Unpardonable sin debate

brotherjerry

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Not wanting to clutter up a thread in which someone quite honestly appeared to be seeking guidance I felt it best to start another thread for people to discuss the issue.

Here is the main divergence post:


I said:
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is rejecting the grace that God has offered....so the unpardonable sin is never accepting Christ in your life time.

nobodysfool said:

I'm sorry, but I must disagree with you on this. Here's why:


(20) Then he went home, and the crowd gathered again, so that they could not even eat. (21) And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, "He is out of his mind." (22) And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "by the prince of demons he casts out the demons."


(23) And he called them to him and said to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan? (24) If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. (25) And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. (26) And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end. (27) But no one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.


(28) "Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter, (29) but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"-- (30) for they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."



Mat 12:22-37 Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw. (23) And all the people were amazed, and said, "Can this be the Son of David?" (24) But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons."


(25) Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. (26) And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? (27) And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. (28) But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (29) Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. (30) Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. (31) Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. (32) And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.


These two passages make it very clear exactly what Jesus was saying, and what He meant. He was accused of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub, aka Satan. Jesus' response was pointed, direct, and certain. He identified blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as a sin which would never be forgiven. What was that blasphemy? Calling the power of the Holy Spirit to be the power of Satan.


That is not simple unbelief. The Pharisees knew what Jesus was doing, and by what power He was doing it. They themselves occasionally performed exorcisms, and none of them would have invoked the power of Satan to do so. So, they knew whose power it was, and they deliberately and knowingly said it was the power of Satan, as part of their desire to discredit Jesus.


That shows us several things: first, a person can speak against the Son of God, and it will be forgiven. Jesus said so. A person can speak against the Father, and it will be forgiven. But, if someone knowingly calls the power of the Holy Spirit to be the power of Satan, they will NEVER be forgiven. EVER. Jesus said so.


Now, for some reason, people want to turn the unforgivable sin into anything but what Jesus called it. They want to call it unbelief. And in the same breath they will argue that Jesus died for all the sins of all the people. Is unbelief a sin? Then Jesus died to pay its debt. If He did not die for the sin of unbelief, then He did not die for all sins.


Who is guilty of unbelief? Everyone who is not saved. If unbelief were the unforgivable sin, then no one could be saved, because they could never be forgiven of the unforgivable sin.


Jesus did not put conditions or limitations on the bounds of the unforgivable sin. He said the one who commits this sin will not be forgiven in this world, or the next. Period. Jesus identified exactly what this sin is: Attributing the power of the Holy Spirit to Satan. One cannot do so unless one knows the difference. Therefore an unsaved person cannot really commit this sin, because it is committed with knowledge of what one is doing and saying. The Pharisees knew
There is so much false teaching about this subject, and it doesn't even make sense. Jesus addressed this, and as I have shown, identified exactly what this sin was, and is. It is NOT rejecting Christ, for we all rejected Him before we received Him. It is not even rejecting the God's Grace via Holy Spirit, for we all resisted Him before we yielded to Him.

The unforgivable sin has always and only been to attribute the works and power of the Holy Spirit to Satan, to say that the works of the Holy Spirit were done by the power of Satan.

That action, which cannot be done in ignorance, is a one-way ticket to Hell.

Jas 1:2-4 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. But let endurance have its perfect work, that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing.

Be exalted, O God, above the heavens! Let your glory be over all the earth! (Psa 57:5)

We didn't believe in order to be born again, we were born again in order to believe.
 

brotherjerry

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Ok. So what you are saying is that if Joe Schmo was wrapped up into some cult, said that Jesus was not the son of God, the Holy Spirit is a hoax and that He (the Holy Spirit) was an agent of Satan, and Joe lived that life for say 10 years. But then Joe had an epiphany and realized he was wrong all those years. He realizes that Christianity is true...that Christ is the Son of God and the Messiah. What you are saying then is that Joe cannot be saved because his sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Does that not go against the idea of "new creature in Christ, old things are passed away"? Paul (then Saul) did not accept Christ as the Son of God, the Messiah. Did not believe that any miracles that Christ worked were from the Holy Spirit. Went out of his way to persecute Christians, putting them to death for heresy.

No matter what we do it can and will be forgiven by God when we accept the Holy Spirit. All our past sins are forgiven, no matter what they are.

It is because we are promised that all sins are forgiven that we interpret what Christ was saying here in that light. Luke 12 provides this insight as well right after the verse speaking of blasphemy.
Verse 11-12 "When they bring you before the synagogue and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say." Professing the life of Christ...even in name only...can bring you before the rulers and authorities of this world. If you have the Holy Spirit, then it will teach you and you should not worry. If you have rejected the Holy Spirit then you are using the name of Christ and the Holy Spirit in vain...which is a blasphemy.
 
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nobdysfool

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Ok. So what you are saying is that if Joe Schmo was wrapped up into some cult, said that Jesus was not the son of God, the Holy Spirit is a hoax and that He (the Holy Spirit) was an agent of Satan, and Joe lived that life for say 10 years. But then Joe had an epiphany and realized he was wrong all those years. He realizes that Christianity is true...that Christ is the Son of God and the Messiah. What you are saying then is that Joe cannot be saved because his sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

No, exactly the opposite. The Pharisees KNEW by what power Jesus cast out demons. Jesus knew that they knew, hence his question "by whom do your sons cast them out?" Examine the exchange very carefully. This sin can only be committed if one know what is happening. It doesn't happen very often today, but I fear for the well-meaning but uninformed Christians who claim that times of wonders and miracles are past, that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today, that speaking in tongues is of the devil, etc.

