Some reasons why cessationism has become a dead worldview

Extraneous · Feb 10, 2016

Hillsage said:
You asked my opinion and I gave you that. I do not speak for any group, though I consider myself as mostly charismatic. But scripture is pretty plain that the walk/works of all will be judged. And the judgment of your walk includes multiple baptisms as one progresses in God. Repentance and water baptism are two. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is three. And NO!...all charismatics don't believe 'that' either.

I cannot understand why people follow charismatics. They recite scripture about how Gods people will heal the sick and cast out demons...but they leave out the part where they also drink poison and handle deadly snakes without dying. Those are actually not signs of the believer anyway, in my opinion. Love is the sign of the believer, not miracles.

John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Show me a healer who can drink poison and i might accept that hes an apostle. Till then i'll need t beware of them because of their preaching which seems to lack discernment.

mikedsjr · Feb 10, 2016

Hillsage said:
You asked my opinion and I gave you that. I do not speak for any group, though I consider myself as mostly charismatic. But scripture is pretty plain that the walk/works of all will be judged. And the judgment of your walk includes multiple baptisms as one progresses in God. Repentance and water baptism are two. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is three. And NO!...all charismatics don't believe 'that' either.

Yes, thank you. I did ask for your opinion.

Hillsage · Feb 10, 2016

Extraneous said:
I cannot understand why people follow charismatics.

For the same reason they'd follow Baptists and Methodists...they're dumb sheep. Nobody should be following any denomination, including the Charismatic. They ought to be following the Holy Spirit and Jesus according to scripture.

They recite scripture about how Gods people will heal the sick and cast out demons...but they leave out the part where they also drink poison and handle deadly snakes without dying.

Do you even know how to discern a "snake" or its "venom" from the bibles spiritual perspective? I'm going to assume not, so how about meditating on these two verses for example;

GEN 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. 17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path,

ISA 59:4 No one sues righteously and no one pleads honestly. They trust in confusion and speak lies; They conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity. 5 They hatch adders' eggs and weave the spider's web; He who eats of their eggs dies....

And while you are so sure we're all stupid, is it not you who also thinks scripture is talking about real snakes and scorpions? And in believing so, don't you really prove that it is you, who is equally as deceived as those who do handle rattlesnakes based upon their non spiritual understanding? An understanding which appears equal to yours?

LUK 10:19 "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

Tell me, does this not give you the authority to hit the sand hills and go snake and scorpion stomping? It does not speak that to me, but I am certainly willing to listen to your instruction on this matter first. Then, if you haven't embarrassed me too much with your spiritual brilliance, I might tell you how I interpret it.

Show me a healer who can drink poison and i might accept that hes an apostle.

Instead, show me a verse to support such a foolish caveat for an 'apostle'.

Till then i'll need t beware of them because of their preaching which seems to lack discernment.

I honestly don't know if I should laugh at you or cry for you. Pray, probably usurps both those options.

Extraneous · Feb 10, 2016

Hillsage said:
For the same reason they'd follow Baptists and Methodists...they're dumb sheep. Nobody should be following any denomination, including the Charismatic. They ought to be following the Holy Spirit and Jesus according to scripture.

Do you even know how to discern a "snake" or its "venom" from the bibles spiritual perspective? I'm going to assume not, so how about meditating on these two verses for example;

GEN 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. 17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path,

ISA 59:4 No one sues righteously and no one pleads honestly. They trust in confusion and speak lies; They conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity. 5 They hatch adders' eggs and weave the spider's web; He who eats of their eggs dies....

And while you are so sure we're all stupid, is it not you who also thinks scripture is talking about real snakes and scorpions? And in believing so, don't you really prove that it is you, who is equally as deceived as those who do handle rattlesnakes based upon their non spiritual understanding? An understanding which appears equal to yours?

LUK 10:19 "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

Tell me, does this not give you the authority to hit the sand hills and go snake and scorpion stomping? It does not speak that to me, but I am certainly willing to listen to your instruction on this matter first. Then, if you haven't embarrassed me too much with your spiritual brilliance, I might tell you how I interpret it.

Instead, show me a verse to support such a foolish caveat for an 'apostle'.

I honestly don't know if I should laugh at you or cry for you. Pray, probably usurps both those options.

Thank you, i'll meditate on that, after i read it more closely. However, my point was not about the spiritual meaning of Mark 16:18 verses a natural interpretation.. I was judging the matter according to the context of their interpretation.

