Why do you believe in the trinity when God and his word is simple

Der Alte · Feb 11, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
You have no answer do you for you cannot answer it. Therefore you certainly cannot assert you have a biblical mandate to support your beliefs

The topic of this thread is "Why do you believe in the trinity when god and his word is simple?" I will discuss that .
You are not qualified or empowered to decide what I can/can't assert. I am not here to play 20 questions. If you wish to post scripture and state what you think the scripture means, as I have done, we can proceed from there.

katerinah1947 · Feb 11, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Lo of course I do. I also accept you cannot respond to any questions put concerning your beliefs, and for you to say psalms 2 shows an equal trinity is as fallible as you saying psalms110:1 shows an equal trinity. As soon as you are asked to respond to scripture concerning that verse you cannot do so

Hi,

'Of course you do' is your official response.

Great! I actually couldn't tell so far.

If Jesus Is Begotten, by His Father, Who Is God, in what way is Jesus, His Own Son, Physically, or in Godship, or in power, or in might, or in anyway other Than Begotten, less than His Father, to you?

LOVE,

stuart lawrence · Feb 11, 2016

Der Alter said:
The topic of this thread is "Why do you believe in the trinity when god and his word is simple?" I will discuss that .
You are not qualified or empowered to decide what I can/can't assert. I am not here to play 20 questions. If you wish to post scripture and state what you think the scripture means, as I have done, we can proceed from there.

You have spent nearly all your time on this thread trying to prove an equal trinity. However, when questions are put to you and katerinah concerning your beliefs neither of you can answer them. You people are all the same who insist you have to accept an equal trinity. You refuse to answer questions put to you concerning your beliefs according to the plainest of scripture concerning this subject. It is just deflect, deflect, deflect

stuart lawrence · Feb 11, 2016

katerinah1947 said:
Hi,

'Of course you do' is your official response.

Great! I actually couldn't tell so far.

If Jesus Is Begotten, by His Father, Who Is God, in what way is Jesus, His Own Son, Physically, or in Godship, or in power, or in might, or in anyway other Than Begotten, less than His Father, to you?

LOVE,

When you start answering questions put to you, I will certainly respond to yours. But all you do, like der altar I to ignore all questions put to you for you have no answer for them
Trying to use psalms 2 to prove an equal trinity I woeful

katerinah1947 · Feb 11, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
When you start answering questions put to you, I will cettainlybtespond to yours. But all you do, likevder altar I to ignore all questions put to you for you have no answer for them

Hi,

So, you are officially refusing to answer any more questions???

I am still not clear on you. You wish for that to stay that way with me now?

If so, fine.

Please clearly say that, and I will accept that, for now.

LOVE,

stuart lawrence · Feb 11, 2016

katerinah1947 said:
Hi,

So, you are officially refusing to answer any more questions???

I am still not clear on you. You wish for that to stay that way with me now?

If so, fine.

Please clearly say that, and I will accept that, for now.

LOVE,

Lol. When i pointed out your error( answered your question) concerning psalms 110:1 you had to ignore the answer. THREE TIMES I asked you to respond, every time you refused. One thing at a time.
I will ask you a FOURTH TIME psalms 110:1 & zech 14:9 please explain how they go together
So you refuse to respond to any questions put to you? Why are you here then, Thi I a debating forum?
If you cannot answer ANY questions put to you that shows a lack of knowledge

Der Alte · Feb 11, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
You have spent nearly all your Tim on this thread trying to prove an equal trinity. However, when questions are put to you and katerinah concerning your beliefs neither of you can answer them. You people ard all the same you insist you have to accept an equal trinity. You refuse to answer questions put to you concerning your beliefs according to the plainest of scripture concerning this subject. It I just deflect, deflect, deflect

I have no desire nor intention of addressing various straw man arguments posted about what someone thinks I believe. As I said I'm not here to play 20 questions. If you wish to engage in a discussion with me then address my posts or if you can't/won't do that, post an official description of the Trinity and with scripture show that anything about that description is false and I will respond. You can find one in the forum rules [Click here].

stuart lawrence · Feb 11, 2016

Der Alter said:
I have no desire nor intention of addressing various straw man arguments posted about what someone thinks I believe. As I said I'm not here to play 20 questions. If you wish to engage in a discussion with me then address my posts or if you can't/won't do that, post an official description of the Trinity and with scripture show that anything about that description is false and I will respond. You can find one in the forum rules [Click here].

