohiym. While English plurals only identify quantity, as in more than one, the Hebrew plural can identify quantity as well as quality. Something that is of great size or stature can be written in the plural form. Elohiym is the one of great strength and authority.

From what the bible says about the sons of God---being those that follow Him---then Gen 6:2 would read---
The men who followed God, (sons of God)took them wives of the women who did not follow God (daughters of men) As I've said many times---men are still doing that today, given a choice between a good, God-fearing woman and a pretty little world loving, tight-jeaned, big bosomed tart --they'll pick the pretty little thing just about every time!! Hormones win out most of the time! Men are visual--the little darlings.

ToBeLoved · Feb 11, 2016

Ironhold said:
I did.

Ummm. Ok. I'll go back and check

Peter1000 · Feb 11, 2016

mmksparbud responded to me about Job 1:6 by saying(among oher things):

Now, in Job, the sons of God gathered together--of course in heaven. it was a heavenly council---God is supreme ruler, so one would have to assume from this that it was some sort of gathering together of the creations of God that followed Him---but then, Satan came also. He was singled out as he does not follow God's Holy Spirit. Though He had been kicked out from living in the presence of God, obviously God allowed Him to come to this meeting. Why!---...but Satan has been given prince hood over this earth, as such he came representing himself as it's ruler--the other beings being representatives of their worlds???
Not one single word in this even vaguely implies preexistent human beings.

This is very interesting. You are willing to suggest that satan came to this meeting representing himself as the ruler of earth, and you are also willing to say that the "sons of God" who were also at the meeting with the LORD in heaven are representatives of their worlds.??? IOW, Beings from other worlds coming to meet with the LORD.

But you would not be willing to give one ounce of legitimacy, not a vague implication to the idea that these "sons of God" presenting themselves before the LORD in heaven, could be his spirit sons/children that followed Him, and would eventually come to the earth as mortal beings. Remember, the word "son" implies "child".

So you are telling me if JS had said that the "sons of God" were beings from other worlds that came to present themselves before the LORD and satan came also representing himself as the ruler of the earth, you would have no problems interpreting "sons of God" in that manner? But not as spirit sons?

You really must evaluate your position.

ChetSinger · Feb 11, 2016

Peter, I'm finding your use of colors and inline quoting difficult to follow.

Peter1000 · Feb 11, 2016

ChetSinger said:
Hope I'm not bursting a bubble, but Jewish and early church sources wrote on these guys regularly almost 2,000 years ago. They're called angels in the New Testament and by other early Jewish and Christian writers. Angels in the Hebrew scriptures come in two different ranks; these are higher-ranking ones.

Yes, they're the highest-ranking angels in the Hebrew divine council.

Elohim is not a name, at least not outside the LDS afaik. The phrase "I am YHWH your Elohim" means "I am YHWH your God". Ask a Jew, it's their language and they know.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for theology, but I hope you understand that there are several LDS-specific theological points in there that I don't agree with.

I do appreciate your enthusiasm too. And I do understand that you have some problems agreeing with everything. I would too if I were in your situation. So there is no offense, only looking for the whole truth about things.

When the Jews tell you what Elohim means, I truely think over the centuries, they have lost the whole meaning of this fascinating word.

Let me give you an example of what I mean:
I went to Israel a year ago and stopped a couple of priests on the street and asked them why they hadn't rebuilt their temple? I was surprised by their answer. They said it is because they had lost the ceremonial rituals and did not know how to sacrifice properly.

So even then, I thought, if they can lose their fairly straignt-forward rituals and not know how to sacrifice properly, how could they ever be able to answer complicated issues like: Why did Moses 3400 years ago, use "Gods", in Genesis 1, instead of "God". I figure they can guess as well as anyone can. They can even make up reasons why it was. But to admit that "Gods" were active in the making of the earth, would be the greatest of heresies, so all attemps to whitewash that idea would be invented and used by Jews in the last 2000 years.

The Jews may have at one time anciently known that there was a council of the Gods that were active in the making of the earth, and they chose Yahweh to be the El of this earth. I don't know the whole story, but don't you think it is interesting that a backwoods New York farmboy would have information about the word Elohim? Enough information that can not easily be put aside.