An unbeliever cannot commit this sin, because they do not even know the Holy Spirit, or how He works. The reason this particular sin is unforgivable, is because it is committed with full knowledge of what they are doing, intentionally saying that God's power is the Devil's power.

Does that not go against the idea of "new creature in Christ, old things are passed away"? Paul (then Saul) did not accept Christ as the Son of God, the Messiah. Did not believe that any miracles that Christ worked were from the Holy Spirit. Went out of his way to persecute Christians, putting them to death for heresy.

Proof that Saul did not commit this sin. He didn't know what he was fighting against. He obviously wasn't among the Pharisees which Jesus often tangled with.

No matter what we do it can and will be forgiven by God when we accept the Holy Spirit. All our past sins are forgiven, no matter what they are.

Very true, the likelihood of an unbeliever blaspheming the Holy Spirit is zero.

It is because we are promised that all sins are forgiven that we interpret what Christ was saying here in that light. Luke 12 provides this insight as well right after the verse speaking of blasphemy.
Verse 11-12 "When they bring you before the synagogue and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say." Professing the life of Christ...even in name only...can bring you before the rulers and authorities of this world. If you have the Holy Spirit, then it will teach you and you should not worry. If you have rejected the Holy Spirit then you are using the name of Christ and the Holy Spirit in vain...which is a blasphemy.

I think you're trying to construct a scenario that is very unlikely to occur. Jesus made it plain what the unforgivable sin was, and is. To try and make it into something else, or broaden its definition is going beyond what was written, and only serves to muddy the waters. Unbelief cannot be an unforgivable sin, or none of us could ever be saved, because we all lived in unbelief before we heard the gospel and received Christ. Let's not add to what Jesus said. Why not let Jesus' own words define it, and inform us how it can be committed, so that we are forewarned and prepared to avoid it? He made it very plain. Let's just stick with that, shall we?
 
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brotherjerry

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Ok you said a couple of key things here.

An unbeliever cannot commit this sin

I will presume that by "unbeliever" we are referring to someone who is saved. If an unbeliever commits this sin and then becomes a believer, that sin is forgiven. This nullifies the idea that it is an unforgiveable sin.
See the key in this when put into the context of the rest of the Bible and the Gospel message is the point of acceptance of the Grace of God. If in our earthly life we do not accept the gift of salvation, then none of our sins are forgiven. At that point all of our sins become unforgiveable....because there is no second chances. But if we do come to the saving glory of God and accept Christ as our Savior, then all of our sins have been forgiven, no matter what they are. The forgiveness of all of our sins nullifies the idea that there is a sin that is unforgivable...that there is one act that man can do that cannot be forgiven is contrary to what the rest of the Bible teaches. If Aleister Crowly (founder of modern day Church of Satan) on his death bed were to have rejected his previous belief and come to the saving faith that is in Jesus Christ, then all of his blasphemy against God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would have been forgiven.

I think it is exactly the conversion of Saul that we see that all sins are forgiven. Paul describes himself prior to his conversion as a "extremely zealous", a "Hebrew among Hebrews", and most of all a Pharisee. Paul says that he lived that way from his childhood (Acts 26), "conformed to the strictest sect of our religion." I find it difficult to believe that Saul, whose chief mission as he himself said was "to persecute the church of God and tried to destroy it" (Galatians 1), that you would claim that he never resorted to the tactics the other Pharisees may have in saying Christ's power, or the Disciples power, came from unclean spirits. Instead it is because Saul was the worse of the worse...he used every tactic in the book to "destroy" the church and the work Christ had done, that his story shows that any and every sin a person could commit in their lifetime can be forgiven.

Unbelief cannot be an unforgivable sin,
I did not say unbelief could not be forgiven...I was saying that rejection of the Holy Spirit which equates to rejection of the gift of salvation is the unforgivable sin.

Let's just stick with that, shall we?
But what you are saying He said actually serves no purpose.
You agree that a saved person has zero chance of blaspheming as you have defined it, correct? So what you are saying cannot happen to a saved person. So then you are saying Jesus said this for no reason.
An unsaved person can blaspheme the Holy Spirit some time in their life and then later come to the saving faith and accept Christ and become saved and all sins, including the blaspheme will be forgiven. Which if you agree with that, then the statement of blaspheme being unforgiveable is incorrect. So again Jesus said this for no reason.
Alone these verses collide with the context of the rest of the Gospel message..because the rest of the message says that all sins are forgiven.

See blasphemy is not limited to the idea of insulting or denying something. Blasphemy is also the act of claiming the attributes of God. So to claim to be a follower of Christ, to claim to have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, when in fact you don't is a blasphemy. And this is going on quite frequently today, there are millions filling the pews claiming to have the Spirit, but are actually dead inside. Jesus warns us of these elsewhere in Matthew 7 "did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness' ". There are entire channels on cable TV that are filled with people like this. Sadly some of the largest churches in this country are led by people like this. They are leading many down a broad path to destruction.
 
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nobdysfool

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Ok you said a couple of key things here.