Deflect, deflect deflect
Paul and peter state the Father is THE God of Christ. Therefore according to you belief the one true omnipotent God has a God who is his God. So who is THE GOD of the one true omnipotent God? Refuse to answer I you wish, but yet again scripture proves your belief errant. And your being unable to respond to the point simply proves scripturally you have got this subject wrong

nomadictheist · Feb 11, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Deflect, deflect deflect
Paul and peter state the Father is THE God of Christ. Therefore according to you belief the one true omnipotent God has avGod who isvhis God. Refuse to answer I you wish, but yet again scripture proves your belief errant. And your being unable to respond to the point simply proves scripturally you have got this subject wrong

This question was not posed to me. However, it seems fitting that it should be answered.

God is a title as well as a being/entity. As the Word of the Father, Jesus was subject also the the authority of the Father (as He Himself said), which subjection makes Him no less equal in divine nature. Therefore the Father was His God because He holds all authority in the Godhead.

stuart lawrence · Feb 11, 2016

nomadictheist said:
This question was not posed to me. However, it seems fitting that it should be answered.

God is a title as well as a being/entity. As the Word of the Father, Jesus was subject also the the authority of the Father (as He Himself said), which subjection makes Him no less equal in divine nature. Therefore the Father was His God because He holds all authority in the Godhead.

I am pleased to see someone give an answer. However, Jesus stated the father was greater than he and the only true( TRUE) God. That would simply explain why the Father is THE God of Christ

nomadictheist · Feb 11, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Deflect, deflect deflect
Paul and peter state the Father is THE God of Christ. Therefore according to you belief the one true omnipotent God has a God who is his God. So who is THE GOD of the one true omnipotent God? Refuse to answer I you wish, but yet again scripture proves your belief errant. And your being unable to respond to the point simply proves scripturally you have got this subject wrong

I would also point out that your question does not take into account the nature of the trinity. It is not true that to say Jesus is God is to say that the One True God has a God.

Jesus, as a person/entity of the Triune God, is, as posted previously, subject to the authority of the Father, Who is thus His God.

How else would the Psalmist, speaking in the Spirit, say of Him (Jesus) "Your throne, oh God, is forever and ever"? (Psalm 45:6, Hebrews 1:8)

stuart lawrence · Feb 11, 2016

nomadictheist said:
I would also point out that your question does not take into account the nature of the trinity. It is not true that to say Jesus is God is to say that the One True God has a God.

Jesus, as a person/entity of the Triune God, is, as posted previously, subject to the authority of the Father, Who is thus His God.

How else would the Psalmist, speaking in the Spirit, say of Him (Jesus) "Your throne, oh God, is forever and ever"? (Psalm 45:6, Hebrews 1:8)

Lets cut to the chase/ bottom line. How many verses of scripture do you have that state Christ is the one true God? I have plain scripture Tha states only the father is
How many plain verses of scripture do you have that state salvational belief is to accept Christ is the one true God?

I have much scripture to support my view on Thi subject. You have none!

stuart lawrence · Feb 11, 2016

nomadictheist said:
I would also point out that your question does not take into account the nature of the trinity. It is not true that to say Jesus is God is to say that the One True God has a God.

Jesus, as a person/entity of the Triune God, is, as posted previously, subject to the authority of the Father, Who is thus His God.

