The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

JLB777 said:

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear (horao #3708) a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

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Oh, but don't forget the first part of this important passage:

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared (phaneroó #5319) to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26

random person said:

Oh, but don't forget the first part of this important passage:

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared (phaneroó #5319) to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26

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He will appear a second time...
Not a third, but a second time.

That's the nail in the coffin for Preterism and one of the many reasons that Preterism is considered As Heresy.

If you teach Jesus the coming of the Lord occurred in 70 AD then you are teaching the resurrection is past.


JLB

JLB777 said:

He will appear a second time...
Not a third, but a second time.

That's the nail in the coffin for Preterism and one of the many reasons that Preterism is considered As Heresy.

If you teach Jesus the coming of the Lord occurred in 70 AD then you are teaching the resurrection is past.


JLB

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Daniel chapter 12 identifies when the Resurrection would occur but your preconceived paradigm won't allow you to see it nor accept it.

This chapter in Daniel posits the Resurrection at the Destruction of Jerusalem and the passing of the Old Covenant. That occurred in A.D. 70!

random person said:

This chapter in Daniel posits the Resurrection at the Destruction of Jerusalem and the passing of the Old Covenant. That occurred in A.D. 70!

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Please post the Chapter and verse from Daniel that teaches the resurrection was in 70 AD.


If you can't then Preterism is false.


JLB

Can you two abide by the rules and take your debate to a conversation? This is a safe house for partial preterist to debate and JLB777, you're not a partial preterist. You shouldn't even be posting in here.

JLB777 said:

Please post the Chapter and verse from Daniel that teaches the resurrection was in 70 AD.


If you can't then Preterism is false.


JLB

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Daniel 12:2 is a prophecy on the Resurrection!

Daniel 12:6 the angel asks when it will be fulfilled.

Daniel 12:7 the second angel raises both hands to heaven and swears by God and answers the first angel when the Resurrection will be fulfilled.

A nice piece by NT Wright as he speaks on the error of dispensational eschatology.


Just something to think about.

random person said:

Daniel 12:2 is a prophecy on the Resurrection!

Daniel 12:6 the angel asks when it will be fulfilled.

Daniel 12:7 the second angel raises both hands to heaven and swears by God and answers the first angel when the Resurrection will be fulfilled.

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Still waiting for the scripture that teaches the resurrection was in 70 AD.

At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2


The Resurrection is associated with a time of trouble, such as never was, since there was a nation.

Does the sacking of a city qualify as a time of trouble, such as never was...

Since Jerusalem had been sacked by the Babylonians already, obviously 70 AD does not qualify as the "time of trouble, such as never was".

At that time, your people will be delivered.


Were the Jews, Daniels people, delivered in 70 AD?


6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”

7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. Daniel 12:6-7


This three and a half year period is the last half of Daniels's 70th week.


Shall we discuss Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy?

24 “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

As of this point in the prophetic timeline, the events of 70 AD have taken place, yet the 70th week has not yet begun.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


JLB

A link to Amillennialism:

Amillenial: http://www.theopedia.com/amillennialism

A further link where one can listen would be is "Amillennialism 101", by Kim Riddlebarger:
https://www.monergism.com/topics/mp...-messages/kim-riddlebarger/amillennialism-101

y

JLB777 said:

Still waiting for the scripture that teaches the resurrection was in 70 AD.

At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2


The Resurrection is associated with a time of trouble, such as never was, since there was a nation.

Does the sacking of a city qualify as a time of trouble, such as never was...

Since Jerusalem had been sacked by the Babylonians already, obviously 70 AD does not qualify as the "time of trouble, such as never was".

At that time, your people will be delivered.


Were the Jews, Daniels people, delivered in 70 AD?


6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”

7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. Daniel 12:6-7


This three and a half year period is the last half of Daniels's 70th week.


Shall we discuss Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy?

24 “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

As of this point in the prophetic timeline, the events of 70 AD have taken place, yet the 70th week has not yet begun.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


JLB

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But in the middle of the week

This piece in Daniel 9:27 is in the middle of the 70th week JLB

random person said:

y

But in the middle of the week

This piece in Daniel 9:27 is in the middle of the 70th week JLB

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In the middle of the week, the prince who is to come, brings an end to sacrifice and offering.

He erects the abomination of desolation, and proclaims himself as God.


What does this have to do with the resurrection?

The resurrection comes at the end, when Jesus returns and physically destroys the lawless one.


The Resurrection is associated with a time of trouble, such as never was, since there was a nation.

Does the sacking of a city qualify as a time of trouble, such as never was...

Since Jerusalem had been sacked by the Babylonians already, obviously 70 AD does not qualify as the "time of trouble, such as never was".