Biblicist · Feb 10, 2016

mikedsjr said:
Biblicist, what qualifications govern a congregation as saved or has the Spirit?

That's a fair question as you could easily presume that I hold to the classic-Pentecostal viewpoint that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is subsequent to our first being sealed with the Holy Spirit at conversion. Over the last few years I have changed from the classic understanding (I was essentially raised with it) to where I now understand that all Christians have been Baptised in the Holy Spirit, whether they speak in tongues or not; but why anyone would not want to be able to praise the Father through the Holy Spirit has me at a bit of a loss!

This means that even a quasi-cessationist is Born Again if they have confessed Jesus as their Lord and repented of their sin where they then receive the Holy Spirit as a downpayment of our future Resurrection.

This means that if a sizable proportion (as to how many?) of church members of a given congregation are Born Again, then the assembly can be deemed to be a spiritual Body in Christ.

Biblicist · Feb 10, 2016

Extraneous said:
I cannot understand why people follow charismatics. They recite scripture about how Gods people will heal the sick and cast out demons...but they leave out the part where they also drink poison and handle deadly snakes without dying. Those are actually not signs of the believer anyway, in my opinion. Love is the sign of the believer, not miracles.

John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Show me a healer who can drink poison and i might accept that hes an apostle. Till then i'll need t beware of them because of their preaching which seems to lack discernment.

I can asure you that this Pentecostal regularly refers to how "some will be able to drink poison and handle deadly snakes" where Paul himself is a good example of this. With Mark 16:18 Jesus was not saying that if anyone chooses to drink poison or pick up a deadly snakes that they will be okay, but that these types of things will occurr within the broader Body of Christ.

People frequently confuse the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-10) with signs & wonders, where the Holy Spirit is the agent of the Spiritual manifestatations and the Father himself is the agent of those things that we deem to be signs & wonders which I addressed earlier on in this thread - a very common mistake, one that even many Pentecostals and charismatics still make.

When it comes to (forcibly) drinking poison or picking up dangerous snakes etc, it will be the Father who chooses to intercede on these things and I would expect to see these things happening within Greenfield areas that were in the process of being evangelised.

Extraneous · Feb 10, 2016

Biblicist said:
I can asure you that this Pentecostal regularly refers to how "some will be able to drink poison and handle deadly snakes" where Paul himself is a good example of this. With Mark 16:18 Jesus was not saying that if anyone chooses to drink poison or pick up a deadly snakes that they will be okay, but that these types of things will occurr within the broader Body of Christ.

People frequently confuse the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-10) with signs & wonders, where the Holy Spirit is the agent of the Spiritual manifestatations and the Father himself is the agent of those things that we deem to be signs & wonders which I addressed earlier on in this thread - a very common mistake, one that even many Pentecostals and charismatics still make.

When it comes to (forcibly) drinking poison or picking up dangerous snakes etc, it will be the Father who chooses to intercede on these things and I would expect to see these things happening within Greenfield areas that were in the process of being evangelised.

We'll need to agree to disagree then.

Biblicist · Feb 10, 2016

Extraneous said:
We'll need to agree to disagree then.

To be sure to be sure . . . that's okay indeed!

swordsman1 · Feb 11, 2016

Hillsage said:
Do you even know how to discern a "snake" or its "venom" from the bibles spiritual perspective? I'm going to assume not, so how about meditating on these two verses for example;

GEN 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. 17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path,

ISA 59:4 No one sues righteously and no one pleads honestly. They trust in confusion and speak lies; They conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity. 5 They hatch adders' eggs and weave the spider's web; He who eats of their eggs dies....

And while you are so sure we're all stupid, is it not you who also thinks scripture is talking about real snakes and scorpions? And in believing so, don't you really prove that it is you, who is equally as deceived as those who do handle rattlesnakes based upon their non spiritual understanding? An understanding which appears equal to yours?

LUK 10:19 "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

Tell me, does this not give you the authority to hit the sand hills and go snake and scorpion stomping? It does not speak that to me, but I am certainly willing to listen to your instruction on this matter first. Then, if you haven't embarrassed me too much with your spiritual brilliance, I might tell you how I interpret it.

So being bitten by deadly snakes and drinking poisons or are not meant to be taken literally but only have a figurative spiritual meaning? If that is the case then speaking in new tongues, and casting out demons must also be spiritualized and not taken literally. They are all part of the same list. You can't just pick and chose which ones to take literally and which ones not to. Either they are are all literal or they are all spiritualized. Either they are all normative for today, or they were all normative only in the apostolic age.