ChetSinger says:
Elohim is not a name, at least not outside the LDS afaik. The phrase "I am YHWH your Elohim" means "I am YHWH your God". Ask a Jew, it's their language and they know.

You see this is what I am talking about. It sould read "I am YHWH your Gods" And should probably be translated "I am YHWH of the council of the Gods", and for this earth, there is no other God beside Him. They cannot get around the idea that Elohim is plural. They twist and they turn and they suggest ancient language uses and lots of other idioms, but it is all for naught, for I believe they have lost the true meaning under the weight of "only one God".

Yes, they're the highest-ranking angels in the Hebrew divine council

That may or may not be the case, but being "sons of God" certainly implies they were his creation and that they were his spirit children. "son" implies "child".
Job 1:6 states these "sons of God" were in heaven
Genesis 6:2 implies that at least some of these Job "sons of God" were then on earth, marrying wives.

So it is not a gigantic leap to say the the "sons of God" in Job eventually came to earth as mortals, just like Jesus.

Peter1000 · Feb 11, 2016

ChetSinger said:
Peter, I'm finding your use of colors and inline quoting difficult to follow.

Thanks for that. If I want to punctuate something, how would you do it, that wouldn't confuse?

mmksparbud · Feb 11, 2016

Peter1000 said:
mmksparbud responded to me about Job 1:6 by saying(among oher things):

Now, in Job, the sons of God gathered together--of course in heaven. it was a heavenly council---God is supreme ruler, so one would have to assume from this that it was some sort of gathering together of the creations of God that followed Him---but then, Satan came also. He was singled out as he does not follow God's Holy Spirit. Though He had been kicked out from living in the presence of God, obviously God allowed Him to come to this meeting. Why!---...but Satan has been given prince hood over this earth, as such he came representing himself as it's ruler--the other beings being representatives of their worlds???
Not one single word in this even vaguely implies preexistent human beings.

This is very interesting. You are willing to suggest that satan came to this meeting representing himself as the ruler of earth, and you are also willing to say that the "sons of God" who were also at the meeting with the LORD in heaven are representatives of their worlds.??? IOW, Beings from other worlds coming to meet with the LORD.

But you would not be willing to give one ounce of legitimacy, not a vague implication to the idea that these "sons of God" presenting themselves before the LORD in heaven, could be his spirit sons/children that followed Him, and would eventually come to the earth as mortal beings. Remember, the word "son" implies "child".

So you are telling me if JS had said that the "sons of God" were beings from other worlds that came to present themselves before the LORD and satan came also representing himself as the ruler of the earth, you would have no problems interpreting "sons of God" in that manner? But not as spirit sons?

You really must evaluate your position.

Like I said, if you'r4 going to speculate---speculate within the stated facts---fact is, Satan is the ruler of this world (still under God thumb, though--) and I did use a question mark there. As in it's a maybe--if you're going to speculate, then that is far more within the boundaries of statements made about Satan being the prince of this world, and thus, if he is a prince of this world, what about the other beings? YOU ASKED about this meeting--I am presenting a perfectly plausible reason for it, certainly far more plausible than preexistent beings. You're the one that is questioning all the little details of this meeting. I just take it as it states, it a gathering of the followers of God, but if you insist on a reason, here's one that works within what has been said about Satan's role in this world.
No, I would not interpret sons of God as being God's spiritual children, whatever you mean by that. We are --as the bible clearly states, (and I quoted you all the scriptures regarding the sons of God) regarded by God as His children if you follow Him. Doesn't say we are literally His offspring which is what you say we are. The bible says God formed Adam out of the earth and breathed into Him and Adam became a living soul. You say he already existed before God made Him, but can't provide a verse that even vaguely suggests that. We are the product of the gift of life that God gave to Adam and Eve in being able to pass that spark of life down to their offspring, as He made it available to His other creations, even down to the tree and animals and other vegetation--all were told to reproduce ---you say we all already existed before we were created in the womb. No biblical reason for me to reevaluate my position.

ChetSinger · Feb 11, 2016

Peter1000 said:
Thanks for that. If I want to punctuate something, how would you do it, that wouldn't confuse?

What is most clear to me is when posters enclose other people's words in quote boxes and their own outside of them.