I will presume that by "unbeliever" we are referring to someone who is saved. If an unbeliever commits this sin and then becomes a believer, that sin is forgiven. This nullifies the idea that it is an unforgiveable sin.

You are missing some things here. First, how can a saved person be an unbeliever?? That makes absolutely no sense.
What I have said is that no one can commit this sin in ignorance. The Pharisees knew what they were doing, and Jesus called them on it.


See the key in this when put into the context of the rest of the Bible and the Gospel message is the point of acceptance of the Grace of God. If in our earthly life we do not accept the gift of salvation, then none of our sins are forgiven. At that point all of our sins become unforgiveable....because there is no second chances. But if we do come to the saving glory of God and accept Christ as our Savior, then all of our sins have been forgiven, no matter what they are. The forgiveness of all of our sins nullifies the idea that there is a sin that is unforgivable...that there is one act that man can do that cannot be forgiven is contrary to what the rest of the Bible teaches.

Take it up with Jesus. He clearly and specifically said that there is one sin that never will be forgiven. Not in this world, or the next. Therefore there is one unforgivable sin here and now. Jesus was very clear as to what that sin is, and it is to say that God's works are done through satan's power. Those who were saying that knew full well whose power was at work, as Jesus pointed out (If i cast out Satan by Satan, by whom do your sons cast them out?)

If Aleister Crowly (founder of modern day Church of Satan) on his death bed were to have rejected his previous belief and come to the saving faith that is in Jesus Christ, then all of his blasphemy against God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would have been forgiven.

Did Crowley commit the unpardonable sin? I don't know, and neither do you. Jesus said all manner of blasphemy against the Father and the Son could be forgiven.

I think it is exactly the conversion of Saul that we see that all sins are forgiven. Paul describes himself prior to his conversion as a "extremely zealous", a "Hebrew among Hebrews", and most of all a Pharisee. Paul says that he lived that way from his childhood (Acts 26), "conformed to the strictest sect of our religion." I find it difficult to believe that Saul, whose chief mission as he himself said was "to persecute the church of God and tried to destroy it" (Galatians 1), that you would claim that he never resorted to the tactics the other Pharisees may have in saying Christ's power, or the Disciples power, came from unclean spirits. Instead it is because Saul was the worse of the worse...he used every tactic in the book to "destroy" the church and the work Christ had done, that his story shows that any and every sin a person could commit in their lifetime can be forgiven.

No one is arguing against that. Of course a person, an unbeliever, can have all his sins forgiven IF he comes to Christ in faith and repentance. That's not the issue here.


I did not say unbelief could not be forgiven...I was saying that rejection of the Holy Spirit which equates to rejection of the gift of salvation is the unforgivable sin.

But that definition does not reflect what Jesus Himself said.

But what you are saying He said actually serves no purpose.

Not at all. It serves a great purpose, showing that even God has a point beyond which, if a person goes, He will not do anything more to save them or to forgive their sin. Several times God has said something similar to this in Scripture.


You agree that a saved person has zero chance of blaspheming as you have defined it, correct? So what you are saying cannot happen to a saved person. So then you are saying Jesus said this for no reason.

Then why are those two passages in the Bible? What I am saying, to more clearly define it, is that no saved person, walking in their salvation i.e. in right standing with God, will commit this sin, of saying that God does His works by the power of satan.

An unsaved person can blaspheme the Holy Spirit some time in their life and then later come to the saving faith and accept Christ and become saved and all sins, including the blaspheme will be forgiven. Which if you agree with that, then the statement of blaspheme being unforgiveable is incorrect. So again Jesus said this for no reason.
Alone these verses collide with the context of the rest of the Gospel message..because the rest of the message says that all sins are forgiven.

Then rip them out of your bible, if they offend you that much. Just remember the warnings about adding to and taking away from the words of this book. You are working from an indistinct and overly broad definition of blasphemy, and you're trying to find some way to negate the very words of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and Son of God. That is a dangerous path to take.

There are certain conditions that must be in place for the unforgivable sin to be in play. One is that they must know that it is the power of God in manifestation. Another is that they are not in right standing with God. Another is that they wish to insult the Holy Spirit by calling Him unclean, i.e. utilizing satan's power to do what he is doing.

You really have not studied these passages in depth, have you?

See blasphemy is not limited to the idea of insulting or denying something. Blasphemy is also the act of claiming the attributes of God. So to claim to be a follower of Christ, to claim to have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, when in fact you don't is a blasphemy. And this is going on quite frequently today, there are millions filling the pews claiming to have the Spirit, but are actually dead inside. Jesus warns us of these elsewhere in Matthew 7 "did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness' ". There are entire channels on cable TV that are filled with people like this. Sadly some of the largest churches in this country are led by people like this. They are leading many down a broad path to destruction.

Please stick to what Jesus said, in the context in which He said it. You're trying to find wider application where none is warranted. Quite frankly, you are overthinking this whole subject. Far too many people seem to be doing the same thing. Stop trying to make Jesus' words of no effect. Jesus said clearly what He meant, and clearly meant what He said. Accept it at face value, in the context in which it was said, and move on.
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nobdysfool

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Well, it appears that no further discussion on this topic will be happening. Sad, because there is so much false information, and twisting of meanings in this topic. As well as confusion of what this sin actually is. It is not unbelief, and it does not refer to the state of those who have died, where their fate is set in stone, with no further opportunity to repent.