How else would the Psalmist, speaking in the Spirit, say of Him (Jesus) "Your throne, oh God, is forever and ever"? (Psalm 45:6, Hebrews 1:8)

Don't quote hebrews1:8 without also quoting verse nine. The two together give the true picture

nomadictheist · Feb 11, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
I am pleased to see someone give an answer. However, Jesus stated the father was greater than he and the only true( TRUE) God. That would simply explain why the Father is THE God of Christ

It is true that Jesus calls God the only true God in His "high priestly prayer," but that also must be taken with the rest of scripture, or it results in error.

We know from John 1 that Jesus is the Word. We know from John 1 that Jesus, as the Word, is God. We know from John 1 and 1 Corinthians 8, among others, that all things were created through Him. And we know from Psalm 45 that He is to be acknowledged as God, as well as from Isaiah 9, where it says He will be acknowledged as the Mighty God.

Scripture does not contradict itself. Therefore, when Jesus says "the only true God," we must also consider that there are "many so-called gods in heaven and earth. Just as in His own law, God proclaimed you "shall have no other gods before Me."

Therefore Jesus is saying God the Father is the only true God among all entities or beings in heaven and earth that could be called God. This is something that you would expect from the Word.

nomadictheist · Feb 11, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Don't quote hebrews1:8 without also quoting verse nine. The two together give the true picture

Why stop at verse 9 then? Let's continue a little further...

"
8 But of the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10 And,

“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

Now tell me, who laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning? Whose hands created the heavens?

stuart lawrence · Feb 11, 2016

nomadictheist said:
It is true that Jesus calls God the only true God in His "high priestly prayer," but that also must be taken with the rest of scripture, or it results in error.

We know from John 1 that Jesus is the Word. We know from John 1 that Jesus, as the Word, is God. We know from John 1 and 1 Corinthians 8, among others, that all things were created through Him. And we know from Psalm 45 that He is to be acknowledged as God, as well as from Isaiah 9, where it says He will be acknowledged as the Mighty God.

Scripture does not contradict itself. Therefore, when Jesus says "the only true God," we must also consider that there are "many so-called gods in heaven and earth. Just as in His own law, God proclaimed you "shall have no other gods before Me."

Therefore Jesus is saying God the Father is the only true God among all entities or beings in heaven and earth that could be called God. This is something that you would expect from the Word.

Why could Jesus speak the words of God on this earth?

Der Alte · Feb 11, 2016

nomadictheist said:
This question was not posed to me. However, it seems fitting that it should be answered.

God is a title as well as a being/entity. As the Word of the Father, Jesus was subject also the the authority of the Father (as He Himself said), which subjection makes Him no less equal in divine nature. Therefore the Father was His God because He holds all authority in the Godhead.

Jesus existed in one form, Philippians 2:6, but took upon himself another form, vs. 7.

What was Jesus’ form before? If he was literally, actually a man afterward what was he literally, actually before?

Philippians 2:6-11 6. Who, being [continual existence] in the form [μορφη] of God, thought it not robbery [something to be grasped] to be equal with God:

(Greek Interlinear) Philippians 2:6-11 ος {who,} εν {in [the]} μορφη {form} θεου {of god} υπαρχων {subsisting,} ουχ {not} αρπαγμον {something to be used to his own advantage} ηγησατο το {esteemed it} ειναι {the being} ισα {equal} θεω {with god;}

The verb ειναι, translated ”to be,” in the KJV, which appears to be a future tense in English, is a present infinitive, not a future tense. “the being equal with god,” was a, then, present reality not something considered and rejected.

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him[self] the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus’ earthly ministry occurred between verses, 7 and 8. Where the one who was equal with God, vs. 6, the one who, acting upon himself, became flesh, cf. John 1:14, made himself of no reputation, vs. 7, cf. Heb 2:17, took upon himself the form of a servant, and was in the likeness of men, vs. 7. After which God, not merely exalted him, but “highly exalted” him, and glorified him with the same glory he had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5)

It was here where all the things anti-Trinitarians cannot comprehend happened, e.g. “If Jesus was God, why didn’t he know the hour of his return,””If Jesus was God, how could the Father be greater than Jesus?” etc., etc., etc.