The same mistake is made in 1 Cor 13:1-3 where there are 5 parallel figurative statements. Charismatics and pentecostals arbitarily choose one of them to be literal (speaking the tongues of angels), ignoring the fact that the other 4 are clearly figurative.

mikedsjr · Feb 11, 2016

The long ending of Mark is not found in the oldest manuscripts and thus deemed not part of the autograph. So arguing over snakes and poison is like arguing over Flying Spaghetti Monster or argue with a KJVonllyist. No point

Extraneous · Feb 11, 2016

mikedsjr said:
The long ending of Mark is not found in the oldest manuscripts and thus deemed not part of the autograph. So arguing over snakes and poison is like arguing over Flying Spaghetti Monster or argue with a KJVonllyist. No point

Keep in mind who is arguing that scripture. Not me. I only pointed out the contradiction in how its interpreted by those who do argue using that scripture.

mikedsjr · Feb 11, 2016

Extraneous said:
Keep in mind who is arguing that scripture. Not me. I only pointed out the contradiction in how its interpreted by those who do argue using that scripture.

Thanks for clarity on your part.

Hillsage · Feb 11, 2016

swordsman1 said:
So being bitten by deadly snakes and drinking poisons or are not meant to be taken literally but only have a figurative spiritual meaning?

My position is a spiritual one. If you want to make Mark 16 literal then argue your point with the other two who are saying it shouldn't even be in the bible. Either way doesn't bother me, because my spiritual position on Mark is fine IMO. Just as dealing with "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers," in the religious realm today has forced me to "be wise as a serpent" to deal with the newest "O generation of vipers". So when the Holy Spirit tells me;
"I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy:" I try to learn what is not known...spiritually speaking, that is. But if you want to go literal snake stomping with Extraneous and Mikedsjr and apparently Biblicist (sorry B) you go right ahead. But my walk has taught me "serpent/scorpion" lessons I suspect none of you know.

If that is the case then speaking in new tongues, and casting out demons must also be spiritualized and not taken literally. They are all part of the same list. You can't just pick and chose which ones to take literally and which ones not to.

And your 'authority' for such a comment is?????
But, for the record, I've already established that I'm spiritualizing the whole list. So, "casting out demons, tongues, serpents, poison, laying on hands" have ALL had a spiritual application in my Christian walk.

Either they are are all literal or they are all spiritualized. Either they are all normative for today, or they were all normative only in the apostolic age.

Talk is cheap, so I'll ask again for your authority.

The same mistake is made in 1 Cor 13:1-3 where there are 5 parallel figurative statements. Charismatics and pentecostals arbitarily choose one of them to be literal (speaking the tongues of angels), ignoring the fact that the other 4 are clearly figurative.

Oh, so now you're going to tell me you can move a "mountain" in the Rockies? No, wait you know you can't do that, but you 'know' someone who has....right? Or could it be you don't know the spiritual symbolism of a "high mountain" where you can see "all the kingdoms of the world". Lets see, would you vote for Everest there my friend? Probably would have to, along with believing in the 'flat earth society'. Me, I know the spiritual application of "mountain" in those verses...and you apparently understand the literal application of sounding like "sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal".

Biblicist · Feb 12, 2016

swordsman1 said:
The same mistake is made in 1 Cor 13:1-3 where there are 5 parallel figurative statements. Charismatics and pentecostals arbitarily choose one of them to be literal (speaking the tongues of angels), ignoring the fact that the other 4 are clearly figurative.

Even though we've gone over this point at the beginning of this particular thread, it would undoubtedly be beneficial to touch on it again for those who have not read those particular posts. Even though we regularly hear sources making refernece to 1Cor 13:1-3 as being either hyperbole or as you say "figurative speech", I am of the opinion that this has arisen not so much as the result of careful exegesis but more with a need to defend a rationalist worldview.

As for your claim that Continuists supposedly "arbitarily choose one of them to be literal", how can we be choosing one when there are 9 related points which are all factual?

1 Cor 13:1-3
Does Paul;

1. Speak in human tongues (i.e., Aramaic, Greek, Latin) – Yes
2. Speak in an inarticulate angelic tongue – Yes [see 1 Cor 14:18]
3. Have the ability to prophesy – Yes
4. Understand all (knowable) mysteries as it relates to the Gospel – Yes [see 1Cor 2:7; 4:1]
5. Have all (knowable) knowledge as it relates to the Gospel – Yes
6. Have a faith that can move specific mountains (insurmountable obstacles) – Yes
7. Continually give away his worldly possessions; Paul also had to work to survive – Yes
8. Emotionally given over his body either to ‘hardship’ or ‘to be burned’ – Yes
9. Would the mortal and finite creature Paul also lack love at times - Yes

I am of the opinion that the majority who say that they believe Paul's reference to being able to speak in angelic tongues is hyperbole; that deep down that they secretly realise that Paul is in fact making a direct reference to how tongues are always spoken by the Holy Spirit in angelic tongues.