ALL sin is unforgivable AFTER one dies. Forgiveness is offered during this life only. And only those who avail themselves of God's gift of His Son will partake of it, and avoid hellfire. AFTER physical death, there is no forgiveness for ANY sin. In this life, there is forgiveness for all sins except this one, that of attributing the power of the Holy
Spirit to Satan. It is a sin that is committed deliberately, not accidentally.

Look at the Scriptural account and see how Jesus dealt with it. He was very specific, and actually pronounced judgment on the Pharisees at that moment.
 
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brotherjerry

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You are missing some things here. First, how can a saved person be an unbeliever?? That makes absolutely no sense.
My bad...meant to say "unsaved" instead of "saved"

Take it up with Jesus. He clearly and specifically said that there is one sin that never will be forgiven.
Do we ever see an exception to the forgiveness of sins in the OT? Nope. So why do you think there is an exception now? Christ also taught many messages speaking of the forgiveness of sins...He did not say "most sins"

No one is arguing against that. Of course a person, an unbeliever, can have all his sins forgiven IF he comes to Christ in faith and repentance. That's not the issue here
That is exactly what you are arguing....you cannot use the word "all" if there is an exception...because then it is no longer all. You simply cannot say that "all sins are forgiven" if there is one that is not. And the Bible repeatedly refers to all sins being forgiven. So you have to look at this one verse in light of the rest of the teachings of the Bible.

Not at all. It serves a great purpose, showing that even God has a point beyond which, if a person goes, He will not do anything more to save them or to forgive their sin. Several times God has said something similar to this in Scripture.
God always left an option. God removed His presence from people, let them go about their own ways, but if they did turn back to him...if there was repentance for what they did, God took them back. Israel stumbled many many many many times....the entire Old Testament is a book of failure in reality...the failure of man to love God first.

There are certain conditions that must be in place for the unforgivable sin to be in play. One is that they must know that it is the power of God in manifestation. Another is that they are not in right standing with God. Another is that they wish to insult the Holy Spirit by calling Him unclean, i.e. utilizing satan's power to do what he is doing

I started to write up some stuff in regards to this and then remembered I had run across an article online about this very thing a while back and had to sift through my history to find it....should have bookmarked it :)

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/unpardonablesin.html
 
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nobdysfool

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My bad...meant to say "unsaved" instead of "saved"


Do we ever see an exception to the forgiveness of sins in the OT? Nope. So why do you think there is an exception now? Christ also taught many messages speaking of the forgiveness of sins...He did not say "most sins"


That is exactly what you are arguing....you cannot use the word "all" if there is an exception...because then it is no longer all. You simply cannot say that "all sins are forgiven" if there is one that is not. And the Bible repeatedly refers to all sins being forgiven. So you have to look at this one verse in light of the rest of the teachings of the Bible.


God always left an option. God removed His presence from people, let them go about their own ways, but if they did turn back to him...if there was repentance for what they did, God took them back. Israel stumbled many many many many times....the entire Old Testament is a book of failure in reality...the failure of man to love God first.



I started to write up some stuff in regards to this and then remembered I had run across an article online about this very thing a while back and had to sift through my history to find it....should have bookmarked it :)

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/unpardonablesin.html


I read through that article, and my overall impression is that it attempts to blunt the force of Christ's own words, and the situation in which they were uttered, and tries to expand the subject beyond the context. I still believe that Jesus meant what He said, and said what He meant: to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to attribute the power of God to an unclean spirit, that of Satan. That is precisely what He said, and what He meant. He was not talking of any other sin. He even said that one could speak against the Father and the Son, and it could be forgiven. But, He said to speak against the Holy Spirit in this particular way, to call His Power the power of an unclean spirit, was to cross a line that could not be erased.
 
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brotherjerry

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But then you also ignore what was said as well. For in Mark 3 it says Christ said this because the Pharisees were saying "He (Christ) has an unclean spirit"
Without that specific line you do not even have your hypothesis to stand on. And that one specific line is in reference to Christ. It is not the works of God, it is not you or I having an unclean Spirit...it is Christ. So in the context of the verses you or I cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit because we were not there to say that Christ had an unclean spirit.

So for you to claim that this is reference to attributing the power of God to Satan, is applying an extension that is not even mentioned. It is an extension for you to think that if I were to cast out a demon and someone said it was by the power of Satan that I did it, that that person would be committing blaspheme against the Holy Spirit...because no where does it extend the person beyond Christ to the disciples. Nor do we ever hear any of the disciples rebuking anyone while they performed miracles, for claiming they were drunk or any other example of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It is only when applied to the subject of Christ. And only Christ's contemporaries are able to do that.

You can disagree with it all you want...but this is what fits into the Bible and does not conflict with the multitude of verses that explain that ALL sins can be forgiven. In your situation, there is exceptions and not ALL sins are forgiven.
 
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Matthew 12:31
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

#1. The word "blasphemy" was never used as in reference to unbelief. The word "blasphemy" has always meant in reference to speak bad words against the Lord. Just do a study on this word and it will become obvious.