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

If Jesus was only a mere human being, how does a human being, “humble himself and become obedient unto death?” All mankind is appointed to death, no obedience or humbling involved! Heb 9:27. Were the criminals who were crucified with Jesus also obedient, did they also humble themselves unto death on the cross?

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, cf. [יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, cf. [ יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] to the glory of God the Father.

In verses 10,11 Paul applies Isaiah 45:23, which refers to יהוה/YHWH], to Jesus as I have shown above!

The Committee on Bible Translation worked at updating the New International Version of the Bible to be published in 2011.

In it's notes under "Progress in Scholarship" it discusses the following change:

When the NIV was first translated, the meaning of the rare Greek word αρπαγμον /harpagmos, rendered ‟something to be grasped,” in Philippians 2:6 was uncertain. But further study has shown that the word refers to something that a person has in their possession but chooses not to use to their own advantage. The updated NIV reflects this new information, making clear that Jesus really was equal with God when he determined to become a human for our sake: ‟[Christ Jesus], being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.”

See full translators notes at: Bible Gateway NIV Translator’s Notes

A short excerpt from the 25 page Harvard theological review article αρπαγμον /harpagmos, by Roy Hoover, referenced in the NIV.

‘O petros de arpagmon ton dia stavrou thanton epoieito dia tas soterious elpidas”

(And Peter considered death by means of the cross harpagmon on account of the hope of salvation, Comm in Luc 6)

“Tines…ton thanaton arpagma themenoi ten ton dussebon moxtherias”

(Since some regarded death as harpagma in comparison with the depravity of ungodly men. Hist. Eccl VCIII,12.2)

Not only are arpagma and arpagmos used synonymously in these two statements, but they are used synonymously by the same author in reference to the same object—death—and in expressions whose form precisely parallels that of the arpagmos remark in Phil 2:6.

What [Eusebius] wants to say, rather, is that because of the hope of salvation crucifixion was not a horror to be shunned, but an advantage to be seized.

“Arpagma” is used exactly this way in Hist. Eccl. VIII,12.2. At this point Eusebius is recounting the sufferings of Christians in periods of persecution. Some believers in order to escape torture threw themselves down from rooftops. There can be no suggestion of “robbery” or of violent self-assertion in this remark, nor can self-inflicted death under such circumstances be considered an unanticipated windfall.

Roy W. Hoover, Harvard Theological Review (1971) 95-119, pg. 108

Link to: Hoover Article

stuart lawrence · Feb 11, 2016

nomadictheist said:
Why stop at verse 9 then? Let's continue a little further...

"
8 But of the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10 And,

“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

Now tell me, who laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning? Whose hands created the heavens?

Thankyou, once again scripture states the father is THE God of Christ who has the TITLE God. For Christ speaks in the NAME of the father(deut18:19)

nomadictheist · Feb 11, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Lets cut to the chase/ bottom line. How many verses of scripture do you have that state Christ is the one true God? I have plain scripture Tha states only the father is
How many plain verses of scripture do you have that state salvational belief is to accept Christ is the one true God?

I have much scripture to support my view on Thi subject. You have none!

No. You have much scripture only to support that God is the God of Christ Jesus. You cannot with this throw out 1 John 1, Hebrews 1, enormous portions of Revelation, 1 Corinthians 8, and so forth. Jesus is the Word of God, Who is God. This is plainly stated in scripture. Therefore, this must be reconciled with the rest of scripture.

nomadictheist · Feb 11, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Thankyou, once again scripture states the father is THE God of Christ who has the TITLE God. For Christ speaks in the NAME of the father(deut18:19)

You didn't answer the question.

Who laid the foundations of the earth? Whose hands stretched out the heavens?

According to this, it was Jesus. According to the Genesis account, it was God. Does the Bible contradict itself, or is Jesus God?

Why do you believe in the trinity when God and his word is simple

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