Biblicist · Feb 12, 2016

Hillsage said:
But my walk has taught me "serpent/scorpion" lessons I suspect none of you know.

Interesting indeed!

swordsman1 · Feb 12, 2016

Biblicist said:
Even though we've gone over this point at the beginning of this particular thread, it would undoubtedly be beneficial to touch on it again for those who have not read those particular posts. Even though we regularly hear sources making refernece to 1Cor 13:1-3 as being either hyperbole or as you say "figurative speech", I am of the opinion that this has arisen not so much as the result of careful exegesis but more with a need to defend a rationalist worldview.

As for your claim that Continuists supposedly "arbitarily choose one of them to be literal", how can we be choosing one when there are 9 related points which are all factual?

1 Cor 13:1-3
Does Paul;

1. Speak in human tongues (i.e., Aramaic, Greek, Latin) – Yes
2. Speak in an inarticulate angelic tongue – Yes [see 1 Cor 14:18]
3. Have the ability to prophesy – Yes
4. Understand all (knowable) mysteries as it relates to the Gospel – Yes [see 1Cor 2:7; 4:1]
5. Have all (knowable) knowledge as it relates to the Gospel – Yes
6. Have a faith that can move specific mountains (insurmountable obstacles) – Yes
7. Continually give away his worldly possessions; Paul also had to work to survive – Yes
8. Emotionally given over his body either to ‘hardship’ or ‘to be burned’ – Yes
9. Would the mortal and finite creature Paul also lack love at times - Yes

I am of the opinion that the majority who say that they believe Paul's reference to being able to speak in angelic tongues is hyperbole; that deep down that they secretly realise that Paul is in fact making a direct reference to how tongues are always spoken by the Holy Spirit in angelic tongues.

No, it doesn't say those things. You are adding words to the passage that aren't there. It says:

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and
if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And
if I give all my possessions to feed the poor,
and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Did Paul literally know ALL mysteriies and ALL knowledge? ie Was he omniscient? - No
Did Paul literally remove mountains? - No
Did Paul literally give ALL his possessions to the poor? That would include his clothes. - No
Did Paul literally give his body to burned? - No
Did Paul literally speak in the language of angels? - No he didn't.

They are all hypothetical statements making the point that even if he had those spiritual gifts to the most superlative degree possible, but not have love, they are worthless.

Biblicist · Feb 12, 2016

swordsman1 said:
No, it doesn't say those things. You are adding words to the passage that aren't there. It says:

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and
if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And
if I give all my possessions to feed the poor,
and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

Did Paul literally know ALL mysteriies and ALL knowledge? ie Was he omniscient? - No
Did Paul literally remove mountains? - No
Did Paul literally give ALL his possessions to the poor? That would include his clothes. - No
Did Paul literally give his body to burned? - No
Did Paul literally speak in the language of angels? - No he didn't.

They are all hypothetical statements making the point that even if he had those spiritual gifts to the most superlative degree possible, but not have love, they are worthless.

Swordy, I've been trying to find an illusive article that says that Continuists believe that the earth is round . . . so to save me some time I guess that your immediate reply to such a claim would be "No, it's flat!".

Biblicist · Feb 12, 2016

Oops . . . a double post!

swordsman1 · Feb 12, 2016

Biblicist said:
Swordy, I've been trying to find an illusive article that says that Continuists believe that the earth is round . . . so to save me some time I guess that your immediate reply to such a claim would be "No, it's flat!".

You have it the wrong way round. Continuists assert the world is flat. Cessationists say "No, the world is round and here is the proof...."

Biblicist · Feb 12, 2016

swordsman1 said:
You have it the wrong way round. Continuists assert the world is flat. Cessationists say "No, the world is round and here is the proof...."

Swordy, you never fail to amaze me, I couldn't have hoped for a better reply - absolutely priceless!!

Even though I preceeded your reply with a hypothetical negative reply, there you go and do it for me immediately after my own . . . thankyou.

Some reasons why cessationism has become a dead worldview

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