#2. The Pharisees (unbelievers) committed the unforgivable sin by the very words they said to Jesus (See Matthew 12:24).
These were not words exclusively about expressing unbelief alone on their part but they were words of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

#3. In Matthew 12:32, the unforgivable sin is not only unforgivable in this life, but it is a sin that is unforgivable in the life to come (i.e. the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ). So if you believe that the unforgivable sin is talking about rejecting Christ and not about blaspheming the Holy Spirit (i.e. speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost), then you must believe there will be unbelievers in the Millennium. But how can that be? Jesus will be living and reigning in the Millennium.


...
 
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There are also other unforgivable sins, too.

1. Taking the Mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-10).
2. Suicide (self murder) and not coming back to life to repent of it (1 John 3:15) (1 Corinthians 3:17).
3. Rejecting Jesus as one's Savior after one has had the Holy Ghost and the gifts thereof (Hebrews 6:4-6).


....
 
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brotherjerry

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Jason again you miss the mark on some points.

Your Point #1 in which blasphemy was "always meant in reference to speak" is incorrect.
Ezekiel 20:27 'Therefore, son of man, speak to the house of Israel and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God, "Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed Me by acting treacherously against Me."
We see again that Blasphemy is more than just saying words. It is more than saying the power of something is from the devil instead of God. It is denying God, in this case it is actively working against God.

In John 10:33 the Jews also described what blasphemy was when they claimed Jesus was blaspheming "because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Point #2. The commited blasphemy not by their words, but by their actions which showed where their heart was. Doing a word study on blasphemy throughout the Bible you will find that Blasphemy encompasses way more than just words. It is a matter of the heart, just as everything in the Bible is a heart problem not an action problem...actions are just outward representations of what is in the heart.

In 2 Kings 19 we see that blaspheming of the Lord is to basically deny God. Deny God's power, deny God's mercy, deny God's grace. This instance is basically repeated in Isaiah 37. These verses speak of the king raging against God, imagry of not just words but of actions because we are told what the king did. And it was all called blasphemy against God.

And #3...you make links not presented. Because Christ says you will not be forgiven in this life or the next age is simply that...there are no second chances. It is a big leap for you to try and draw a conclusion that one would believe what you said. Christ simply stated that there is more to this world than the life we live here and now...if you ignore Christ now...there will be no later for you to change your mind and receive forgiveness.

Your list of other unforgivable sins.
1) Does not say that it could not be forgiven does it? I did not see that anywhere in that verse. You are adding to it something that is not there. If a person takes the mark of the beast and then repents. The Bible says all their sins will be forgiven...it does not say "some" or "most".
2) Suicide...again you are defining things to fit what you want them to say. First you have to define suicide as murder. The Bible actually refers to murder as one person taking another person's life...so self is not included in that definition actually.
3) You completely got Hebrews 6 wrong. Hebrews 6 is in reference to who? OH YEA THE HEBREWS! This is to Jewish converts and is speaking about the Jews at this time. They had the good life when God was with them, before they rejected the Messiah. They tasted the heavenly gift. For them now they wait for the Messiah, which would mean to crucify Him again...which is not going to happen.

If you were to apply these verses to Christians, you have to believe in losing salvation. And that once it is lost, it can never be regained because in order to be regained, you would have to sacrifice Christ all over again. And this is not taught anywhere in the Bible or even by most conditional security proponents.

It is also important to note when studying blasphemy that it is not just the Holy Spirit that is cause for death.
Leviticus 24:16 Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death"

Blaspheming the Name of the Lord was cause for death.

So again if we are to understand the actions of blasphemy as being cause for death. In the OT the Holy Spirit was not an indwelling spirit. It was imparted to people but never imbued to people. Any action by the Holy Spirit under the old Covenant was temporary actions. So salvation was directly given through God. Under the new covenant the authority to grant salvation was given to Christ, by the imbuement of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit lives in us now. Blasphemy focus did not shift however, it stayed on the bearer of salvation. From God the Father to the Holy Spirit...if you reject God's grace and His offer of salvation in this life, you will never be forgiven even in the next life.

Paul says he was a blasphemer as well. 1 Timothy 1:13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief.
Paul's own testimony expresses blasphemy as actions from unbelief.

Jesus' own words in Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with Me is against Me..." So even if you are not a violent aggressor such as Paul was before being shown mercy, if you are not saved then you are against Christ. So if you are against Christ as a passive unbeliever, you too can be considered blaspheming the bringer of salvation...the Holy Spirit.
 
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Jason again you miss the mark on some points.

Your Point #1 in which blasphemy was "always meant in reference to speak" is incorrect.
Ezekiel 20:27 'Therefore, son of man, speak to the house of Israel and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God, "Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed Me by acting treacherously against Me."

No. This is called putting in place something that we are familar with (blaspheming) and comparing it to treacherous acts. It is an analogy and not a definition. For the word "blasphemed" has not changed in Ezekiel 20:27. It still means to speak inappropriately of the Lord or it is about insulting God. But the Lord is saying in Ezekiel 20:27 that their evil actions is LIKE blasphemy. Ezekiel 20:27 is not defining blasphemy for us or giving us a new definition for it. Blasphemy still means blasphemy.

You will have to find a place in the Bible where the word "blasphemy" is exchanged for doing evil things.

We see again that Blasphemy is more than just saying words. It is more than saying the power of something is from the devil instead of God. It is denying God, in this case it is actively working against God.