Peter1000 · Feb 11, 2016

ChetSinger said:
What is most clear to me is when posters enclose other people's words in quote boxes and their own outside of them.

OK I will try that.

Peter1000 · Feb 11, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Like I said, if you'r4 going to speculate---speculate within the stated facts---fact is, Satan is the ruler of this world (still under God thumb, though--) and I did use a question mark there. As in it's a maybe--if you're going to speculate, then that is far more within the boundaries of statements made about Satan being the prince of this world, and thus, if he is a prince of this world, what about the other beings? YOU ASKED about this meeting--I am presenting a perfectly plausible reason for it, certainly far more plausible than preexistent beings. You're the one that is questioning all the little details of this meeting. I just take it as it states, it a gathering of the followers of God, but if you insist on a reason, here's one that works within what has been said about Satan's role in this world.
No, I would not interpret sons of God as being God's spiritual children, whatever you mean by that. We are --as the bible clearly states, (and I quoted you all the scriptures regarding the sons of God) regarded by God as His children if you follow Him. Doesn't say we are literally His offspring which is what you say we are. The bible says God formed Adam out of the earth and breathed into Him and Adam became a living soul. You say he already existed before God made Him, but can't provide a verse that even vaguely suggests that. We are the product of the gift of life that God gave to Adam and Eve in being able to pass that spark of life down to their offspring, as He made it available to His other creations, even down to the tree and animals and other vegetation--all were told to reproduce ---you say we all already existed before we were created in the womb. No biblical reason for me to reevaluate my position.

Your OK about satan.

MMksparbud says
"YOU ASKED about this meeting--I am presenting a perfectly plausible reason for it, certainly far more plausible than preexistent beings"

You think it is FAR more plausible that the 'sons of God' in Job 1:6 "are beings representing other worlds?"

FAR more pluasible than the 'sons of God' are spirit 'sons of God'? This is a fairly simple statement.
Job 1:6 states the 'sons of God' are in heaven with Jesus.
Genesis 2:6 says that at least some of the 'sons of God' have come to earth and are taking wives to marry.

Not a large leap to figure that the 'sons of God' are really spirit 'sons of God', but a fairly gigantic leap to think the 'sons of Gods' are Beings representing other worlds.

On the other hand, I am happy to see you thinking about who these 'sons of God' were. One of these years, it may seem plausible what I am saying.

mmksparbud · Feb 11, 2016

Peter1000 said:
Your OK about satan.

MMksparbud says
"YOU ASKED about this meeting--I am presenting a perfectly plausible reason for it, certainly far more plausible than preexistent beings"

You think it is FAR more plausible that the 'sons of God' in Job 1:6 "are beings representing other worlds?"

FAR more pluasible than the 'sons of God' are spirit 'sons of God'? This is a fairly simple statement.
Job 1:6 states the 'sons of God' are in heaven with Jesus.
Genesis 2:6 says that at least some of the 'sons of God' have come to earth and are taking wives to marry.

Not a large leap to figure that the 'sons of God' are really spirit 'sons of God', but a fairly gigantic leap to think the 'sons of Gods' are Beings representing other worlds.

On the other hand, I am happy to see you thinking about who these 'sons of God' were. One of these years, it may seem plausible what I am saying.

Not when you consider that "sons of God" are created beings who follow God. A created being who follows God can be either human or non-human. Why speculate that a son of God is something other than a human male that follows God as opposed to a daughter of man, who would not be a follower of God??? Not exactly a stretch of the imagination there. To speculate that the sons of God are non-human males who copulate with humans, would mean these followers of God are no longer followers of God, you then have to speculate that God's rule of "after it's kind" can be overridden by a nonhuman, and you have to speculate that a nonhuman would be reproducing in the same manner as humans, having the same kind of "equipment" as humans---that's a whole lot more speculation needed there than very simple--they were believers in God who took non God-believing women as their wives---something which God has frowned on ever since and stated we are not to do that--for the simple reason, it eventually lead to more nonbelievers and the leading astray of many believers which ended up in the flood. A son of God being wither human or non human, yu then have to take the whole verse into account to determine which sons of god are being discussed. Since the meeting in Job is about a heavenly meeting, it's about heavenly son of God, those that sang for joy where already there before God created man, so they obviously would be heavenly sons of God, when the bible is discussing human sons of God, it is pretty obvious then that they are human followers of God. It's not wild speculation, just working within the given statements of the bible. It will never seem plausible that we are preexistent beings.