At that time, your people will be delivered.


Were the Jews, Daniels people, delivered in 70 AD?

No.


JLB

JLB777 said:

In the middle of the week, the prince who is to come, brings an end to sacrifice and offering.

He erects the abomination of desolation, and proclaims himself as God.


What does this have to do with the resurrection?

The resurrection comes at the end, when Jesus returns and physically destroys the lawless one.


The Resurrection is associated with a time of trouble, such as never was, since there was a nation.

Does the sacking of a city qualify as a time of trouble, such as never was...

Since Jerusalem had been sacked by the Babylonians already, obviously 70 AD does not qualify as the "time of trouble, such as never was".

At that time, your people will be delivered.


Were the Jews, Daniels people, delivered in 70 AD?

No.


JLB

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daniel 12:1-7 please note the exchange between the angels in verses 5-7, the resurrection (daniel 12:2) is one of the wonders spoken of in verse daniel 12:6.

and verse daniel 12:7 identifies when the wonder of the resurrection would occur and be fulfilled.

covenantal israel never experienced a time of trouble as ad70 with the end of mosaic covenant not even babylon equaled this apocalypse.

i am limited in how much i can elaborate on this forum only that most churches read apocalyptic literature far too literally.

please remember the ot is what the nt writers drew their inspiration from.

these passages are rife with idioms and hyperboles.

please compare isaiah 13:6-13; ezekiel 32:7-11 (what does verse 11 say again???); isaiah 34:4-5; joel 2:1-11; amos 5:18-22, 8:9 with the olivet discourse and revelation

same language same context

compare joel 2:1-11 with revelation 6:12-17?

same language same context

likewise the resurrection is not dealing with our long dead physical bodies that have decayed and disintegrated into atoms and nothingness but our eternal resurrection from eternal separation from god, out of sheol.

random person said:

likewise the resurrection is not dealing with our long dead physical bodies that have decayed and disintegrated into atoms and nothingness but our eternal resurrection from eternal separation from god, out of sheol.

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Those who are Christ's go to heaven when they die, that is to say, when their body dies.

Their body is buried in the ground, the dust of the earth.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2

The resurrection of the dead, refers to the physical body.

"Soul sleep" is a man made doctrine not found in the bible.


JLB

JLB777 said:

Those who are Christ's go to heaven when they die, that is to say, when their body dies.

Their body is buried in the ground, the dust of the earth.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2

The resurrection of the dead, refers to the physical body.

"Soul sleep" is a man made doctrine not found in the bible.


JLB

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i am not promoting soul sleep.

i am speaking about adam died a spiritual death / sin-death and separation from god not a physical death the DAY he was expelled from the garden. 1st century christians and old testament saints were raised up from sheol but will never be raised from their literal graves. today christians will never see or experience sheol. flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of god. plain and simple. there will be no marriages because we will be made like angels.

not of this world jlb777. not of this world. read the bible verses beneath my avatar. flesh and blood and this earth are just a transitory status for christians. 1 peter 1:4.

random person said:

i am speaking about adam died a spiritual death / sin-death and separation from god not a physical death the DAY he was expelled from the garden.

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Agreed.

random person said:

1st century christians and old testament saints were raised up from sheol but will never be raised from their literal graves.

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Be careful with this, though I agree that their bodies were not raised from their graves, as resurrected bodies from the dead, but they did come out of their graves and tombs, even though the word says "bodies"...


and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:52-53


Raised and resurrection are similar [1454 & 1453] but are none the less different.

Bodies, does not necessarily mean physical body, especially in this case.


The resurrection from the dead will take place for all at the same time... at His Coming.


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23



JLB

JLB777 said:

Agreed.




Be careful with this, though I agree that their bodies were not raised from their graves, as resurrected bodies from the dead, but they did come out of their graves and tombs, even though the word says "bodies"...


and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:52-53


Raised and resurrection are similar [1454 & 1453] but are none the less different.

Bodies, does not necessarily mean physical body, especially in this case.


The resurrection from the dead will take place for all at the same time... at His Coming.


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23



JLB

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the law can not pass away until all of it is fulfilled which includes the final days of natural israel (song of moses) and the promise of the resurrection to natural israel (daniel 12:2, acts of the apostles 24:14-15, acts of the apostles 26:6-8) - the hope of israel

see matthew 5:17-18

no one can enter the holiest of holies while the first tabernacle stands hebrews 9:8

not even the first century martyrs revelation 6:9-11 & revelation 15:8

they entered holiest of holies revelation 20:4 after final days of israel (song of moses revelation 15:3) and the resurrection is fulfilled (daniel 12:2-7)

matthew 24:34 & luke 21:32 & daniel 12:7