In John 10:33 the Jews also described what blasphemy was when they claimed Jesus was blaspheming "because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Actually, if Jesus was not God, then they would be correct in their charge against Jesus. For no man can claim that he is God without insulting the Lord. But Jesus had the right to make the claim that He was God.

Point #2. The commited blasphemy not by their words, but by their actions which showed where their heart was. Doing a word study on blasphemy throughout the Bible you will find that Blasphemy encompasses way more than just words. It is a matter of the heart, just as everything in the Bible is a heart problem not an action problem...actions are just outward representations of what is in the heart.

In 2 Kings 19 we see that blaspheming of the Lord is to basically deny God. Deny God's power, deny God's mercy, deny God's grace. This instance is basically repeated in Isaiah 37. These verses speak of the king raging against God, imagry of not just words but of actions because we are told what the king did. And it was all called blasphemy against God.

Read 2 Kings 19 a little more closely. In verse 4 it says this,

"But perhaps the Lord your God has heard the Assyrian chief of staff, sent by the king to defy the living God, and will punish him for his words. Oh, pray for those of us who are left!” (2 Kings 19:4 NLT); And Isaiah 37 is a repeat of the same thing in 2 Kings 19 as I am sure you know.

And #3...you make links not presented. Because Christ says you will not be forgiven in this life or the next age is simply that...there are no second chances. It is a big leap for you to try and draw a conclusion that one would believe what you said. Christ simply stated that there is more to this world than the life we live here and now...if you ignore Christ now...there will be no later for you to change your mind and receive forgiveness.

No. Matthew 12:32 says in the world to come you will also not be forgiven. The spirit world is not a world that is coming. The spiritual kingdom of God exists now. The world to come is the Millennium. To interpret that any other way is a gross interpretation of what it is plainly saying.

Your list of other unforgivable sins.
1) Does not say that it could not be forgiven does it? I did not see that anywhere in that verse. You are adding to it something that is not there. If a person takes the mark of the beast and then repents. The Bible says all their sins will be forgiven...it does not say "some" or "most".

There is only one outcome or conclusion to those who take the Mark of the Beast in Revelation 14. They will receive the Wrath of God and they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Also, Scripture says,

Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.(Revelation 20:4)

The Mark of the Beast is something to Overcome…

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.(Revelation 15:2).

Nowhere is it stated that one can have the mark and still make it into Heaven or God's Kingdom. For overcoming the mark of the beast are those who are in God's Kingdom.


2) Suicide...again you are defining things to fit what you want them to say. First you have to define suicide as murder. The Bible actually refers to murder as one person taking another person's life...so self is not included in that definition actually.

Murder is taking a life wrongfully. If you murder yourself it is called "self murder" or "suicide", you are taking your own life wrongfully. Also, nowhere does the Bible approve of self murder, either. God says he will destroy those who defile or destroy his temple.

3) You completely got Hebrews 6 wrong. Hebrews 6 is in reference to who? OH YEA THE HEBREWS! This is to Jewish converts and is speaking about the Jews at this time. They had the good life when God was with them, before they rejected the Messiah. They tasted the heavenly gift. For them now they wait for the Messiah, which would mean to crucify Him again...which is not going to happen.

Yes, the author of Hebrews is speaking to certain Jewish Christians actions. This is true. But there were certain Jewish Christians who wanted to go back to the old religion of being a Jew again in order to avoid being persecuted for Christ. But if they were to do so, then they would be denying Jesus (Which is not possible because they would be denying Jesus as their Savior by such an action). Paul said that he was confident that his readers were not going to do this (Which is not the case for a certain group he believed had done so for him to mention such a thing).

If you were to apply these verses to Christians, you have to believe in losing salvation. And that once it is lost, it can never be regained because in order to be regained, you would have to sacrifice Christ all over again. And this is not taught anywhere in the Bible or even by most conditional security proponents.

No. There is a difference between apostacy (Rejecting Jesus as one's Savior) and backslidding into a life of sin like the Prodigal Son.

It is also important to note when studying blasphemy that it is not just the Holy Spirit that is cause for death.
Leviticus 24:16 Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death"

Blaspheming the Name of the Lord was cause for death.

So again if we are to understand the actions of blasphemy as being cause for death. In the OT the Holy Spirit was not an indwelling spirit. It was imparted to people but never imbued to people. Any action by the Holy Spirit under the old Covenant was temporary actions. So salvation was directly given through God. Under the new covenant the authority to grant salvation was given to Christ, by the imbuement of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit lives in us now. Blasphemy focus did not shift however, it stayed on the bearer of salvation. From God the Father to the Holy Spirit...if you reject God's grace and His offer of salvation in this life, you will never be forgiven even in the next life.

You are making huge leaps of assumption with the word "blasphemy" here. Nowhere is this specifically stated in the text that you are quoting.

Paul says he was a blasphemer as well. 1 Timothy 1:13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief.
Paul's own testimony expresses blasphemy as actions from unbelief.

Paul is not equating his blasphemy as being defined as unbelief. Paul's words of blasphemy were still blasphemy or insulting words upon the Lord. That has not changed. He also did not use bad words against the Holy Ghost, either. If Paul were to do so, he would have never been forgiven (even if he said this as an unbeliever).

Jesus' own words in Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with Me is against Me..." So even if you are not a violent aggressor such as Paul was before being shown mercy, if you are not saved then you are against Christ. So if you are against Christ as a passive unbeliever, you too can be considered blaspheming the bringer of salvation...the Holy Spirit.