Peter1000 · Feb 11, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Not when you consider that "sons of God" are created beings who follow God. A created being who follows God can be either human or non-human. Why speculate that a son of God is something other than a human male that follows God as opposed to a daughter of man, who would not be a follower of God??? Not exactly a stretch of the imagination there. To speculate that the sons of God are non-human males who copulate with humans, would mean these followers of God are no longer followers of God, you then have to speculate that God's rule of "after it's kind" can be overridden by a nonhuman, and you have to speculate that a nonhuman would be reproducing in the same manner as humans, having the same kind of "equipment" as humans---that's a whole lot more speculation needed there than very simple--they were believers in God who took non God-believing women as their wives---something which God has frowned on ever since and stated we are not to do that--for the simple reason, it eventually lead to more nonbelievers and the leading astray of many believers which ended up in the flood. A son of God being wither human or non human, yu then have to take the whole verse into account to determine which sons of god are being discussed. Since the meeting in Job is about a heavenly meeting, it's about heavenly son of God, those that sang for joy where already there before God created man, so they obviously would be heavenly sons of God, when the bible is discussing human sons of God, it is pretty obvious then that they are human followers of God. It's not wild speculation, just working within the given statements of the bible. It will never seem plausible that we are preexistent beings.

I say perhaps in years it will seem plausible that you can believe that 'the sons of God' are spirit children of God, because at this time you are at least willing to speculate that 'the sons of God' are beings that represent other worlds.

mmksparbud · Feb 11, 2016

That speculation is within the framework of what the word of God says---that we ae preexistent, literally, physically children of God, is not something I will ever even think about. It does not fit within the framework already established. And don't think that somehow you have wormed your way into making me think about who the sons of God are--you are not the only one that I have had this discussion with, the first time was over 30 years ago.

Peter1000 · Feb 11, 2016

mmksparbud said:
That speculation is within the framework of what the word of God says---that we ae preexistent, literally, physically children of God, is not something I will ever even think about. It does not fit within the framework already established. And don't think that somehow you have wormed your way into making me think about who the sons of God are--you are not the only one that I have had this discussion with, the first time was over 30 years ago.

The doctrine of the pre-earth life is grounded in the doctrine that the spirit is a real living entity. Mormons believe that the spirit was created by God the Father and is placed in the mortal body sometime between inception and birth, so the soul of man is made up of flesh and bone and spirit.

You believe (if I am not right tell me) that when God created man out of the dust of the earth, He breathed the breath of life into him and he became a living soul. You believe this breath of life is passed down from father/mother to child and so on down the family tree.

We can look at pre-earth life or post-earth life and should come up with the same answer.

So tell me what you think happens to the breath of life after one dies?

mmksparbud · Feb 11, 2016

I believe what the bible says about it--

(Ecc 12:7 KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

ToBeLoved · Feb 11, 2016

Peter1000 said:
I say perhaps in years it will seem plausible that you can believe that 'the sons of God' are spirit children of God, because at this time you are at least willing to speculate that 'the sons of God' are beings that represent other worlds.

What's the point? It's irrelevant to God. Otherwise He would have put it in His Word.

fatboys · Feb 11, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
What's the point? It's irrelevant to God. Otherwise He would have put it in His Word.

Lol

Peter1000 · Feb 11, 2016

mmksparbud said:
I believe what the bible says about it--

(Ecc 12:7 KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Apparently the bible equates 'the breath of life' with 'our spirit'? I believe
'the breath of life' is a beautiful poetic metaphor for 'the spirit'.

Where did Jesus's spirit go, when he died?

Peter1000 · Feb 11, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
What's the point? It's irrelevant to God. Otherwise He would have put it in His Word.

He did, you are just not willing to acknowledge it.

With mmksparbud, I have moved to post-earth life. So I will ask you the same question.

Where did Jesus's spirit go when he died?

LDS Lucifer and Jesus are not brothers!

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