But you are saying that rejecting the Lord is not unforgivable. But yet it is an unforgivable sin? You are not making any sense.


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But then you also ignore what was said as well. For in Mark 3 it says Christ said this because the Pharisees were saying "He (Christ) has an unclean spirit"
Without that specific line you do not even have your hypothesis to stand on. And that one specific line is in reference to Christ. It is not the works of God, it is not you or I having an unclean Spirit...it is Christ. So in the context of the verses you or I cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit because we were not there to say that Christ had an unclean spirit.

So for you to claim that this is reference to attributing the power of God to Satan, is applying an extension that is not even mentioned. It is an extension for you to think that if I were to cast out a demon and someone said it was by the power of Satan that I did it, that that person would be committing blaspheme against the Holy Spirit...because no where does it extend the person beyond Christ to the disciples. Nor do we ever hear any of the disciples rebuking anyone while they performed miracles, for claiming they were drunk or any other example of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It is only when applied to the subject of Christ. And only Christ's contemporaries are able to do that.

You can disagree with it all you want...but this is what fits into the Bible and does not conflict with the multitude of verses that explain that ALL sins can be forgiven. In your situation, there is exceptions and not ALL sins are forgiven.

Sorry, brotherjerry, but all you are doing is trying to soften and expand the words of Jesus beyond what He said. The passages are both very clear. Jesus said that one could say a word against the Father, and the Son, and it could be forgiven. But to say that the Holy Spirit's power is that of an unclean spirit will never be forgiven. It can't be done accidentally, it is not to reject Christ, because before we believed, we all rejected Christ. If that were unforgivable in this life, we are all lost. After death, all sins are unforgivable. But Jesus was not talking primarily of the next world, He was speaking of this world. He specifically answered the Pharisees and their claim that Jesus was using Satan's power to cast out demons. He condemned it, right then and there, and pronounced judgment on them, right then and there. He explained why, and made it plain.

Jason, if there were more than one unforgivable sin, don't you think that Jesus would have said something about it? In the case of suicide, how do you know that the person's last thought before death wasn't to repent and ask forgiveness for killing himself? You don't know that. I'm not excusing suicide, it is a terrible thing. And Scripture says, "Fear not him who kills the body, rather, fear Him who can destroy both the body and soul in hell".

The bottom line is, too many people are complicating and spreading confusion over a very clear couple of passages in Scripture. They are adding to the words of Jesus without warrant, and are trying to bend His words to fit their particular brand of theology. Why not just take the Scriptures at face value, and understand them for what they say, and what they don't say, and keep it clear? Both of you are trying to make sweeping theological statements without warrant, and against the plain meaning of Jesus' own words.
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Jason, if there were more than one unforgivable sin, don't you think that Jesus would have said something about it?

Jesus did not say that blasphemy of the Holy Ghost was the only unforgivable sin. He never said anything like that. Also, Jesus does not need to mention these other unforgivable sins because they are mentioned elswhere within His Word.

In the case of suicide, how do you know that the person's last thought before death wasn't to repent and ask forgiveness for killing himself? You don't know that. I'm not excusing suicide, it is a terrible thing. And Scripture says, "Fear not him who kills the body, rather, fear Him who can destroy both the body and soul in hell".

You can only confess a sin that has already passed; And you can't confess of your sin when you are dead. You cannot plan on doing a sin and then confess it hoping God will forgive you. It doesn't work like that. Forgiveness is only available if you have committed a past sin. God cannot agree with your future willful sin to do evil. For Judas was sorrowful over his sin of betraying the Lord and yet he committed suicide. Judas was not saved. Nobody who commits suicide and stays dead is not saved (Because there are no second chances beyond the grave).

The bottom line is, too many people are complicating and spreading confusion over a very clear couple of passages in Scripture. They are adding to the words of Jesus without warrant, and are trying to bend His words to fit their particular brand of theology. Why not just take the Scriptures at face value, and understand them for what they say, and what they don't say, and keep it clear? Both of you are trying to make sweeping theological statements without warrant, and against the plain meaning of Jesus' own words.

Well, in my case, you would be wrong. I do take God's Word at face value. 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. When a person murders themselves, they are a murderer. 1 Corinthians 3:17 (NIV) says, "If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple." 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. You can't confess sins that you are going to do or confess sins after you are dead. 1 John 1:9 (cf. 1 John 2:1) and the rest of Scripture does not allow for such a wrong belief.


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In fact, blasphemy of the Holy Ghost proves that Eternal Security is false. It means that there is something that a believer can do that would remove their good standing before God. But men do not like that interpretation, so they seek to change God's Word in what it plainly says.


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brotherjerry

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Jason

This is called putting in place something that we are familar with (blaspheming) and comparing it to treacherous acts.
You apparently have an issue with the English language?
"...have blasphemed Me BY acting treacherously against Me" They have committed blasphemy....they did it by acting treacherously. This is not a comparison, it is not a substitution. The word is "by" not "like" or "as if". One is the actions that defines the term. Kind of like "You commited murder by shooting that person" You are not comparing or substituting anything...you are explaining how it is you commited murder.

And yes what does blasphemy mean? Let's pull out the Meriam Webster again shall we -
"the ACT of insutling or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God" Ezekiel 20:27, 2 Kings 19, Isaiah 37.
"the ACT of claiming the attributes of deity" John 10

Actually, if Jesus was not God, then they would be correct in their charge against Jesus. For no man can claim that he is God without insulting the Lord. But Jesus had the right to make the claim that He was God.
The only people disagreeing with you are the Jews. They called Christ a blasphemer because He claimed to be God. (And like you I agree that Christ was right)....but it goes to show another definition of blasphemy.

Read 2 Kings 19 a little more closely. In verse 4 it says this,
Yes maybe you should...read it closer.
What does verse 23 say Sennacherib claims to have done? He did not just give God a tongue lashing did he? "With my chariots I came up to the heights of the mountains, to the remotest parts of Lebanon; And I cut down all its tall cedars and its choice cypresses. And I entered its farthest lodging places, its thickest forest." This is what Sennecherib "reproached the Lord" Not only through his words, but also by his actions Sennecherib blasphemed the loard....Reproach is and expression of rebuke which is speaking in angry and critical ways...it is verbal. If blasphemy is only verbal, then it was redundant to say "reproached and blasphemed" in 2 Kings 19:22

No. Matthew 12:32 says in the world to come you will also not be forgiven. The spirit world is not a world that is coming. The spiritual kingdom of God exists now. The world to come is the Millennium. To interpret that any other way is a gross interpretation of what it is plainly saying.
Not a gross interpretation at all. No matter how you look at it...rejection of the Holy Spirit in this world will get you no forgiveness...every...in this world or a thousand other worlds to come (if there were a thousand worlds to come). Christ used that as an emphasis to say that this is your one chance to seek forgiveness. There are no second chances.

Murder is taking a life wrongfully. If you murder yourself it is called "self murder" or "suicide", you are taking your own life wrongfully. Also, nowhere does the Bible approve of self murder, either. God says he will destroy those who defile or destroy his temple.
If I am to remain consistent in definitions by using Merriam I concede this point. However, on legal grounds as far as the law is concerned these are two different things..murder is defined as wrongfully taking another persons life. And I agree that the Bible would not condone it. However, consider this...if someone throws themselves off a bridge and repents on the way down, are they forgiven? Your comment about asking forgiveness can only come after the fact is not actually true, it can come during the act.

You are making huge leaps of assumption with the word "blasphemy" here. Nowhere is this specifically stated in the text that you are quoting.
not stated in the text? Did you not read Leviticus 24:16 "the one who blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death"
And I am not making leaps, I am actually the one understanding the definition of blasphemy and not putting it in a box that it does not fit into. Blaphemy by definition is not restricted to verbal utterances. Quit trying to put it in that box.

Paul is not equating his blasphemy as being defined as unbelief.
no he is not...but he is saying that his blasphemy is because of his unbelief.

He also did not use bad words against the Holy Ghost, either.
Does he say never did that? What verse says that? All I see is Paul admitting he was a blasphemer. Paul says later in 1 Timothy 1:15 that he was the foremost of all sinners. I guess that was not true was it...for you would say that those that blasphemed the Holy Spirit never received forgiveness....thus they must have been foremost of all sinners right? So did Paul lie, or did Christ? OR is blaspheming the Holy Spirit rejecting the Grace of God in this life.

But you are saying that rejecting the Lord is not unforgivable. But yet it is an unforgivable sin? You are not making any sense.
If you reject the grace of God in this life, that is if you die in this life rejecting the grace of God, then you have commited the unforgivable sin, you have shown no reverence to God, you have shown great disrespect towards God by refusing His free gift of salvation. Sorry if that was not clear in my post.
 
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Sorry, brotherjerry, but all you are doing is trying to soften and expand the words of Jesus beyond what He said. The passages are both very clear. Jesus said that one could say a word against the Father, and the Son, and it could be forgiven. But to say that the Holy Spirit's power is that of an unclean spirit will never be forgiven. It can't be done accidentally, it is not to reject Christ, because before we believed, we all rejected Christ. If that were unforgivable in this life, we are all lost. After death, all sins are unforgivable. But Jesus was not talking primarily of the next world, He was speaking of this world. He specifically answered the Pharisees and their claim that Jesus was using Satan's power to cast out demons. He condemned it, right then and there, and pronounced judgment on them, right then and there. He explained why, and made it plain.

Jason, if there were more than one unforgivable sin, don't you think that Jesus would have said something about it? In the case of suicide, how do you know that the person's last thought before death wasn't to repent and ask forgiveness for killing himself? You don't know that. I'm not excusing suicide, it is a terrible thing. And Scripture says, "Fear not him who kills the body, rather, fear Him who can destroy both the body and soul in hell".

The bottom line is, too many people are complicating and spreading confusion over a very clear couple of passages in Scripture. They are adding to the words of Jesus without warrant, and are trying to bend His words to fit their particular brand of theology. Why not just take the Scriptures at face value, and understand them for what they say, and what they don't say, and keep it clear? Both of you are trying to make sweeping theological statements without warrant, and against the plain meaning of Jesus' own words.
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Actually NBF what I am doing is not putting the definition of blasphemy into a box that it does not belong. It is not defined as just mere words, it also includes actions, thoughts, words, etc. It is showing disrespect to God, irreverence to God. This is done not just by words, but by the heart.
 
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